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MR goods train classification question


Nick Lawson
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... which is not to say that fitted or piped wagons might not appear in Class A or B goods trains, just that they would not be used to form a "fitted head" - the engine could well be steam brake only anyway. It's probable that many fitted wagons would be worked home empty in ordinary goods trains, e.g. banana vans to Avonmouth or meat vans to Liverpool, and those D304 Carr's Biscuits wagons to Carlisle. Note the unbalanced working of express goods trains described in the article.

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The following extracts pre-date the introduction of fitted goods trains on the Midland, and I suspect possibly elsewhere.

 

The first one is taken from E L Ahrons Locomotive and Train Working in the Nineteenth Century (volume II) and describes the work done by the Midland's first class of express goods engine. He states the Bradford London express goods trains - two per night each way - carried express passenger headlights.

 

126486526_AhronsBradford.jpg.be59d6987edb50e977a1df0f08cc4be0.jpg

 

The above dates presumably from about 1880 onwards. The following is taken from E Foxwell Express Trains English & Foreign and provides an insight into contemporary express goods trains. The book appeared in 1889 so again I suspect there was little in the way of continuous brakes. I can see working 26 wagons to Manchester via Rowsley up and down the gradients could have been fun!

 

1044857449_FoxwellGoodsI.jpg.6c8d8af1fd8ec8234abfec8dbdbac9c9.jpg

 

965130020_FoxwellGoodsII.jpg.7e8d6f27c48c4c8c1a0d252767f7b72c.jpg

 

712639289_FoxwellGoodsIII.jpg.92eb3ac4f6fb66ab1d574be2dc1b84ac.jpg

 

Crimson Rambler

 

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

... which is not to say that fitted or piped wagons might not appear in Class A or B goods trains, just that they would not be used to form a "fitted head" - the engine could well be steam brake only anyway. It's probable that many fitted wagons would be worked home empty in ordinary goods trains, e.g. banana vans to Avonmouth or meat vans to Liverpool, and those D304 Carr's Biscuits wagons to Carlisle. Note the unbalanced working of express goods trains described in the article.

Not that - according to its GA - the Midland had a large number of fitted goods vehicles in 1911.

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Not that - according to its GA - the Midland had a large number of fitted goods vehicles in 1911.

 

To the extent that, after the 1909 Sharnbrook accident in which about twenty fitted vans were destroyed, orders were placed for 16 ventilated fruit vans, 5 banana vans, and 3 motor car vans, all fitted vehicles, the majority of which were evidently replacements for these (certainly the 5 banana vans and two of the moto car vans); indicating that utilisation of these vehicles was high.

Edited by Compound2632
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2 hours ago, Crimson Rambler said:

The following extracts pre-date the introduction of fitted goods trains on the Midland, and I suspect possibly elsewhere.

 

The first one is taken from E L Ahrons Locomotive and Train Working in the Nineteenth Century (volume II) and describes the work done by the Midland's first class of express goods engine. He states the Bradford London express goods trains - two per night each way - carried express passenger headlights.

 

126486526_AhronsBradford.jpg.be59d6987edb50e977a1df0f08cc4be0.jpg

 

The above dates presumably from about 1880 onwards. The following is taken from E Foxwell Express Trains English & Foreign and provides an insight into contemporary express goods trains. The book appeared in 1889 so again I suspect there was little in the way of continuous brakes. I can see working 26 wagons to Manchester via Rowsley up and down the gradients could have been fun!

 

I am intrigued by the reference to running these under express passenger headlights.

Every set of bell codes or lamp codes I have seen (I have a modest collection of these) invariably distinguishes between passenger and non-passenger trains.  The point being that the signalman was not permitted to run passenger trains onto goods only roads which did not have FPLs etc, and if he misunderstood what was coming he might route the train inappropriately.  Of course prior to the Regulation of Railways Act such restrictions may well not have applied, so such 1880 practices might well have been exactly why that Act needed to be passed, and if these trains were running in regularly and in the small hours there might in practice have been little risk of confusion.  Perhaps they would be running under Time Interval then anyway.

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27 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I am intrigued by the reference to running these under express passenger headlights.

