PECO Summer Update 2021

[Grizz]

Stating the bleeding obvious, If a product isn’t available in RTR then there are two options. Wait for it to be available or see if a kit is available.
 

Then two further options arise. If a kit is available, either a body has the required skills to make it or they don’t.
 

If they don’t then get someone who has the skills to make it and pay them. Simple really. 
 

Planning a layout around an item of ‘announced’ RTR to be released at a future date is, to say the least, courageous. Had I carried out my plan to build a OO Gauge layout and focus it around the Dapol Class 59, I’d still be stuck with the RTR Lima ones or I’d have had to chop up a 66 and bash it. The UK market is small when compared with the US, however I believe we are very fortunate to have a company such as Peco supplying products, based here in the UK. Just check out the cost of some other suppliers of track systems in Euro, and then it’s gotta be shipped over. 

[Darius43]

1 hour ago, RBAGE said:

I would suggest that you take a walk on the wild side and have a look at these kits. It looks like the range will develop a lot quicker than PECO bullhead range and you might enjoy the assembly.

The point bases can be adjusted to produce curved points. Diamonds and slips are in the plan and the prices are considerably lower than PECO bullhead.

I started building with PECO bullhead and I am sick of waiting for diamonds. I am aware that there has been a pandemic and that PECO have redirected their production to support but these crossings were promised long before COVID-19. Yes, it's not the end of the world but it's not surprising that people were frustrated about delays, long before the current issues.

Although the linked product is compatible with PECO bullhead, I have lifted all my PECO points, with some losses. I plan to replace with Finetrax product because of their ability to be used to produce "flowing" formations relatively easily, because the lead times for new products is expected to be better than PECO and because of the price.

I already have 6 and they looks superb.

Don't take my word for it. Have a look. 

 

Thanks for posting the link - I have read through the posts and taken the plunge and ordered a couple of RH OO turnouts.  

 

Looking forward to my first attempts at kit-building pointwork.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[NFWEM57]

On 14/06/2021 at 11:59, RBAGE said:

I accept that PECO are making a business decision and that's as it should be, but to suggest that they are a benevolent organisation, dedicated to the "British hobby" is a mistake.

Being a cynical old individual, might I suggest that their priorities, quite rightly, are not driven now, as they have not been driven in seven decades, by the "British hobby". 

Why do you suppose it has taken seven decades to provide a product designed for the "British hobby"?

I suspect that their priorities are driven, quite rightly, by other markets, most notably the American hobby.

 

PECO do know what they are doing, and they have been doing it for seven decades. Apparently.

Absolutely spot on.  The UK market is a side show for PECO, their priority is their significant overseas market, that is where the profit is.  Remember Encyclopedia Britannica? Killed off by the CD/DVD almost overnight.   Well. 3D printing is improving every day and as a result bespoke quality products are appearing all the time.  It is likely that British Finescale will have a comprehensive range of inexpensive, accurate and realistic BH & FB turnout products in OO and other gauges (EM already available, 3mm & 2mm under development now) long before PECO will produce their 'set track' sized BH turnouts.  A long overdue game changer.  If you want to see the likely OO/EM range, check out the existing British Finescale N gauge range.   PECO streamline demand may be higher than ever, but in the UK, or overseas?  Probably the latter...!  That is where the profit is for PECO, that is their driver, company law..!

Edited June 20, 2021 by NFWEM57
missing letter

[PaulRhB]

6 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

The UK market is a side show for PECO, their priority is their significant overseas market

Don’t forget how many ranges Peco make Only the track and its accessories has a significant overseas market. All their other lines, Ratio, Parkside, O16.5 kits Rtr N and 009 etc are UK centric and new products due this year in that 21 announcement.
The US track is one of the core ranges they are concentrating on at present but so is the code 100 and 75 for UK and Europe and the ‘sideshow’ got the first re-stocks. 
Bullhead new products are just on hold while they restock but losing nearly 12 months normal production rates and the factory alterations for distancing is going to mean that extra capacity is going to be used for catch-up for the next 6-12 months at a guess. 

