Northern extent of Southern Region 3rd rail in 1960s

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Was there a link between the old Southern and GWR routes pre '65?

There were actually three such links -

1. Via Reading Low level (which was basically sidings but could be used by passenger trains under Special Instructions.  Reinstated and rebuilt as a fully signalled connection during the 21st century redevelopment of the station).  

2. The steeply graded connection at Reading Main I Line East (GWR end) which became the gradient leading to Platform 4A and still survives as the gradient leading to the three dc electrified platform lines but has no connection to the GWML; and

3. The wartime connection between Reading New Jcn (GW end) and Reading Spur Jcn (SR end) which was originally double track throughout with loops in each direction which also remains in use albeit rationalised and is the pnly one of the three which has consistently remained in use since 1965.

[The Stationmaster]

46 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

In terms of what is on the large scale OS maps, the 'modern' double track connection was put in between the 1900 and 1912 surveys. What is known is that in 1898 the GWR built two pairs of slip carriages specifically for the Liverpool - Folkestone service and that these were transferred from the GWR to the SECR at Reading. Quite how is not clear, as the transfer time at Reading in the southbound direction was 2 minutes, but 27 minutes in the northbound direction. The inference is that, southbound, they were slipped at Reading GWR, and attached to an SECR train that started from Reading GW. The northbound transfer, which was at around 01:00, would appear to have either involved a long shunt, or a long wait for the connecting train that would take them on to Liverpool.

 

Jim

Southbound they might well have been attached at the GWR station to a through train to the SECR.  However the nearest STT to 1898 which I have is for 1901 and although it shows the 08.05 Birkenhead slipping at Reading at 13.33 it shows nothing towards the SECR subsequent to that - not even in the following 2 hours

[Wickham Green too]

51 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Southbound they might well have been attached at the GWR station to a through train to the SECR.  However the nearest STT to 1898 which I have is for 1901 and although it shows the 08.05 Birkenhead slipping at Reading at 13.33 it shows nothing towards the SECR subsequent to that - not even in the following 2 hours

Maybe the connection wasn't available to passengers starting at Reading  -  God's Wonderful Railway preferring to send them via Paddington ?

[GoingUnderground]

17 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Was there a link between the old Southern and GWR routes pre '65?

Theoretically there was another link in Central London that dates back to the 1860s, from Ludgate Hill via the Snow Hill tunnel, the Metropolitan Railway's Widened lines, and then via the Metropolitan tracks proper which themselves connected with the GWR at Paddington. Through running would only have been possible beyond Paddington when standard gauge tracks were installed by the GWR.

 

Parts of the Widened lines were electrified but using the 4th rail system as at one stage the Met used them for electric loco hauled trains to Moorgate, switching eastbound on to the Widened lines between Euston Equare and the original  Kings Cross Metropolitan station. I don't think that the link from Ludgate to Farringdon via the Snow Hill tunnel was ever electrified using the 3rd rail system. It seems unlikely as the through passenger services from south of the Thames were reduced over the years, finally ending in 1916 

[jim.snowdon]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Southbound they might well have been attached at the GWR station to a through train to the SECR.  However the nearest STT to 1898 which I have is for 1901 and although it shows the 08.05 Birkenhead slipping at Reading at 13.33 it shows nothing towards the SECR subsequent to that - not even in the following 2 hours

From Parkin's history of the Mersey Railway, the southbound carriage(s) was(were) at Reading GW at 13:24, departing at 13:26. Northbound, the times were 00:43a, 01:10d, however the exact year is not given, other than being between 1898 and 1903.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

17 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

There were actually three such links -

1. Via Reading Low level (which was basically sidings but could be used by passenger trains under Special Instructions.  Reinstated and rebuilt as a fully signalled connection during the 21st century redevelopment of the station).  

2. The steeply graded connection at Reading Main I Line East (GWR end) which became the gradient leading to Platform 4A and still survives as the gradient leading to the three dc electrified platform lines but has no connection to the GWML; and

3. The wartime connection between Reading New Jcn (GW end) and Reading Spur Jcn (SR end) which was originally double track throughout with loops in each direction which also remains in use albeit rationalised and is the pnly one of the three which has consistently remained in use since 1965.

 

4. Via Huntley & Palmers sidings - which connected both to the SER goods yard and the GWR King's Meadow yard, the latter via a "tunnel" under the SER lines, the wartime link lines, and the GWR lines. Not a route for exchanging passenger traffic, or even goods traffic, but it is still in use - for pedestrians!

[Oldddudders]

18 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Maybe the connection wasn't available to passengers starting at Reading  -  God's Wonderful Railway preferring to send them via Paddington ?

If they were starting at Reading, they would not need the GWR - just the SECR?

[Wickham Green too]

...... which didn't appear in the G.W.R. timetable, of course.

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

4. Via Huntley & Palmers sidings - which connected both to the SER goods yard and the GWR King's Meadow yard, the latter via a "tunnel" under the SER lines, the wartime link lines, and the GWR lines. Not a route for exchanging passenger traffic, or even goods traffic, but it is still in use - for pedestrians!

No.  That tunnel, reached via the triangle with the sharpest curves I have ever seen on a standard gauge railway,  was merely an access line between the GWR's Reading Low Level yard and Huntley & Palmer's private sidings.  The only way anything could be transferred between GWR and SR via that tunnel would have been if it was shunted by an H&P engine for the journey through H&P's coal sidings or.taken throughout from Lw Level East sidings via the eastern loop of the triangle and through H&P's yard to their SR exchange sidings.

 

The proper exchange route for individual wagons between the GWR and SR was from Reading Low Level under the bridge on the GWML - i.e. the route which now operates as a passenger line.

[Compound2632]

52 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

No.  That tunnel, reached via the triangle with the sharpest curves I have ever seen on a standard gauge railway,  was merely an access line between the GWR's Reading Low Level yard and Huntley & Palmer's private sidings.  The only way anything could be transferred between GWR and SR via that tunnel would have been if it was shunted by an H&P engine for the journey through H&P's coal sidings or.taken throughout from Lw Level East sidings via the eastern loop of the triangle and through H&P's yard to their SR exchange sidings.

 

The proper exchange route for individual wagons between the GWR and SR was from Reading Low Level under the bridge on the GWML - i.e. the route which now operates as a passenger line.

 

I was in jest!