Every set of bell codes or lamp codes I have seen (I have a modest collection of these) invariably distinguishes between passenger and non-passenger trains.  The point being that the signalman was not permitted to run passenger trains onto goods only roads which did not have FPLs etc, and if he misunderstood what was coming he might route the train inappropriately.  Of course prior to the Regulation of Railways Act such restrictions may well not have applied, so such 1880 practices might well have been exactly why that Act needed to be passed, and if these trains were running in regularly and in the small hours there might in practice have been little risk of confusion.  Perhaps they would be running under Time Interval then anyway.

 

Yes indeed, the period Ahrons was writing of was before the 1889 Railways Act. But by the time of these Bradford-London express goods trains, signalling had advanced to the point at which block working had been implemented on the Midland's main lines, even if imperfectly*. But a goods train running under passenger headlights (and being belled as such**) ought to be in no danger of being turned onto the goods lines. There were at this date fewer of the latter anyway - the big quadrupling campaign on the Midland was from the mid-1880s onwards. 

 

*In one accident report the inspector writes that the margin of safety had been reduced to the thickness of the signal post!

 

**Ahrons was a locomotive engineer so probably not much interested in what was going on in the signalboxes so long as the road was clear.

Edited by Compound2632
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7 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I am intrigued by the reference to running these under express passenger headlights.

 

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

But a goods train running under passenger headlights


Is it not possible that these trains are what we would later consider as Parcels Trains?

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5 hours ago, Aire Head said:

Is it not possible that these trains are what we would later consider as Parcels Trains?

 

I think it's clear from what Ahrons says that these trains were composed of goods stock. What we would later consider as a parcels train would be a train composed of passenger rated vehicles. I don't think at this period complete parcels trains were run, passenger-rated parcels traffic being conveyed by passenger train; one does though meet some passenger trains, usually in the Board of Trade accident reports, where the number of non-passenger-carrying vehicles outnumber the passenger carriages - but these are usually fish vans. Such trains are found being worked by passenger engines whereas Ahrons is discussing the work done by goods engines. There were also the mail trains, which included parcels vans as well as Post Office sorting carriages and tenders.

Edited by Compound2632
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4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think it's clear from what Ahrons says that these trains were composed of goods stock. What we would later consider as a parcels train would be a train composed of passenger rated vehicles. I don't think at this period complete parcels trains were run, passenger-rated parcels traffic being conveyed by passenger train; one does though meet some passenger trains, usually in the Board of Trade accident reports, where the number of non-passenger-carrying vehicles outnumber the passenger carriages - but these are usually fish vans. Such trains are found being worked by passenger engines whereas Ahrons is discussing the work done by goods engines. There were also the mail trains, which included parcels vans as well as Post Office sorting carriages and tenders.


That makes sense. I considered Parcels as Bradford was one of the places these were most likely to run from due to the large number of catalogue companies present there (so many that the midland station at Bradford had two goods shed one of which was practically devoted to traffic from the catalogue companies) . But as you say it doesn’t make sense using a goods locomotive on that kind of traffic.

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I had always thought of catalogue companies as a post WW2 industry, perhaps because I worked as a bank cashier in the early 1970s - long queues of housewives paying amounts like £1.76 on bank giro credits for goods they'd bought mail order on weekly payment terms.  They rented expensive goods like TVs the same way  "I've come to pay DER television". 

So were these businesses significant as early as the Victorian era, albeit presumably with a different approach to payment and without the enormous glossy books?  Littlewoods was one of the biggest, but they were in the Liverpool area.

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19 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

So were these businesses significant as early as the Victorian era, albeit presumably with a different approach to payment and without the enormous glossy books?  

 

I have gathered that hire purchase was an invention of the railway wagon building trade in the 19th century. 

 

44 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

That makes sense. I considered Parcels as Bradford was one of the places these were most likely to run from due to the large number of catalogue companies present there (so many that the midland station at Bradford had two goods shed one of which was practically devoted to traffic from the catalogue companies) . But as you say it doesn’t make sense using a goods locomotive on that kind of traffic.

