How do I extend my system? Confusing information given

[AyJay]

I hope that an informed person can give me some good advice.

I would like to extend my DCC system and have contacted the suppliers concerned, however their replies do not really give me the information that I need and leave me more confused than ever.

So I hope that someone here has done what I plan to do and can advise.

 

 

I have a moderate size OO gauge railway.  It comprises a twin loop for mainline operation, 10-track fiddleyard,  engine yard with capacity for 20 locomotives and goods sidings.  There are 39 points, operated by Cobalt ip Digital point motors, connected to the DCC bus.  Control is via the NCE Powercab (the starter kit, I believe) with a 1.5A rating.  I will be running up to 3 locomotives at one time, a few of them have sound.

 

What I want to do is purchase the Cobalt levers for operating my points, this will require two Cobalt Alpha encoder boards.

(before anyone says "but you have 39 points?"  A number of them work as pairs, so I only require 21 addresses for them)

I also want to have a mimic board that will show the settings of the points.  This will require two (possibly three) Cobalt mimic boards with LED's.

At some point in the future, I will want to deal with the matter of operating semaphore signals, but that won't be yet.

 

However, when contacted,  the replies from both NCE and DCC Concepts did not 'join all the dots' for me, were at best confusing and at worst, conflicting.

 

DCC Concepts suggest that I upgrade the mains PSU to a 3A rating and put a circuit breaker (in the DCC bus?)  They suggest that the encoders can connect to the NCE power panel, but do not say how the encoders and mimic boards are powered.

 

NCE says that I should upgrade my power panel (I was shocked to see that upgrades are in 3-figure sums!!!)  They know nothing about DCC Concepts and advise me not to connect any non-NCE product to their power panel.

 

I have sketched out what I think it should look like (existing system is in black).  The encoded output from the levers is fed into the power panel and the mimic boards read the DCC bus.  

I am happy to replace the 1.5A PSU and add a circuit breaker as suggested, but I still don't know how the new boards will be powered and where I can plug in the feed from the encoders?  I also think that the existing NCE power panel is very small.

I would like to avoid unnecessary expense, so don't want a 'bank busting' do everything solution.

 

Can anyone sort out this mess for me.  Thank you.

Alan

[ITG]

Can’t claim to be an expert, but if you’re using DCC Concepts products (or even thinking about it), I’d give them a call to get help with filling in the gaps. I have a similar size layout, albeit using Prodigy Advance2, but that too needed additional power. I added the DCC Concepts booster, along with their LED switches for panel point control.

No connection other than a satisfied customer.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Hi Alan.

This should be relatively straightforward, at least in concept and understanding.

Your drawing is more or less spot on, at this stage.

 

The Cobalt Alpha Encoders connect to the system just as with any other additional handset (throttle).

That is on the Command or Cab bus side of the system.

Hence plugging into the 2nd socket on the PCP, or either of the spare sockets on an additional UTP socket.

The encoders take their power from the Cab Bus, just as an additional handset would; however once you connect more than maybe 2 or 3 encoders, then a separate power supply will be needed to run them  (it's all explained in the Alpha Encoder manual).

 

Note, the PCP doesn't supply any power itself.

It's only a multiple way junction box and connection point.

1. accepts power in from the PowerCab's power supply.

2. sends that power supply to the PowerCab handset, which contains the system's Command Station and Booster.

3. accepts the DCC track power back from (and generated by) the PowerCab handset.

4. sends the DCC track power out to the DCC Power Bus (track bus)

5. connects to the PowerCab handset's Cab Bus output, which is then linked to the 2nd cab socket on the PCP, and/or links to additional UTP cab sockets around the layout.

 

The Alpha Mimic, simply plugs into the track Power Bus (at any place you choose), which you appear to be OK with.

It takes it's power from that Power Bus. No additional power supply required.

 

It would be worthwhile upgrading your PowerCab power supply, as recommended by DCC Concepts, but be aware of the warnings on the NCE website and in the manual.

The PowerCab doesn't have proper protection and DCC Concepts advice to add a circuit breaker, is also echoed by NCE themselves on their own website.

