Layout design struggles

[JN]

Right, so here’s my problem - I’m struggling with my layout design. I’m happy with the idea of a tail chaser, but I’m struggling to fit in a junction for my industry/port siding(s).

 

I’d like to keep the design as simple as possible then wiring can be as simple as possible. My problem too, with layout design, is that it’s difficult for me to visualise the layout on boards where there might be a little more give and that with my Autism (when using RailModdler Express I was struggling to even visualise the hole in the layout from which I’d operate the layout from) I like to generate symmetry. I also think there is a lack of confidence on my part because with a symmetrical layout, I just double and rotate everything. Whereas with junctions etc I then have to start thinking in terms of what else do I need? That got overwhelming for me with my wagon kit purchase (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/165188-cambrian-steel-wagon-kits/), so I don’t know what its going to be like with the layout… One problem I’ve always had the problem where I take first initial steps and then my thoughts snowball and crash when the thoughts get too much. I sort of decided that posting on here might help me slow down a little and make it easier to take it ‘one step at a time’.

 

I know it doesn’t really affect the design, per se, but I'm intending to set the layout in the latter end of the sectorisation era of c1990 to c1994. I like coal and steel trains too.

 

Some features I’d like:

Depot (my deceased uncle Tony was a fireman at Stockport Edgeley)

Industry/port siding(s)

Station (I have a few locomotives I inherited from my uncle that I’d like to run as railtours along side service freight and passenger trains)

 

Things I’m not fussed about:

Fidldle yard (its purely a home layout - although, I recognise it could be ‘included’ as a marshalling yard like Alexandra Docks, Tees or Tynsely)

OHLE

 

I won’t get everything, but finding something that works is preferable to an unachievable ideal.

 

Regards,

Jonny

[JN]

Above you'll see my original plan. However, having looked at Catford (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/118696-catford/) I decided to put the junction at the side. That didn't seem to work for me, so this is why I've started this layout design thread...

 

[Kris]

I think that you may be lacking in space to put in everything that you want. 

[sjp23480]

Hi Jonny,

 

I am not sure how much space you have but you are working in OO gauge.

 

Have you considered building the layout on two levels? 

 

Upper level: running around the room (per your plan) to include a station and some modest storage space for passenger and express freight services.  This could include the OHLE you specified. 

 

Lower level: the location for the depot/industrial sidings/port?  I would not to include the OHLE on the lower level - this would be unusual in this setting.  This would introduce some operational interest (shunting/marshalling) while the passenger services chased their tails on the top level.

 

Junction: it would be a squeeze, but you may be able to include a small junction to run a single line down to the lower level.  If there isn't room, the two levels do not need to be connected.  The upper level can be roundy roundy and the lower level can be end to end shunting space.

 

I hope this helps.

Steve

[RobinofLoxley]

Hello Jonny and welcome to the forum.

 

Do you have access all round you proposed layout, or at least to three sides. You did mention operating from a hole but the baseboards are in that zone where reaching across is tricky but they arent quite large enough to work with a hole cut out. Obviously we don't know what space you have available, so the more information you can give us the better.

[JN]

20 hours ago, Kris said:

I think that you may be lacking in space to put in everything that you want. 

I know.

 

Regards,

Jonny

[JN]

20 hours ago, sjp23480 said:

Hi Jonny,

 

I am not sure how much space you have but you are working in OO gauge.

 

Have you considered building the layout on two levels? 

 

Upper level: running around the room (per your plan) to include a station and some modest storage space for passenger and express freight services.  This could include the OHLE you specified. 

 

Lower level: the location for the depot/industrial sidings/port?  I would not to include the OHLE on the lower level - this would be unusual in this setting.  This would introduce some operational interest (shunting/marshalling) while the passenger services chased their tails on the top level.

 

Junction: it would be a squeeze, but you may be able to include a small junction to run a single line down to the lower level.  If there isn't room, the two levels do not need to be connected.  The upper level can be roundy roundy and the lower level can be end to end shunting space.