 

There was a distinction between parcels traffic by passenger train and by goods train; different rates applied and I believe they were handled separately throughout the system, apart from the last mile on the station delivery cart in rural areas. It was, as far as I can make out, a post-WWII development to turn goods stations in whole or part over to passenger-rated parcels traffic. Birmingham Central Goods Station is a case in point. That reflects changes in the parcels business, in the operation of passenger trains (elimination of long station waiting times), and the loss of small goods consignments to road haulage, which could manage point-to-point delivery more efficiently.

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25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I have gathered that hire purchase was an invention of the railway wagon building trade in the 19th century. 

Quite possibly, but the public used it for larger purchases such as furniture or motor vehicles.   It would have been too uneconomic for low value items - the Bank Giro system was only viable once computers came in, cheques had to have a 2d stamp (usually prepaid and printed) until a fortnight before decimalisation, and even an ordinary receipt wasn't valid as evidence of payment without a 2d stamp.

Postal orders carried a fee for the service, called poundage.

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Presented below are the Midland headcodes for 1897 - courtesy of North of Leeds and for the years 1880, and 1893 to 1897 - extracted from Midland Style together with the ones for 1910 from the same source.

 

1075111744_HeadcodesNoL.jpg.250d30693a1bb6a49b5fbfe9ecbf770a.jpg

 

1665149592_HeadcodesMSI.jpg.6104819c31e5b772acb3b69191f2225d.jpg

 

1336710070_HeadcodesMSII.jpg.8dbc75ca3f61e95ac0feffeac92e565d.jpg

 

My understanding is that the codes of 1893 - 1897 remained in use until the move to RCH codes in 1903 - certainly photos seem to support that hypothesis - hence my comment in pencil! However, as it is out of my period (too modern!) I cannot say whether the codes between 1903 and 1910 were the same or exhibited small differences.

 

These extracts cover the period immediately before the appearance of the Dubs Class H 0-6-0s, referred to by Ahrons hauling the London - Bradford express goods trains and Foxwell's equivalent ones between London and Manchester.

 

The 1877 codes it will be seen, demanded in some cases three lamps to describe the train whereas the later codes, until the adoption of the RCH codes, only needed two lamps. This covers the period of classic-Midland when a locomotive's shed allocation was written on the lamps along with the driver's name and the engine number. Drivers carried their set of lamps when going to and from work - hence Ahron's delightful story of a 800 Class 2-4-0 that was lost after its driver logged off! The adoption of RCH codes and with it train descriptions requiring three lamps in some instances, ended the practice of drivers having their own lamps.

 

Below is a photo of Midland Class A express train hauled by a Class M 0-6-0, which @Compound2632 has dated to mid 1899 - for more details of the train refer to April 10 2021 entry etc on his D299 wagon forum in Kitbuilding and Scratchbuiliding of this parish. 

337700564_ClassAExpressGoods.jpg.63483b17365539ac0b116f0176acc0fd.jpg

 

The top lamp should be positioned on the lamp iron on the top of the smokebox but loco crews seem often to have preferred to use the one on the smokebox door instead. I guess it was easier to reach. This practice is also to be seen on contemporary express trains as well.

 

Now may I finish with a plea please? Does anyone please have details of the signal box bell codes the Midland used in the 1890s? I'm guessing they differed from the ones used post-grouping.

 

Many thanks.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Crimson Rambler said:

Below is a photo of Midland Class A express train hauled by a Class M 0-6-0, which @Compound2632 has dated to mid 1899 - for more details of the train refer to April 10 2021 entry etc on his D299 wagon forum in Kitbuilding and Scratchbuiliding of this parish. 

 

There was also some discussion of the location, eventually pinned down as Kettering North Signal Box, the train being on the up fast:

 

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The earliest of those headcodes lacks the bracket on the centre of the buffer beam, but has an additional one on the right (viewed from head-on).  So there would need to have been a programme of changing lamp brackets, and that couldn't be done overnight.  So presumably there must have been a bit of a problem until locos received attention.

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6 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The earliest of those headcodes lacks the bracket on the centre of the buffer beam, but has an additional one on the right (viewed from head-on).  So there would need to have been a programme of changing lamp brackets, and that couldn't be done overnight.  So presumably there must have been a bit of a problem until locos received attention.