 

Beyond adding a more powerful power supply, the next power supply upgrade would involve buying and adding a SB5 Smart Booster to your system.

This would then replace the Command Station and Booster inside the PowerCab handset, with a more powerful version.

(This is probably what NCE were talking about when you thought they were referring to an upgraded power panel ?)

 

If the system is running off the SB5, the PCP then becomes redundant, unless it's used just as a UTP with no power supply or track bus connections.

 

You might also consider splitting off powering the point motors from the main track Power Bus and running them of a separate accessory (Power) bus.

Easy to do, just split the track supply output into two.

Run the track feed through a circuit breaker before going to the track, but run the accessory bus directly from the track output (without going through a circuit breaker).

If you've already laid your DCC Power Bus, then you would have to wire in a separate accessory bus to the places on the layout where you need to connect the point motors.

 

Just another thought.

With the Cobalt S levers, do you ever envisage needing to change your points via the PowerCab handset?

If not and you prefer not to use the handset for this, then the Cobalt Alpha Encoders can be connected to a stand-alone DCC accessory bus, powered separately by a DCC Concepts Alpha Sniffer, with it's own power supply.

 

 

.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Pete the Elaner]

Manufacturers often suggest you stick with their brand, but if everything conforms to NMRA standards then it should in theory work together.

They do this for 2 reasons:

- To sell their own product

- Because they can test their own products together. The more manufacturers who produce components, the more you would have to test together & it quickly gets to a point where this is impractical. Why should they be responsible for you wanting to add a 3rd party product rather than use theirs? Windows v Mac is a good example. Mac is a closed shop, so the hardware you can buy for it is very limited. You need to be extremely careful when buying a new video card because it may simply refuse to work with it. Windows is the opposite; you can buy almost any video card & it works. This opens up all sorts of complications.

 

DCC Concepts will have a good idea of how their products work with different systems. The first thing I would do with your Powercab is activate its ammeter function to see how much current your layout draws.

[Ron Ron Ron]

As Pete says, NCE are just covering their a***.

 

DCC Concepts have a proven track record of making compatible kit that works with NCE DCC .

 

 

.

[Edward]

Dear Ayjay

Having more or less done the same kind of upgrade (but with 51 points but no levers), could I mention a couple of issues .  One is cab addresses: the AEUs have to have their numbers and you're very limited by the powercab system.  The other was number of macros also very few. 

After struggling with these issues plus others,  I bought the upgrade (thr 5amp box): expensive but so much better.  Also discovered that PTPanel becomes a UTP .

You will need a current circuit breaker . I use the NCE bulb thing! 

My layout is divided into 5,  each powered direct by its own lead which goes through the circuit bulb. The "star" method.

The only thing that goes right round the layout is the telephone wire acting of course as the Cab bus. 

I decided right at the beginning not to have accessory bus as I see it just extra duplication of wire.

Would add I found advice from my retailers very helpful (Digitrains & DCC Concepts).

 

Hope this has helped in some small way.

 

[AyJay]

Hello again all,

Looking at your very good and sensible replies, I am beginning to regret going for the 'entry level kit', perhaps I should have just gone straight for the 5A model instead.  So, note to self. Always allow spare capacity for growth!

 

Well I have been scribbling figures down just to see how expensive this is getting, and considering all I want to do is control points with levers instead of remembering accessory numbers, the sum is eye- wateringly high!!!

 

Certainly, as far as seeking purchase advice is concerned, Digitrains would be the obvious one-stop-shop.  However, their prices are quite a bit higher than a certain retailer in the Midlands who has a big spread in the magazine.  I would not feel comfortable seeking the advice of a retailer and then buy from a competitor.

 

That still leaves a few more questions:

If I go for the suggested 3A power unit and connect it to my NCE control board, will the decoder and mimic boards overload it?  Should I upgrade that with the Cobalt Alpha option?

Also, the biggest single item expense will be the 24 Cobalt levers.  There would be a big saving if I substituted this for the Hornby passing-contact levers; but would it work?   Probably throw that one at DCC Concepts, their reply suggests that they are quite amenable to the idea of other peoples kit.

