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CKPR's 7mm pre-grouping modelling


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I'm starting a new topic for my next modelling project, making a  7mm model of Brampton Town as rebuilt and run by the NER. This will, of course, be strictly pre-grouping as the prototype was closed by 1923 ! As for reference material,  I've long had both J.N.Charters' "The Brampton Railway" and Webb & Gordon's "Lord Carlisle's Railways" in my railway library but any suggestions for other books, articles, etc will be most welcome. One thing I do know is that the passenger service in NER days was operated by a BTP & auto-coach combination and the BTP is one of my favourite locomotives, so the Gladiator Models kit is being eyed up (more US brass may need to be sold off to cover this). Regarding the autocoach, I'm planning on building this out of plasticard a la David Jenkinson - I've done this sort of work before in 4mm (e.g. M&CR horseboxes passim) and reckon that it should be more straightforward  in 7mm. Also, I only need to build one coach, which makes life a lot easier.  For rolling stock, I've bought a Slater's NER hopper kit to get a feel for 7mm work and whilst this is probably too big for Brampton Town, the 4mm version has long been one of my favourite kits after I bought my first one from Slaters at the York show in 1977-78.  I'm also eyeing up the Connoisseur Models NER V4 brake van, which I'm pretty sure was used on the Carlisle to Brampton Town goods services  - I think that there's a picture in one of the Ken Hoole books showing a  '398' with a very short goods train tailed by a V4. Now, I know it's not necessarily prototypical but has anyone got a Mike Models 7mm NER water crane or a 3H cattle wagon kit going spare ?!

 

Update (21/08/21) - I've got the 3H cattle wagon and this thread has evolved into a bicameral project on modelling two of the more obscure branchlines that were closely aligned with and/or run by the NER, namely the line to Brampton Town and the North Sunderland Rly. 

Edited by CKPR
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Interesting project! I have a NER Days kit for a V2 brake van available if you’re interested, with Slaters wheels. i dont know if one ran there.

 

Dava

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The NER V1, V3 & V4 brake vans I know, but not the V2 and I sold my copy of the NER brake van book only a few months ago - my favourite of the NER brake vans is  outside framed variant that I always call a 'Waskerley' van.

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Hurray! I am delighted by this development.  The Brampton is one of my favourites, and has cropped up here in a couple of places.

 

You will, then, be setting the model in the 1913-1923 period.  The good people of Brampton long felt the need for a passengers service and we have talked in this section before of the service they finally won from the private mineral line in the 1880s to Brampton Staith, using superannuated ex-LNWR coaches with a rather industrial 0-4-0T that, IIRC, was not even able to run round the train at Brampton. The Board of Trade took one look and promptly closed it down.

 

Brampton had to wait until 1913 for the NER to take over and run a passenger service from Brampton Staith, re-christened Brampton Town, to its Brampton Junction station. As you say, the service only lasted a decade, and was a BTP-worked motor train service.

 

Do you intend to model the staith itself, because it comes off at rather an angle, making for a more cumbersome subject?

 

There is no point reproducing the photographs published in the two books, which you both have, but you may not have seen the black and white ones below, as they were kindly provided to me by the father of the proprietor of the Carlisle model shop,  The colour ones that follow are mine, from a pre-Plague expedition that I made with @runs as required 

 

Below is a scene at Brampton Junction, one of a number of pictures of the opening, but you get a good view of the train. 

 

2042907443_BramptonJunctionreopening31July1913.jpg.93eb1ba88e918bcf67096e382e7d0e77.jpg

 

The optimism of opening day, 31 July 1913:

 

1535100544_BramptonStaith-Townstationreopening31_07.1913no.4.jpg.e4636e446628b10920f842d48200d0e3.jpg

 

Nearest map survey date is 1925, but still shows the station buildings:

 

540059608_1925BramptonMap.jpg.b373ebb25a7a0897dfbf4775c0d76bd9.jpg

 

All that remained of Brampton Town station by 1925:

 

29002110_BramptonStaith-Townstationremains1925.jpg.72e537c3b63f70ec405c865d3cd375aa.jpg

 

Now, rather less remains:

 

1931579169_BramptonStaith(7).JPG.313a79a7712964da8003e9fbb6daebde.JPG

 

At Brampton Town the rather beautiful 1836 stone bridge was unsentimentally replaced with girders by the NER. It, too, has gone, but the abutments remain.