 

It's the sort of job that any shed could do, so may well have happened quite quickly. The 1903 RCH codes dispensed with the need for the bracket on the smokebox door; these seem the have gone quickly*: there are photos showing just a bolt filling the hole.

 

*No doubt to the disgust of the enginemen, now forced to lift the lamp all the way to the top of the smokebox.

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1 hour ago, Crimson Rambler said:

 

Now may I finish with a plea please? Does anyone please have details of the signal box bell codes the Midland used in the 1890s? I'm guessing they differed from the ones used post-grouping.

 

Nothing that early I'm afraid - the MR ones seem less likely to have survived than some others such as GNR, LYR and LNWR - new books usually came out with an instruction to destroy previous editions, and mice in attics and WW2 paper recycling probably caught up with most of whatever had escaped.  I have a number of sets of block regulations, but mostly post-grouping.  I have a few books of LMS (Midland Division) regulations

  • Sykes Lock & Block, double line (1929)
  • Tyers Lock & Block, double line (1929)
  • Regulations for signalling by Telegraph Bells (1934)
  • Automatic Train Signalling Hellifield Goods - Keighley North, & Steeton-Keighley North 1929

Some of these don't include bell codes but refer to codes listed in standard AB books

 

I only have one MR set, dated Sept 1st 1917, covering

  • AB Double & Single line
  • Electric Train Tablet
  • Telegraph Bells
  • Signalmen's General Instructions

 

The bigger companies usually had a few regulations of their own or variations which were typically distinguished by printing them in small capitals.  I'm not sure but I think I've read somewhere that the MR used the RCH  codes unmodified, as did most of the small pre-grouping lines.  Anyway, these 1917 ILC? codes for AB :

 

4         express passenger, Breakdown Van/Light Engine going to clear line

3-1     ordinary passenger, breakdown van not going to clear line

5        Fish, meat, fruit, milk, horse cattle or perishable composed of coaching stock

2-2-1 ECS

3-2    Fish, meat, fruit, composed of freight stock, or express cattle or express freight

1-4    Through freight or Ballast train conveying workmen and running not less than 15 miles without stopping

2-3    LE or LEs coupled or Engine & Van

4-1   Through mineral or empty wagon train

3       freight train stopping at intermediate stations or Ballast train running short distance

1-2-2Ballast train requiring to stop in section

2-1-2 Platelayers Lorry requiring to pass through tunnel

Edited by Michael Hodgson
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Putting bell code into the Midland Railway Study Centre catalogue search turns up 23 documents, but I'm afraid they all seem to be local instructions. Would this information be in the appendices to the WTT? The Study Centre has some bits of these for various dates, e.g. item 00549 gives codes in use in use in 1875 but that's probably too early for you?

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2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The earliest of those headcodes lacks the bracket on the centre of the buffer beam, but has an additional one on the right (viewed from head-on).  So there would need to have been a programme of changing lamp brackets, and that couldn't be done overnight.  So presumably there must have been a bit of a problem until locos received attention.

I've found some info which might help (or maybe not, as you will find out!).

 

In Illustrated History of LNWR Engines, there are a couple dates listed on page 332, that might provide some info.

 

1873

Lamp socket added in front of chimney, for revised head code brought into use around January 1874.

 

1903

1st January, centre lamp bracket on front buffer beam (except for some departmental vehicles) came into use (ordered in October 1902).

 

1921

Beardmore 'Princes' built with lamp irons instead of sockets.

 

LMS Period

Standard LNWR sockets replaced by lamp irons.

 

So the LMS could make standard lamps for all locos presumably?

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Many thanks for your efforts @Michael Hodgson and @Compound2632 on my behalf. I asked David Harris (Secretary of the MRS) and a signalling buff this question a little while back (just pre-Covid) and he too wasn't able to offer anything.

 

Regarding the pre-RCH lamp irons on Midland engines - goods engines and tank engines were fitted with five irons - each end in the case of tank engines but being Midland there were exceptions such the open cab 0-6-0Ts and the extra irons fitted to London area tanks etc. Goods engines carried five irons only on the front while passenger engines were fitted with four.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

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6 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I had always thought of catalogue companies as a post WW2 industry, perhaps because I worked as a bank cashier in the early 1970s - long queues of housewives paying amounts like £1.76 on bank giro credits for goods they'd bought mail order on weekly payment terms.  They rented expensive goods like TVs the same way  "I've come to pay DER television". 