 

I can only comfort myself with the thought that its a good thing I don't smoke or follow football.  I dread to think what a year's nicotine habit, or a premier club season ticket costs :-0   The single malt habit can stay though, <sigh of relief>

 

Alan

[Nigelcliffe]

I can see where the costs are running away, and its down to a few things combining, each of which are expensive. 

 

Expense 1 - DCC decoders on turnout motors.  These allow multiple ways to operate a turnout motor, and reduce layout wiring, but they're expensive.   The multiple control methods include DCC handsets, switch/button panels, and computer based devices.  

Expense 2 - Lever frame switching and interfacing that to DCC system.   That's expensive levers, and expensive interface boards.  Plus, by adding levers, you've removed a significant advantage of DCC turnout motors: can no longer use multiple controls - if you operate the turnout on DCC handset, the lever doesn't move, so the multiple control breaks down.   

Expense 3 - This is independent, is the power output of the DCC system.  I'd say the PowerCab is a bit under-sized for the layout described.  Perhaps adding the SB5 "smart booster" is the cheapest sensible upgrade, rather than the full PowerPro system.    This upgrade is independent of any decisions on turnout control, and if your layout currently works without the upgrade, then you don't need it yet.  

 

Cutting costs: 

Depends what you really want out of control.  

Having installed all the CobaltIP motors to the DCC system, you probably don't want to take them out and rewire it all away from DCC, so I guess its sensible to leave those alone and find a solution without changing their installation.  

The Cobalt levers are expensive, but they're quite nice to handle and work "out of the box".  There are cheaper switches/levers around .     So, do you require a "lever" or "toggle switch", or is a "push button" acceptable ?   Is a computer screen with a track diagram on it (thinking Android tablet) acceptable?      

(And, if really wanting levers, then if you have the skills to assemble the etched kit, the Scalefour Society Lever Frame kit is about £30 for five levers and gives a far better "feel" than the Cobalt levers)

 

 

Cheaper options;  

1) -  48 push buttons (avoid the really cheapest buttons made, so assume £1 each), plus 48 channels of input device from NCE.  Which would be two "MiniPanel" boards at about £45 each.    Push buttons means that turnout commands can come from elsewhere.  But, as described, the panel doesn't indicate settings (ie. doesn't show which track is set).   Total estimate £140.   Adding indicators requires more hardware, can be done.   

2)  -  24 toggle switches (SinglePoleDoubleThrow), or rotary switches(*), perhaps £1-£3,  again 48 channels of input, two MiniPanel boards.   With switches, direction is shown, but switches won't move if turnouts controlled from elsewhere.  Total comes to £110-£160, depends on switches and knobs.   This will work with the Cobalt levers instead of the toggle/rotary switches, but the levers are more expensive.  That depends on personal "feel" around switches.   

3)  -  Computer interface to NCE system (there are several, choice depends on your NCE system), plus a tablet computer device. Draw layout diagram to appear on tablet device, and operate turnouts.  To buy everything, I think this is going to be £200+, but if you already own some of the parts its much cheaper.    Has advantages of huge flexibility, and the tablet device can also drive trains.  

4) -  Computer-ish.   RaspberryPI computer, and its GPIO ports.  That gives over 24 input channels, enough for your switch requirements.   RaspberryPI (£40-ish) and NCE USB computer interface (to PowerCab/Smartbooster about £45), plus 24 toggle or rotary switches.  Software would be JMRI.    Cost wise, about the same as the "mini panel" options 1 and 2 above, effort to build is higher if starting from low knowledge, but power of finished result is higher (Raspberry PI opens up many more advanced control options).  

 

 

5)  There are much cheaper ways if into building your own electronics devices.  But its a whole hobby in itself, so the notional cash saving will soon be eaten up with buying test kit, trying out ideas, plus the time sunk into developing the knowledge/skills.   (eg. I'd expect some digging will reveal an Arduino to NCE Cab-Bus interface sketch, so an Arduino Mega plus a load of switches could be the basis of a panel ).  

 

 

(* rotary switch with a "pointer" handle can make very nice panels, with the pointer showing which track is selected).  