[NFWEM57]

3 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Don’t forget how many ranges Peco make Only the track and its accessories has a significant overseas market. All their other lines, Ratio, Parkside, O16.5 kits Rtr N and 009 etc are UK centric and new products due this year in that 21 announcement.
The US track is one of the core ranges they are concentrating on at present but so is the code 100 and 75 for UK and Europe and the ‘sideshow’ got the first re-stocks. 
Bullhead new products are just on hold while they restock but losing nearly 12 months normal production rates and the factory alterations for distancing is going to mean that extra capacity is going to be used for catch-up for the next 6-12 months at a guess. 

I accept the other lines (no pun) are UK centric but reading through, I think the discussion in this thread is mainly about track, and that is the subject of my comments.  And as you say US track is their focus at present.   I guess, for track and track accessories, it depends on whether you think PECO have international sales to support developments for the UK market or not.  I returned to model railway after a 50 year break, was amazed at the quality of rolling stock but dismayed at the limited track options, train set PECO or expensive and fiddly, but prototypical, C&L and the like.  Luckily, as I started up the hobby again, EMGS had developed their 'ready to lay' B6 turnout range and British Finescale had begun development of easy build OO and EM turnouts beginning with a B7.   I did enquire of PECO about a year ago about more prototypical turnouts and more EM gauge but the answer back was they would be doing business as usual for track.   So, PECO are not in the game of satisfying the serious UK railway modelling demand for track.  And, as awareness of better products, and demand/availability builds up, PECO will have missed a golden opportunity, or more likely, chose to ignore it.   On the UK track market, will this be their Encyclopedia Britannica moment?

[ThaneofFife]

good to at least have the update so we know whats happening......

[PaulRhB]

20 minutes ago, NFWEM57 said:

And, as awareness of better products, and demand/availability builds up, PECO will have missed a golden opportunity, or more likely, chose to ignore it.

Agreed the topic has become track focused but I thought it necessary to point it out as the op was about all the ranges. 

I think there’s slightly deeper thought to it than many know from having visited the factory in a trade capacity many years ago  

They purposefully avoided bullhead etc, because it was available from smaller manufacturers, for many years until DCCconcepts announced their still to arrive range (points are still missing although some plain track was made). Peco had to react then to a big manufacturer threat but for many years their quiet policy has been not to trample on smaller makers products unnecessarily. 
Philip at C&L was rather unhappy about the bullhead range when I was chatting to him at a show a couple of years back. 
Peco have made the EM points on commission but not offered them separately, and as I understand it will not, to support the EMGS. 
Peco are very savvy in the market and will react when appropriate to their business but have continued the more ethical approach to supporting the hobby generally than the cutthroat attitude of Hornby recently. Just for a start imagine being the Editor of RM if they were perceived to be bully boy of the hobby  

I built Lulworth using off the shelf products from C&L and Marcway. The ‘serious’ Modeller has been able to build layouts to finer standards for a long time and there’s a fair smattering of Peco products also used on that. EM was the only missing rtr track range and I doubt it would support a comprehensive range without the Society support as it’s such a small proportion of the 4mm market. Peco have to operate on a commercial basis on that simply because of the increasing competition from others in their traditional markets so they can’t afford to unless there’s rtr stock to go with it. 
Peco will push in that area if they feel growth is likely as they have with rtr 009 stock to encourage two other manufacturers to introduce locos. 

Edited June 20, 2021 by PaulRhB

[Lambton58]

On 09/06/2021 at 20:30, Steamport Southport said:

Bullhead slips?

 

 

Bullhead Slips?  Wasn't he one of Chuffer Dandridge's old friends from his touring music hall days?  Probably had a novelty act juggling fishplates whilst balancing on a signal box lever and singing 'Oh Mr Porter' 

[1andrew1]

On 20/06/2021 at 01:58, NFWEM57 said:

Absolutely spot on.  The UK market is a side show for PECO, their priority is their significant overseas market, that is where the profit is.  

The UK market still accounts for 72% of the company's turnover, though. 

Europe accounts for 11% and other countries 17%.