 

1096293996_BramptonStaith-Townstation-NERplategirderbridge.jpg.43083b06fab0c9e6cf6ea166bcd320ce.jpg

 

Below we get a rare, possibly unique view along the bridge, on opening day.

 

1203917078_BramptonStaith-Townstationreopening31_07.1913no.1.jpg.1efaa166f93891834102ba5ec4c2e9ff.jpg

 

The remains of the bridge today:

 

245320753_BramptonStaith(15).JPG.fc18b1f0cbc3c44f2a33b387898dd50b.JPG

 

1999698920_BramptonStaith(18).JPG.f151e21a1c0452fe6fd93eec36df6159.JPG

 

1298273783_BramptonStaith(19).JPG.4911827baf3f86d1a808fed1b73bc276.JPG

 

1265560737_BramptonStaith(24).JPG.d0ce0830e43aa8e56aabb43527ad3c27.JPG

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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Thank you so much as these are really useful pictures that I didn't have - I'm particularly taken with the small stub of a siding shown on the 1925 photograph (I think this is a relic from the pre-NER days), which has echoes of  a similar end of platform arrangement on  'Castle Rackrent'.   I'm definitely setting my model in the 1913-21 period of NER operation, although 'Dandie Dimont' might make future appearance chez CKPR but in 4mm and in the guise of one her M&CR cousins as I have the chassis frames in a box somewhere.  I do rather like the arrangement with the coal staith at Brampton Town, awkward as it is, and was thinking about some sort of sub-assembly that could be detached for storage.

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27 minutes ago, CKPR said:

Thank you so much as these are really useful pictures that I didn't have - I'm particularly taken with the small stub of a siding shown on the 1925 photograph (I think this is a relic from the pre-NER days), which has echoes of  a similar end of platform arrangement on  'Castle Rackrent'.   

 

Welcome. I expect you are able to make site visits, but I do have more very dull photographs of masonry, so shout if you want them and I'll PM them over.

 

Quote

I'm definitely setting my model in the 1913-21 period of NER operation

 

One motor coach or two!? 

 

The picture in Webb & Gordon (fig.44) shows one and the text says one was the usual, with "two or more carriages" only on special days (p96).  

 

Seems sensible to go with one. 

 

I have a 4mm BTP and the Langley motor coach etches.  I have been tempted!

 

 

Quote

although 'Dandie Dimont' might make future appearance but in 4mm and in the guise of one her M&CR cousins as I have the chassis frames in a box somewhere. 

 

 

Hard to resist:

 

2061111815_20190418Camera2376-Small.JPG.3b4a576edef48e43acbf54a8faa88971.JPG

 

 

Quote

I do rather like the arrangement with the coal staith at Brampton Town, awkward as it is, and was thinking about some sort of sub-assembly that could be detached for storage.

 

That might complicate things, as it is the element of the site that might have changed. At some point it lost its upper storey and gained a wooden lean-to. I can't recall if the books record any of this.  The photograph I was given of the latter is dated 1920s, so could be post-closure of Brampton Town.  It's a great photo, but I wonder if the condition on opening day is the be the best option.

 

1299389876_BramptonStaith-CoalStaithe1920s.jpg.0db43087365370748ac930ffa69562c8.jpg

 

996625709_20190418Camera2380.JPG.581fbcd0b3a6c4969505924ab73e4838.JPG

 

If modelling the staith, it would seem churlish not to include the weigh house (seen above left).  The garage owner informed us that gentlemen from York had come to take it away. No one seems to have seen it since, so this picture might help: 

 

112316544_BramptonStaith-Weighhouse.jpg.a26c4c343d17765f33eac3ab5cc2085e.jpg

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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1 hour ago, CKPR said:

Thank you so much as these are really useful pictures that I didn't have - I'm particularly taken with the small stub of a siding shown on the 1925 photograph (I think this is a relic from the pre-NER days), which has echoes of  a similar end of platform arrangement on  'Castle Rackrent'.   

 

You are quite right, I think, in taking the stub-siding as dating from pre-NER days, but it looks as if it did not survive and that the photograph is wrongly dated.

 

I have relied upon the captions I have been given, yet, on reflection, I do not see how this picture can be post-closure, rather, is it not more likely to be pre-opening?

 

Look at the 1913 opening day bridge shot below. No stub siding or steps but a nice new platform ramp.

 

1203917078_BramptonStaith-Townstationreopening31_07.1913no.1.jpg.jpg.67ba5c8971415182e97bb5ed7a9d30b3.jpg

 

Now look at the picture ostensibly from 1925 and see how, in fact, it matches the plan dated 1909.