 

 

 

- Nigel

Edited June 13, 2021 by Nigelcliffe

[DCCconcepts]

On 12/06/2021 at 10:40, AyJay said:

I hope that an informed person can give me some good advice.

I would like to extend my DCC system and have contacted the suppliers concerned, however their replies do not really give me the information that I need and leave me more confused than ever.

So I hope that someone here has done what I plan to do and can advise.

 

 

I have a moderate size OO gauge railway.  It comprises a twin loop for mainline operation, 10-track fiddleyard,  engine yard with capacity for 20 locomotives and goods sidings.  There are 39 points, operated by Cobalt ip Digital point motors, connected to the DCC bus.  Control is via the NCE Powercab (the starter kit, I believe) with a 1.5A rating.  I will be running up to 3 locomotives at one time, a few of them have sound.

 

What I want to do is purchase the Cobalt levers for operating my points, this will require two Cobalt Alpha encoder boards.

(before anyone says "but you have 39 points?"  A number of them work as pairs, so I only require 21 addresses for them)

I also want to have a mimic board that will show the settings of the points.  This will require two (possibly three) Cobalt mimic boards with LED's.

At some point in the future, I will want to deal with the matter of operating semaphore signals, but that won't be yet.

 

However, when contacted,  the replies from both NCE and DCC Concepts did not 'join all the dots' for me, were at best confusing and at worst, conflicting.

 

DCC Concepts suggest that I upgrade the mains PSU to a 3A rating and put a circuit breaker (in the DCC bus?)  They suggest that the encoders can connect to the NCE power panel, but do not say how the encoders and mimic boards are powered.

 

NCE says that I should upgrade my power panel (I was shocked to see that upgrades are in 3-figure sums!!!)  They know nothing about DCC Concepts and advise me not to connect any non-NCE product to their power panel.

 

I have sketched out what I think it should look like (existing system is in black).  The encoded output from the levers is fed into the power panel and the mimic boards read the DCC bus.  

I am happy to replace the 1.5A PSU and add a circuit breaker as suggested, but I still don't know how the new boards will be powered and where I can plug in the feed from the encoders?  I also think that the existing NCE power panel is very small.

I would like to avoid unnecessary expense, so don't want a 'bank busting' do everything solution.

 

Can anyone sort out this mess for me.  Thank you.

Alan

 

Hi Alan,

NCE are aware of us - they repair stuff we send them!

 

Your diagram looks good, and we have many users with similar configurations, but there are options to upgrade the power.

 

Yes - you can use passing contact switches instead of S-levers as an input to the AEU encoders, or even spring return to centre SPDT switches.

 

Give us a call tomorrow on 01729 821080 and press 2 for technical, or drop an email with the above diagram to salesuk@dccconcepts.com and we'll advise from there.

 

Best Regards.

The DCCconcepts team

[AyJay]

latest update on this topic:

I have now successfully added a second DCC bus for accessories and moved all the point motors across onto it from the track bus.

Now waiting for payday...

 

Now as I think through how to site the levers, I realise that I do not want them mounted on the edge of my baseboard; too exposed to risk if I want to move anything.

See attached picture for the location that I want them to go.

I would much rather have them mounted on a separate box that I can either position on top, or hang on the side next to my controller; something that I can unplug and remove if necessary.

This means though, that the two encoder boards need to be with the levers, inside whatever enclosure I can make out of plywood.  

Has anyone done this?  If so, I would really like to see a photo of it, something to give me an idea of what it could look like and how it could position.

I also need to do something with a mimic panel?  This could recess into the flat space in front of my coaling tower, although I am also thinking of an eye-level panel attached to the wall.

Again, if anyone would care to share a picture of their solution.....

 

Much appreciated.

Alan

[ITG]

Maybe not an option given your site, but for the mimic panel, I used a laser cut ply kit, and then mounted it as a drawer, using Screwfix runners. So when not in use, it slides under the baseboard.

[Ron Ron Ron]

6 hours ago, AyJay said:

.....Now as I think through how to site the levers, I realise that I do not want them mounted on the edge of my baseboard; too exposed to risk if I want to move anything.

See attached picture for the location that I want them to go.

I would much rather have them mounted on a separate box that I can either position on top, or hang on the side next to my controller; something that I can unplug and remove if necessary.