 

I hope this helps.

Steve

Thanks for that, Steve. A helix is worth considering. I’ve seen plenty of layouts with them. I’ve subscribed to Chadwick on YouTube, so I can pull up his helix construction video when required.

 

Yes, OO is the gauge I will use - its what I already have. The space is 12x6, so I’m planning on using 6 4x2 baseboards along the sides and 2 2x2 baseboards at each end.

 

Anyway, what’s the Thomas Gray poem you’ve quoted in your signature? I like poetry too.

 

Regards,

Jonny

[JN]

7 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Hello Jonny and welcome to the forum.

 

Do you have access all round you proposed layout, or at least to three sides. You did mention operating from a hole but the baseboards are in that zone where reaching across is tricky but they arent quite large enough to work with a hole cut out. Obviously we don't know what space you have available, so the more information you can give us the better.

Thanks for that. The space is 12x6, so I’m planning on using 6 (three on one side and three on the other side) 4x2 baseboards along the sides and 2 2x2 baseboards at each end. I decided on the baseboard dimensions for a variety of reasons - space being the leading consideration (a bit like the 'buy the best you can afford' maxim 'build the biggest layout you can').

 

Regards,

Jonny

[Chimer]

Hi Jonny

 

Here's a quick and dirty idea.  Personally, I think 2' is too tight for the operating well, I've given you 2'9" across the well, with 1' above and 2' below.

 

 

The storage loops at the top give you options to hold a few trains, including the common centre road to allow for reversal without wrong road running.

 

I'm thinking one of the two spurs off the run-round loop by the station leads to a depot and the other to an industry.  I don't really understand modern (i.e. post steam!) freight workings and how they serve industry, but suspect you could probably do a much better industrial arrangement, with a substantially longer loop, if you did without a depot.

 

Access to the depot/industry from the outer circuit involves reversing over the crossover and pulling forward into the run-round loop.  From the inner circuit, just reversing into the loop.  The run-round enables you to get the train engine to where it needs to be to shunt the industry sidings, whichever spur you use for them and whichever circuit the train came from.  But I suspect the loop is too short for modern freights - in steam days half the train could have been left on the main line, but I don't think that happened during your time frame.

 

The curves into the storage loops and the left-hand spur are 3rd radius set-track, elsewhere it's all flexi with nothing under 26" radius.

 

Hopefully this may give you some ideas to build on ...... and others something to have a go at!

 

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Chimer

[JN]

8 minutes ago, Chimer said:

Hi Jonny

 

Here's a quick and dirty idea.  Personally, I think 2' is too tight for the operating well, I've given you 2'9" across the well, with 1' above and 2' below.

 

 

The storage loops at the top give you options to hold a few trains, including the common centre road to allow for reversal without wrong road running.

 

I'm thinking one of the two spurs off the run-round loop by the station leads to a depot and the other to an industry.  I don't really understand modern (i.e. post steam!) freight workings and how they serve industry, but suspect you could probably do a much better industrial arrangement, with a substantially longer loop, if you did without a depot.

 

Access to the depot/industry from the outer circuit involves reversing over the crossover and pulling forward into the run-round loop.  From the inner circuit, just reversing into the loop.  The run-round enables you to get the train engine to where it needs to be to shunt the industry sidings, whichever spur you use for them and whichever circuit the train came from.  But I suspect the loop is too short for modern freights - in steam days half the train could have been left on the main line, but I don't think that happened during your time frame.

 

The curves into the storage loops and the left-hand spur are 3rd radius set-track, elsewhere it's all flexi with nothing under 26" radius.

 

Hopefully this may give you some ideas to build on ...... and others something to have a go at!

 

 

Thanks very much for that, Chimer...

[sjp23480]

2 hours ago, JN said:

Thanks for that, Steve. A helix is worth considering. I’ve seen plenty of layouts with them. I’ve subscribed to Chadwick on YouTube, so I can pull up his helix construction video when required.