 

 

29002110_BramptonStaith-Townstationremains1925.jpg.72e537c3b63f7.jpg.bd7952386957de9b0ed5fc317668d629.jpg

1132755163_20190418Camera2374.JPG.c30573ae19557d1aee48df2ad15c2e65.JPG

 

So, the "1925" picture isn't (and isn't really of any value to you), as it shows the period between the cessation of the 1881 passenger service and the rebuilding of the station as Brampton Town by the NER.

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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Again, many thanks as this is really useful material, especially the photograph of the office building, which had already taken my fancy. I think you're right about the incorrect date of the supposed '1925' picture...but, it's a nice feature and I'm prone to the occasional use of my modeller's licence. As for one auto-coach or two, definitely just the one (at least to begin with !). 

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I'm looking forward to seeing progress on this CKPR. 

 

I spotted that Skytrex produces an LNER/NER Standard Water Crane in 7mm scale: 

 

https://skytrex.com/collections/o-gauge/products/7-222-lner-ner-standard-water-crane

 

I wasn't sure if this was the same prototype as that formerly produced by Mike's Models? 

 

 

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More material for Brampton Town has just arrived in the post with the gift of some very nice wagon parts from @airnimal, for which many thanks, and a copy of Ken Hoole's  "Branch line trains in the north-east". The latter contained the photograph that I always thought was described as a Carlisle-Brampton Town goods train, but is described  here as merely a train at Carlisle. Still, it is eminently modelable in its entirety as 'my' Carlisle-Brampton Town goods train - shall we presume a van load of fertiliser  / animal feed from Bristol in the iron mink and some biscuits /or flour from Carrs in the NBR van ? I do like the GNR open, even though the GNR always seemed like a 'southern' line to a Cumbrian like me, and it has the look of a  nice old-fashioned  'O' gauge wagon such as might have been made by LMC or Milbro. Re-acquainting myself with the Fletcher 0-6-0 suggests to me that some judicious scribing round of parts from the 'BTP' kit might be  order...

NER 0-6-0.jpg

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Ah, now that would a be coals to Newcastle, or rather flour to Carlisle scenario given the enormous Carrs' flour mill at Silloth with a direct connection to Carlisle via the NBR branch to Silloth. Carrs are still in the flour milling business at Silloth and their old biscuit factory in Carlisle (think 'Carrs Table Water Biscuits' aka the Cumbrian matzo) is now owned by Nasbisco and also still in business (the factory is adjacent to the route of the old line to Silloth).

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Whilst I'm gathering materials, not to mention raising funds, for Brampton Town I thought I'd mither you all with some of long background behind this move into 'O' gauge [sorry, I just prefer it to the more clinical '7mm'), failing close-up eyesight not withstanding. I've always liked old-school 'O' gauge layouts, both coarse scale (LMC & Milbro standard rather than Hornby toy trains) systems such as the "Millport & Selfield"  and more modern lines such as the MMRS "Ashton & Cornbrook", Dave Walker's Scottish and Irish layouts, Frank Roomes' "Lutton" and the masterpiece itself, Richard Chown's "Castle Rackrent".  As I said earlier, the modern r-t-r and r-t-p school of 'O' gauge modelling holds no appeal at all for me, but I might change my mind if any of the Naworth Coal Co.  locos appear in the Minerva range. Now this is probably rank heresy, but some of the more lauded 7mm layouts by former EM and P4 modellers, whilst technically excellent, just left me cold as they seemed to have none of the atmosphere of their work in 4mm.  Then again, I prefer Tri-ang to Hornby Dublo and have always been something of an impressionist modeller. In the end, I think it's that elusive atmosphere, and the tangential link to the early days of the hobby, that is the allure of  'O' gauge.

 

Another personal factor is the link to my modelling apprenticeship in the 1970s, served not with model railways but with 1/35 and 1/48 AFVs  - opening the Slaters NER hopper wagon kit was akin to opening a Tamiya model kit in terms of the size and feel of the parts. Enough rambling, there are two Japanese brass locos waiting to be photographed and put up for auction on Ebay.

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On 09/06/2021 at 12:57, CKPR said:

More material for Brampton Town has just arrived in the post with the gift of some very nice wagon parts from @airnimal, for which many thanks, and a copy of Ken Hoole's  "Branch line trains in the north-east". The latter contained the photograph that I always thought was described as a Carlisle-Brampton Town goods train, but is described  here as merely a train at Carlisle. Still, it is eminently modelable in its entirety as 'my' Carlisle-Brampton Town goods train - shall we presume a van load of fertiliser  / animal feed from Bristol in the iron mink and some biscuits /or flour from Carrs in the NBR van ? 