This means though, that the two encoder boards need to be with the levers, inside whatever enclosure I can make out of plywood.  

Has anyone done this?  If so, I would really like to see a photo of it, something to give me an idea of what it could look like and how it could position........

 

 

3 links to follow....

 

http://www.kitwoodhillmodels.com/laser-cut-box-for-12-gang-cobalt-s-lever-frame/

 

 

http://jonwallace.zenfolio.com/img/s10/v111/p1709926453-4.jpg

 

 

.

[Edward]

Like this?  Left pic is the panel that controls  the points,  centre one is the semaphore signals & right an under layout shoot for interest I hope.  The black cable is the NCE cab bus.

All made of plywood tops.

[AyJay]

Yes!

Ron, your three examples are valuable information, although two show me what I don't want to do.

The first is just a box, and possibly an overpriced box, just to hold the levers.  I am not sure what 'value' this adds or what function it performs.

The third seems to be just a crudely put together open shelf with exposed parts.

However, the middle example is more like what I have in mind.  Looks professionally made. I think I would like to go for a shallow, enclosed box  that contains the circuit boards,  with a brass hinged lid (sloping) that carries the mimic panel and has a shaped opening through which the levers are exposed. Constructed from 5mm ply and stained/varnished a teak colour.

 

Edward.  I am particularly interested in the printed display. Did you produce this yourself?  Is it laminated?

One part appears supported by bolts and the other part appears to have legs? 

Can you tell me how much vertical clearance is required to hold the boards etc?

[Nigelcliffe]

If you want a professionally looking mimic panel front sheet, then you're probably looking at getting a firm to produce the sheet to your drawing.   There are multiple materials which are suitable for this, some printed, and some are machined/laser cut.    Start with home-printed full sized mockups to confirm your drawings before spending on the final panel. 

 

It is possible to DIY one which looks good, but in my experience it needs access to a milling machine or skilled use of a woodworking router (against guides).   I produced the panel below a few years ago, on a large milling machine.  Its done into layered plastic sheet (white laminated on black).  The panel is designed so it can mount both front or back of the layout, depending on operating preferences, hence nothing which indicates which way up.  The brass "wings" are held on the box with bolts on the center of the ends, and are angled so the panel is slightly sloped.  By swapping them round the panel mounts on the rear of the layout.  Power and data networks exit through the side of the box (recessed hole, right hand end), and one of the angle brackets has a square hole in it when used in that orientation.  Inside is a CML DTM30 to interface to all the buttons and LEDs.    The box which houses the rest is relatively simple, and decent woodwork skills will produce an attractive box.   

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

[ISW]

6 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

It is possible to DIY one which looks good, but in my experience it needs access to a milling machine or skilled use of a woodworking router (against guides).

Here's one I made myself using only 'home' tools. The box is 6mm plywood, the schematic I printed on my inkjet, and the plastic cover sheet was cut from a ringbound book cover. The holes in the plastic for the push-buttons were stamped out with a hole punch. The green LEDs simply shine through the paper. The main advantage of milled plastic, for the schematic, is that it's waterproof, which mine certainly is not.

 

Ian

[Ron Ron Ron]

13 hours ago, AyJay said:

Yes!

Ron, your three examples are valuable information, although two show me what I don't want to do.

The first is just a box, and possibly an overpriced box, just to hold the levers.  I am not sure what 'value' this adds or what function it performs.

The third seems to be just a crudely put together open shelf with exposed parts.

However, the middle example is more like what I have in mind. ..........

 

Hi Alan,

I posted those to show three approaches.

 

The "overpriced box" is actually a kit that is machined to provide a ready made, custom mounting for a bank of 12 Cobalt S-levers.

A time saving and easy assembly solution, that doesn't require any design, buying wood or working out how to make such a housing.

As such, being a commercially produced kit, it's going to cost a bit more than a collection of old scraps of wood etc.

Some will think the small cost of £20 is well worth it to save time and effort of building your own.

 

The 3rd is indeed just a "crudely put together open shelf".

Some in the hobby appear to be quite happy with this sort of thing.