 

Yes, OO is the gauge I will use - its what I already have. The space is 12x6, so I’m planning on using 6 4x2 baseboards along the sides and 2 2x2 baseboards at each end.

 

Anyway, what’s the Thomas Gray poem you’ve quoted in your signature? I like poetry too.

 

Regards,

Jonny

Hi Jonny,

 

I am not sure you have room for a helix?

 

It is helpful to have the measurements and Chimer has already provided an option.

 

The poem is Grays Elegy: written in a country churchyard - one of my favourite poems, if a little morbid at times!  :-)

 

Good luck with the build, 

 

Steve

[JN]

2 minutes ago, sjp23480 said:

Hi Jonny,

 

I am not sure you have room for a helix?

 

It is helpful to have the measurements and Chimer has already provided an option.

 

The poem is Grays Elegy: written in a country churchyard - one of my favourite poems, if a little morbid at times!  :-)

 

Good luck with the build, 

 

Steve

Thanks for the poem information. The verse looked/sounded interesting to me. I can be a little morbid, so that the poem is morbid is not a problem for me.

 

Anyway, I haven't settled on an idea, but I appreciate the kindness with which you gave suggestions - I'll obviously have to what works best for me, but its the time you gave (especially when you didn't have to do so) I'm thanking you for that as well as the suggestion.

[sjp23480]

Jonny,

 

You are more than welcome. 

 

RMWeb is a close knit community of modelers who help one another out.  I have asked many questions and am consistently impressed by the depth and breadth of the knowledge of the community.  I think I have become a better modeler as a result of the generosity of this community. 

 

Good luck with your build and keep us updated on your progress - its always fascinating to see how others do it!  :-)

 

Steve

[RJS1977]

I think we may be getting a bit carried away here with talk of multi-levels and helixes - it sounds to me as if this may well be the Jonny's first layout, so probably best to start with something simple (although a branch to a high level terminus could perhaps be added later once he has gained some experience).

Edited June 16, 2021 by RJS1977

[RJS1977]

Jonny - one other question - which era are you wanting to model? Particularly with regards to the depot, are you thinking of a steam-era depot or a modern diesel/electric one?

[JN]

3 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

I think we may be getting a bit carried away here with talk of multi-levels and helixes - it sounds to me as if this may well be the Jonny's first layout, so probably best to start with something simple (although a branch to a high level terminus could perhaps be added later once he has gained some experience).

Not my first layout, but my first layout I'll be doing on my own... I've got clinical anxiety and depression caused by my autism and I've found my mood is a little more stable since thinking about a model railway (and railways in more detail for my model railway).

[JN]

3 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

Jonny - one other question - which era are you wanting to model? Particularly with regards to the depot, are you thinking of a steam-era depot or a modern diesel/electric one?

This is mentioned above.

[Dungrange]

On 16/06/2021 at 22:05, RJS1977 said:

Jonny - one other question - which era are you wanting to model? Particularly with regards to the depot, are you thinking of a steam-era depot or a modern diesel/electric one?

 

The opening post states the later part of the sectorisation period c1990 to 1994, so would presumably be a new build modern depot rather than ex-steam era infrastructure repurposed.

[JN]

25 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

The opening post states the later part of the sectorisation period c1990 to 1994, so would presumably be a new build modern depot rather than ex-steam era infrastructure repurposed.

Yeah, you're probably right about it being new build (sheet metal rather than brick, but its not a total 'style')...

http://www.davesrailpics.bravehost.com/imm/immloco.htm

https://picturestocktonarchive.com/2006/06/22/thornaby-rail-depot/

I can't seem to find sectorisation era photos of Cardiff or Motherwell.

 

There won't be as many roads as either (space and all that).