 

I'm afraid I don't think one can speculate even that much on the point of origin of the loads for each vehicle there, as the photo is evidently post-Great War (note the 16" GW on the iron mink) and hence pooling of ordinary opens and vans is the order of the day. A nice selection of vehicles there though.

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I've been known to be whimsically obsessive regarding such things as wagon loads (my 'Cumberland Granite Co'. wagon was loaded with, well, granite from Embleton quarry) and loco coal ( my FR engines have coal from a lump found on the C&WJR), so imagine what I might get up to in the larger scale. Obviously the vans will need proper loads and sticking with my presumptions, whilst sewing up the fertiliser bags will be fiddly but straightforward and grinding down the fertiliser somewhat unpleasant but necessary, I'm already wondering how I'll  get the necessary uniformity of size and bake for the biscuits. Why are you all looking at me like that - surely this is what everyone does in the 'senior scale', right ?!

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"the Cumbrian matzo". love it. Water biscuits are the only thing I'll let near my cheese. 

 

As to the photograph, I'm not sure it is of much use save for the most general inspiration unless you want to run trains right at the end of your 1913-1923 timeframe. Of course I don't think the passenger service ran even that long, IIRC it was suspended during the hostilities, but was re-introduced post-War.

 

An antidote to the dullness of limited branch line traffic, without over loading a prototype layout with unprototypical stock, is to run a succession of trains through time.  Here I suspect that this possibility mainly only exists with regards to goods traffic, with an early and a late period option.

 

The locomotive is in the unlined black livery introduced in March 1917, so it's post that date and, IIRC, wagon pooling was introduced c.1917.

 

The NER covered wagon and brake are in the post 1911 livery. The GNR in post 1898, so they don't add much in terms of dating.

 

Stephen is, in my view, correct to point to the GW iron mink as the most reliable guide as to date. Comparing the picture with oblique views of iron minks with the 1904 25" initials, I concur that these are the 16" high letters, not introduced until 1921.  The wagon lacks any brakes on the visible side, however, which suggests earlier than c.1930 (single brakes were progressively fitted on the unbraked side, largely in the 1927-1929 period) and the door lacks the retention catches fitted from the mid-twenties.

 

We are, I therefore estimate, looking at a train in the 1921-c.1926 period, and certainly post War and post pool. 

 

As a late pre- or early post- Grouping train, I don't see why it should not run into Brampton Town at the end of period it functioned as a NE passenger station. However, I would be cautious about using a back-dated version to represent a pre-War, pre-pool, goods train, though the general length and composition of the train seems perfectly suitable for the branch.

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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If we're talking post-1917 and the pooling of wagons, I shall presume that all vans from all companies are conveying the output of the 'West Cumberland Fresh Air Company'  from their factories in Cleator Moor and Moss Bay.

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40 minutes ago, CKPR said:

If we're talking post-1917 and the pooling of wagons, I shall presume that all vans from all companies are conveying the output of the 'West Cumberland Fresh Air Company'  from their factories in Cleator Moor and Moss Bay.

 

I could certainly do with a good dose. A fitted van-full consigned to Earley by express goods train, please!

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One good thing about this O gauge lark is there is no such thing as an impulse purchase, least not on my budget anyway ! Some plain track has been procured and I hope to make a start on the NER hopper wagon later this week, whilst funds are slowly accumulating for the BTP and brake van kits.

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13 hours ago, CKPR said:

One good thing about this O gauge lark is there is no such thing as an impulse purchase, least not on my budget anyway

 

until you see a half built wagon for £10 on a second hand stall at an exhibition, ive done it a few times

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Sufficient 'O' gauge track and half the necessary point work has been procured  - I'm going for the same specification as in my 'EM' work, namely Marcway points [with some cosmetic additions and general tweaking] and flexitrack, in this case PECO, and in true minor branch-line style, it's all second-hand !

Edited by CKPR
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I must not contemplate modelling Seahouses c.1946-51

I must not contemplate modelling Seahouses c.1946-51

I must not contemplate modelling Seahouses c.1946-51

I must not contemplate modelling Seahouses c.1946-51

I must not contemplate modelling Seahouses c.1946-51

I must not contemplate modelling Seahouses c.1946-51

etc, etc

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