So were these businesses significant as early as the Victorian era, albeit presumably with a different approach to payment and without the enormous glossy books?  Littlewoods was one of the biggest, but they were in the Liverpool area.

Gamages catalogue was certainly running in the earlly days of teh 20th century but the volume would have been totally different from the big mail order houses

 

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I have gathered that hire purchase was an invention of the railway wagon building trade in the 19th century. 

e

There was a distinction between parcels traffic by passenger train and by goods train; different rates applied and I believe they were handled separately throughout the system, apart from the last mile on the station delivery cart in rural areas. It was, as far as I can make out, a post-WWII development to turn goods stations in whole or part over to passenger-rated parcels traffic. Birmingham Central Goods Station is a case in point. That reflects changes in the parcels business, in the operation of passenger trains (elimination of long station waiting times), and the loss of small goods consignments to road haulage, which could manage point-to-point delivery more efficiently.

To save me repeating it all (again) h if anyone is interestd in the distinctions between Passenger and Goods rated traffics and how they were handled have a read of my explanatory posts in this thread.  But make sure you read my posts because somebody else posted some confused and inaccurate nonsense earlier in the thread which is rather misleading.

 

 

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I think there were some unusual lamp codes used for routing purposes, involving through workings onto other companies lines.  I seem to recall reading an article a few months ago about that , but I think that was GNR to the Metropolitan widened lines or perhaps the NLR or MR-owned LT&SR onto other lines in East London docklands area

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3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Putting bell code into the Midland Railway Study Centre catalogue search turns up 23 documents, but I'm afraid they all seem to be local instructions. Would this information be in the appendices to the WTT? The Study Centre has some bits of these for various dates, e.g. item 00549 gives codes in use in use in 1875 but that's probably too early for you?

In General Appendix issues up to and including 1920 issue the usual fashion seems to have been to publish the full Block Signalling Regiulations in the GA.  However they were definitely separated into their own publications for the 1930s re-issues.

 

The 1911 standard 'Is Line Clear?' bell codes used by the Midland Railway were the same as the 1917  RCH 'ILC?"codes quoted by Michael Hodgson

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7 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I think there were some unusual lamp codes used for routing purposes, involving through workings onto other companies lines.  I seem to recall reading an article a few months ago about that , but I think that was GNR to the Metropolitan widened lines or perhaps the NLR or MR-owned LT&SR onto other lines in East London docklands area

There were some very unusual codes used on MR trains on various London  inter-company routes.  Headlight were either blue or white - or a mixture of the two - and dsics, square boards and other shapes wewere used as well - the list occupies the better par of two pages in the 1911 MR GA..

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53 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

There were some very unusual codes used on MR trains on various London  inter-company routes.  Headlight were either blue or white - or a mixture of the two - and dsics, square boards and other shapes wewere used as well - the list occupies the better par of two pages in the 1911 MR GA..

 

Midland Style lists headcodes for Midland trains on other companies' lines for 1893-7, going on for several pages. These make use of the two lamp irons over the left buffer (as seen from the driver's point of view, i.e. port side), e.g. stopping goods trains over the LNW South Staffs and Nuneaton-Coventry lines carried lamps on these two irons only, the inner one showing blue by night. Over the widened lines, six lamp iron positions were called for, one at the base of the chimney, one near the top of the smokebox door, and four on the bufferbeam - centre, starboard, and the two on the port side. Goods trains between the Midland and Crystal Palace by night had to display blue lights port and starboard between the Midland and Ludgate Hill; south thereof Crystal Palace trains exchanged these for white lights and added a green light on the smokebox door while Bickley trains changed their blue lights for green and gained a white light on the smokebox door. Trains "must be brought to a stand at Ludgate Hill station for the lamps to be changed". By day, white discs and diamond-shaped boards with and without black crosses were used in a manner too tedious to relate...

 

I quite fancy a model of the Widened Lines in the 1890s but not if Mr Wright, with his insistence on correct headlamps, was to be looking!

Edited by Compound2632
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