 

I've seen on a Holyhead depot photo that the refuelling point is on one of the roads that leads in to the shed (https://www.flickr.com/photos/rivercider/11495844606). To be honest, this seems more sensible than with most depots having to do long moves to the refuelling point (like I believe was the case at Toton) wasting some of the fuel just added (its different on model railways because it adds operational interest and spacial constraints).

[JN]

I've been able to redesign the layout, a little, with the advice given.

 

There is a bit of 'wrong line working' to enter the siding. I do like ladder junctions, but after the I realised 'Brocklesby Junction'. I don't know if my junction is the correct length or what the track plan was in the early 1990s (my Dad took us/me photographing steam trains mostly on the North Wales Coast line and the Settle and Carlisle line then), but the idea is there.

 

I'll do the 'stretch over test' once I've got the baseboard up and I can then refine the design further from there.

[JN]

Actually, I've just realised...

 

I still have a pretty good amount of space for scenery and everything is still 'get-atable'. I seem to remember, though, being able to reach over the far side of my Dad's 6x4 layout, though - it was a stretch, but just about doable (or I could be remembering with the proverbial rose-tinted glasses lol). However, I get that it's not just about 'stretch' length, but garage walls and (possible) back scenes and loading gauges and platforms etc all have to be considered... Better to be able to expand than have to cut down, too.

 

I'm not too worried about full-length trains - my Dad scales up in the ratio of 5:8 (model:actual). Besides, DMUs are only two, three or four 'coaches'. Locomotive (37/4) hauled passengers like the Manchester - Holyhead trains were five coaches and Euston - Aberystwyth were six coaches (https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=454).

 

I got to my 50 pieces fairly quickly and I wanted to keep those two pieces in the top right corner just in case I wanted another redesign (I know, another?!). I'm also going to have the depot with the siding whatever it turns out to be - just imagine there's a 51st between the two points and the other two points (so there's a little bit of separation between 'the sidings' and the 'depot'/stabling point).

 

Anyway, I'm 'thinking out loud' whilst I get things ready, but thanks to the people who've helped.

[ITG]

5 hours ago, JN said:

I still have a pretty good amount of space for scenery and everything is still 'get-atable'. I seem to remember, though, being able to reach over the far side of my Dad's 6x4 layout, though - it was a stretch, but just about doable

Personally, I would definitely see 4’ as too far. Ok maybe if all you need to do is pick up and replace one derailed 4-wheel wagon, but any ‘work’ (track laying, scenery, etc) at 4’ is imho virtually impossible over an extended period of time. Even re-railing a bogie vehicle or loco would be tricky.

[Harlequin]

You need to be able to reach across to do two-handed work without damaging any scenery and without your clothes (e.g. thick jumpers in the winter) from catching on things. 762mm is about right but it varies from person to person.

 

A 610mm wide operating well would be physically workable for most people but could rapidly become annoying because it's more difficult to rise up into after you've ducked under, you feel hemmed in while you're in there and you have to be very careful when you turn around not to knock anything. A standard British doorway is 762mm wide (2ft 6in) and that's a reasonable comfortable width for most people.

 

Design the layout first then think about the best arrangement of baseboards to support it.

 

[Chimer]

I'm not sure what radii you are using, maybe 16" and 18" in the bottom right corner?  Whatever, your Streamline points naturally give a 2" track separation which is not enough for long vehicles like modern freight or passenger stock to pass one another on such tight curves.  This is why set-track uses 2.625" track centres (which look horrible in my opinion) ...... you've got lots of space so why use such tight curves everywhere?  You will see in the top corners of the plan I drew, I do use tight curves, but not with parallel tracks.

 

I have noticed and understand what you say about symmetry, but you will give yourself far more options if you can get away from everything being parallel with the baseboard edges!

 

And I agree with everyone else - 4' wide baseboards do need to be accessible from both sides.

 

Good luck!

[TonyMay]

Given the space available, which is reasonable but not too extensive, and your interest in modern traction, and because I like left-field options, I'd recommend N gauge as something that would enable you to get what you want into the space you have.