I appreciate that Peco also has a visitor centre and miniature railway which will have been included in its UK turnover.

 

Source: See page 20 of accounts for y/e 30/4/20 https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00408782/filing-history

Edited June 22, 2021 by 1andrew1

[D9020 Nimbus]

So clearly the majority of their profit will be from the UK too.

 

I think the difference is that they believe they have no competition in the UK market, so they can't lose custom to other firms, but that isn’t the case in other markets. Otherwise there is no sense in their neglecting their primary market — they are clearly more interested in the US than UK market now.

[fezza]

What surprises me is that no other major manufacturer has come out to produce quality UK spec bullhead 00 track. Practically every 00 layout needs some of it and Peco's offering is not particularly outstanding and rather expensive, as many people on here have already said. What's stopping, say, Hornby coming in and cleaning up? Surely most steam modellers want to run on proper bullhead track, given the choice?

Edited June 22, 2021 by fezza

[Monkersson]

1 hour ago, fezza said:

What surprises me is that no other major manufacturer has come out to produce quality UK spec bullhead 00 track. Practically every 00 layout needs some of it and Peco's offering is not particularly outstanding and rather expensive, as many people on here have already said. What's stopping, say, Hornby coming in and cleaning up? Surely most steam modellers want to run on proper bullhead track, given the choice?

I would wager that no matter who came in to offer a range of bullhead trackwork would be charging at least the same as Peco do - tooling cost and material cost for those tools are increasing all the time.

 

I'd also wager that the majority of modellers (not just those on RMWeb or those who regularly buy magazines), steam or not, don't know nor care about the difference between bullhead and flatbottom rail.

 

I like the look of it and I would use it if a layout I was planning didn't need pointwork that wasn't available, though I might take a look at the kits referred to in earlier posts for my next UK layout.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Monkersson

[RBAGE]

3 minutes ago, Monkersson said:

I would wager that no matter who came in to offer a range of bullhead trackwork would be charging at least the same as Peco do - tooling cost and material cost for those tools are increasing all the time.

 

I'd also wager that the majority of modellers (not just those on RMWeb or those who regularly buy magazines), steam or not, dont know nor care about the difference between bullhead and flatbottom rail

You're probably correct. It's sad, in my humble opinion, that modellers crave delicate and fine detail on RTR locomotives, give less thought to the things they pull and almost no thought to the appearance of the things they run on.

Distance between the rails aside, surely the size and spacing of sleepers and timbers is just as important as, say, a detailed cab interior. You rarely see the cab interior but the track is always in plain sight.

[NickL2008]

That is disappointing news, I was hoping theyd be releasing the medium turnout soon, but looks like I'll have to find somewhere else to get that now 

 

NL

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, fezza said:

What surprises me is that no other major manufacturer has come out to produce quality UK spec bullhead 00 track.

DCC concepts started to but it went quiet after the first batch of track. 
I don’t think many above realise how labour intensive making track is. Tillig is comparable in price to Peco, Marklin and Roco quite a bit more and with built in roadbed so you’re locked into set-track effectively and Ferro-Suisse is eye watering at around ten times the Peco price for points!

5 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

think the difference is that they believe they have no competition in the UK market,

Er, Hornby? For new starters Hornby is the default track system not Peco. Peco have built their brand on the better range and quality over the ones produced by Hornby and others here. Peco have grown the US market because their system with built in springs is user friendly compared to some the better traditional US makers. 
How many UK companies have taken on the US and become a major force there? Hornby? They’ve done ok with Corgi but even 20 years ago when I dealt with that they were short changing UK shops on Corgi to try and break the US. 

If Peco is so bad why are so many bemoaning this delay rather than jumping elsewhere? Marcway, C&L, SMP etc should be snowed under soon  

Fact is Peco make a quality product, there are minor flaws but still better than any other rtr system in its range and flexibility. 

[Wheatley]

4 hours ago, fezza said:

What surprises me is that no other major manufacturer has come out to produce quality UK spec bullhead 00 track. 

Because it is delicate and not particularly robust, due to the nature of the real thing. It is therefore not suitable for the mass trainset market. As a result it has always been a niche product at the finescale end of the market for the minority who aren't prepared to settle for the various iterations of HO flat bottomed available. 