 

...and the middle one, I chose to show what a bit of thought and extra effort can produce; which I guess is what you're after?

 

 

As for the track diagram on a mimic or control panel, have a look at the thread on control panels, using printed Dibond as the material.

This can give a professional look and finish at a modest cost, if you shop around.

Some members on here have gone down this route and have posted photos of their results.

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

49 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

...and the middle one, I chose to show what a bit of thought and extra effort can produce; which I guess is what you're after?

 

 

I'm the "consultant electrician" on Ian Lister's layout ("the middle one"), which is housed a few miles from my home.   
The control panel Ron links to does work well, but note that the track diagram is drawn for 30-degree exits (to align with the 30-degree rotation of the control knobs).  There are no indicator lights on the panel (deliberate decision to just use the switch knobs only as pointers).   

 

The layout is still progressing, and now looks very different to those photos of a few years ago. 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

[Edward]

14 hours ago, AyJay said:

Yes!

Ron, your three examples are valuable information, although two show me what I don't want to do.

The first is just a box, and possibly an overpriced box, just to hold the levers.  I am not sure what 'value' this adds or what function it performs.

The third seems to be just a crudely put together open shelf with exposed parts.

However, the middle example is more like what I have in mind.  Looks professionally made. I think I would like to go for a shallow, enclosed box  that contains the circuit boards,  with a brass hinged lid (sloping) that carries the mimic panel and has a shaped opening through which the levers are exposed. Constructed from 5mm ply and stained/varnished a teak colour.

 

Edward.  I am particularly interested in the printed display. Did you produce this yourself?  Is it laminated?

One part appears supported by bolts and the other part appears to have legs? 

Can you tell me how much vertical clearance is required to hold the boards etc?

I drew the larger diagram in AnyRail,  printed it out on 2 sheets of A4 and then laminated them.  Then punched out holes for the Alpha Switches to use as a template on the 3mm plywood face.  Found that the paper+laminate+plywood was too thick so had to cut away the laminate. Rather messy but it works!  The smaller panel I drew out a simple diagram on Open Draw and printed & laminated as before.  But this time I got hold of some thinner high quality ply from Kitronic so the Alpha Switches fitted neatly.

Each panel  is held on by 2 bolts with butterfly nuts on to the baseboard face.  Panels are about 6" deep at the thickest end and the baseboard framing ranges from 42mm to 48mm.  Each panel now has a 1" lip to stop papers sliding off.  My boards are hooked over a batten screwed to the wall so are quite rigid.  (But I used similar panel fixings on a club layout which is free standing, without problems.)

Only bolts are used , it's amazing how the photos show up apparent legs which aren't there!

 

Comments:  I didn't plan the position of the electronic bits properly so everything got a bit squashed.  If the layout was to be moved a lot ,  I would make the panels deeper to protect the Cobalts etc from damage.

 

hope that's of use

 

Edward

[AyJay]

Continuing on with this thread...

I have put together a, very crude, card mockup of what I have in mind.  It is overlapping the edge of the board and slightly stepped down to reduce the height. The part where the levers will go is horizontal and the part where the mimic panel is to go, is angled slightly.

Without knowing what the size of the circuit boards are, the two encoders and the mimic boards, I can only guess at the size.

Also, I have used my only Hornby lever, to give an impression of what it could look like with the Cobalt levers in place.

The whole thing could be secured in place by catches.

 

As for the numbering of the points and positions of levers...

When I designed the layout, each point was numbered in a clockwise fashion.  When the point motors were wired in, some of them were intended to work in pairs and their addresses reflected the numbers allocated to the points.  That is why there are gaps in the numbering.

As for arranging the levers; I am thinking of having them in two groups, the running lines and everything else, with the levers arranged from left to right as those points would appear. So, as viewed from the left, the first lever is for point #1, the first point encountered on the Down line when starting at the fiddleyard.  The last lever to the right will be for the first point encountered on the Up line.   Similarly, in the group for everything else, they read as they would be going from left to right.

That appears to be a sensible ordering,  but now I wonder if everything should be renumbered, so that the lever numbers are in incremental sequence?

Signals have not yet been dealt with, next year perhaps.