[Chris M]

I'm a bit surprised by the animosity towards Peco here. Here's why I think Peco are a great company:-

1. They are a British  family owned company that are still run mostly by later genertions of the family that started it.  They have not sold out to anyone.

2. The owners really do care about model railways as a hobby and are very supportive. I know this because I have spoken with a few of the directors over the years. Yes I'm sure making a profit is important and I hope they continue to be a successful business.

3. When everyone was shifting production to China Peco kept most of their production in the UK which is good for the British economy (especially that of South Devon).

4. Most of what they make is of good quality and at a very reasonable price.

5. Aside from track Peco make a very large range of all those little things that are so important to us layout builders. I'm thinking products by Ratio, Wills, Parkside, Model Scene, Dundas, Harburn Hobbies and Tracksetta. Maybe one day we will all be buying 3D prints for these accessories but I think that is some time away yet. I wonder how many photos of layouts that we see include at least one product from the Peco stable?

6. They make the Peco N gauge wagons both ready to run and kits. Yes the chassis are chunky by today's standards but in a passing rake of wagons from various manufacturers the Peco ones look absolutely fine. The great thing about these wagons is their price compared to a certain other manufacturer who make everything in China.

7. They publish the best UK model railway magazine. Apologies to the mods for this but it is my opinion. I do recognise that all of the model railway magazines are very good and that all the staff work very hard to produce great magazines.

8. They publish a range of "shows you how" booklets.

 

I have made my own bullhead track back in the 1980s. It looked great and, despite the points being kit built by me, it worked very well. I reverted to Peco track in all subsequent layouts and am very happy with it. I do N these days and have been tempted by Finetracks but decided that life was just too short to make my own track again. I admire those that do make their own though.

 

Bearing in mind that they had some very big problems last year its good to see them moving forwards again. Long may they continue.

[Hibelroad]

I’m sure that Peco know what they are doing and will concentrate on the core products. My thoughts regarding the Bullhead track is that by the time a modeller gets to worry about how realistic the track work is their thoughts must turn to making their own track and escaping the fixed geometry of the commercial product. There is a market for the new track but it may not be that large as many will be content to use the cheaper current ranges. 

[NFWEM57]

21 hours ago, Hibelroad said:

I’m sure that Peco know what they are doing and will concentrate on the core products. My thoughts regarding the Bullhead track is that by the time a modeller gets to worry about how realistic the track work is their thoughts must turn to making their own track and escaping the fixed geometry of the commercial product. There is a market for the new track but it may not be that large as many will be content to use the cheaper current ranges. 

With respect to track, not other products, is it a small market because there has only been, until very recently, Hobson's choice, i.e. PECO or (complicated) build your won?  The market has not really been properly tested..!

As for other PECO products, I buy them all the time, semaphore signals, wagon kits, etc.  It is just the track issue that is so frustrating.

[PaulRhB]

50 minutes ago, NFWEM57 said:

With respect to track, not other products, is it a small market because there has only been, until very recently, Hobson's choice, i.e. PECO or (complicated) build your won? 

But that’s it, only Peco have actually invested in tooling because it’s very expensive and consequently so are the end products a little more compared to the standard ranges. The only other to announce rtr bullhead points still hasn’t delivered any . . . 

There’s still the option of hand built ready to run from Marcway but there’s no chairs or wood grain so lacking in detail compared to the Peco product although very good quality build. 

I suspect the ‘market test’ of sales so far has actually resulted in Peco concentrating on the code 75 & 100 standard ranges while they are still dealing with the restrictions. It’s going to take time to establish that range simply because if you’re extending an existing layout you’ll match the older style and the number of new layouts buying large quantities of it won’t take off until there’s a wider range. Catch 22 on that for them so serving the established market has to take priority in these unusual circumstances. When you’ve taken the financial hit of the last 15 months in ppe, production and the visitor centre still closed it’s not the time to be investing in a new range and limiting production of the existing ones there’s heavy demand for  

It’s coming still, that’s what matters. 

[Chris M]

2 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

With respect to track, not other products, is it a small market because there has only been, until very recently, Hobson's choice, i.e. PECO or (complicated) build your won?  The market has not really been properly tested..!

As for other PECO products, I buy them all the time, semaphore signals, wagon kits, etc.  It is just the track issue that is so frustrating.

Hardly Hinson’s choice. There has been track available from Triang or Hornby since the day I was born. GEM made flexible track and points many years ago. Hornby Dublo and I think Wrenn have also made track. All the main non UK manufacturers also make track and sell it in the UK. SMP and C&L track has been available for as long as I can remember. In N many folk like Kato track. So there has always been plenty of competition for Peco and there is absolutely nothing to stop anyone new coming into the marketplace with a new range of track. I can only think that Peco’s dominance is because they provide exactly what the majority of modellers want. I’m sure Peco will progress with the bullhead track once they have got over all of the current issues. I hear they  had a major IT issue to deal with last year as well as Covid. This was very serious and caused a huge amount of additional work for the staff . For instance I’m told they had to rebuild the N gauge wagon graphics from scratch . I don’t know any more than that, and nor should I, but I can understand if new development work has been delayed.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

Hardly Hinson’s choice. There has been track available from Triang or Hornby since the day I was born. GEM made flexible track and points many years ago. Hornby Dublo and I think Wrenn have also made track. All the main non UK manufacturers also make track and sell it in the UK. SMP and C&L track has been available for as long as I can remember. In N many folk like Kato track. So there has always been plenty of competition for Peco and there is absolutely nothing to stop anyone new coming into the marketplace with a new range of track. I can only think that Peco’s dominance is because they provide exactly what the majority of modellers want. I’m sure Peco will progress with the bullhead track once they have got over all of the current issues. I hear they  had a major IT issue to deal with last year as well as Covid. This was very serious and caused a huge amount of additional work for the staff . For instance I’m told they had to rebuild the N gauge wagon graphics from scratch . I don’t know any more than that, and nor should I, but I can understand if new development work has been delayed.

You forgot Graham Farish whose 00 track was at one time in direct competition with Peco and was in many respects rather more realistic apart from its moulded plastic crossings and its range of pointwork was far, far, better sooner than Peco's.  GEM came a long later and never really developed as a range with no more than flextrack (very nice) and ewither left hand or right hand poiints (also good); the plastic mouldings for its track were made by R who I think also made the tooling.

 

But for r-t-r Peco gradually swept the after market/more serious modeller market because it was readily available, a range had developed (a huge plus) and Graham Farish, for whatever reason, dropped out of the market.   Originally there was ABC (Alan Brett Canon) offering bullhead track although it never hit the wider market before vansihing.  Other competitors then gradually emerged as you mention - Scaleway being the first with its bullhead track and point kits which exploited a market area Peco were not touching.  Then others followed.  

 

So in reality, and not forgetting trainset track (some of which was made by Roco at one time), Peco's flextrack and r-t-r points have hardly ever been without competition in the UK market (and in various overseas markets) since they first appeared although Peco and Farish definitely drove Wrenn track out of the market althiough Welkut, with a much smaller rail section (Code 100?) than Wrenn's girders survived for longer.  But in whatever way there has always been competition for Peco in plastic sleepered track virtually from the day it went into it and of course there was some competition for track building components before that.  Peco has survived because of their approach to market and their innovation in the right way at the right time plus the company has very obviouslty been well managed all teh way through. 

[BernardTPM]

Yes, in the late 1960s Farish used to have full back page Railway Modeller ads for their 'Formoway' track.

[Oldddudders]

1 minute ago, BernardTPM said:

Yes, in the late 1960s Farish used to have full back page Railway Modeller ads for their 'Formoway' track.

Including pics of trackwork at Gatwick Airport.

[The Stationmaster]

When I built a module for the modular layout at the RMwe Taunton members' day some years back I used Formoway flexitrack - recovered years earlier from a layout I had built in the 1960s.  Formoway's sleeper spacing was far better than the H0 spacing of Peco's offering