Freight traffic star ratings

[F2Andy]

I am trying to learn about the stars that appear on some tank wagons, and failing to find much at all on the web - in fact my best source is another thread here, but it only discusses one star.

 

I believe a single star indicates the wagon is rated for 35 mph, and was introduced in 1913. That seems to be an average speed, which seems odd.

 

Two stars are for faster rated trains, but I cannot find anything about how fast. Were they introduced later?

 

There may have been three stars too, for passenger rated, and I would guess that was only for milk?

 

I would guess they fell out of use as TOPS was introduced, and though they were still around for years after, it would only be on wagons that had yet to be updated, i.e., without the TOPS data panel.

 

If anyone can confirm or correct me, it would be appreciated.

[Michael Hodgson]

Four star was the leaded petrol we all used until  it was banned in about 2000.

[Michael Hodgson]

Sorry.  The stars related to the dangerous nature of the contents

• Class A, two stars - petrol and aviation spirit
• Class B, one star - lubricating oils etc, higher flashpoint so less fire risk

Rules governed barrier wagons etc.  You find this helpful

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112658-br-oil-trains/

 

https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/6-livy/odds/9-tankliv.htm

 

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, F2Andy said:

I am trying to learn about the stars that appear on some tank wagons, and failing to find much at all on the web - in fact my best source is another thread here, but it only discusses one star.

 

I believe a single star indicates the wagon is rated for 35 mph, and was introduced in 1913. That seems to be an average speed, which seems odd.

 

Two stars are for faster rated trains, but I cannot find anything about how fast. Were they introduced later?

 

There may have been three stars too, for passenger rated, and I would guess that was only for milk?

 

I would guess they fell out of use as TOPS was introduced, and though they were still around for years after, it would only be on wagons that had yet to be updated, i.e., without the TOPS data panel.

 

If anyone can confirm or correct me, it would be appreciated.

Two stars were to be found on 4-wheel tanks with a wheel base of 15' and above.

Three stars were to be found on a number of vehicles; most were six-wheelers, and included Scottish Cable Compounds and Albright and Wilson's Phosphorus tanks. 

In all my time spent looking at milk train (my school overlooked the main line to Carmarthen) I never saw any milk tanks with 'fast traffic stars'.

[The Stationmaster]

The number of stars indicated the class of train in which tank cars were permitted to be contained although it also depended on the type of traffic the tank could carry.  for example a tank car with only one star could only be conveyed in a Class E, or lower, freight train (as from January 1951.  The exact meaning of the number, and position, of stars was altered slightly over the years so a specific answer depends very much on the date to which the question relates .

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Sorry.  The stars related to the dangerous nature of the contents

• Class A, two stars - petrol and aviation spirit
• Class B, one star - lubricating oils etc, higher flashpoint so less fire risk

 

That doesn't tally with my understanding, which is as follows:

 

Class A - low flash point, identified at different dates by tank colour (initially buff, later silver) and a red band on the tank, or latterly a red sole-bar.

Class B - high flash point, often a black tank, but could be any colour provided it didn't replicate the Class A identifying colours.

 

Stars, in summary "the more there were, the faster it could travel".

 

The speed of travel was not directly linked to the class of content, they were two different classifications, for two distinct purposes.

 

Could someone who has definitive knowledge or references arbitrate between my understanding and Michael's, please.

[The Stationmaster]

Right let's have a go but there is really a need to draw some date lines.  What follows iss from GWR source material hence some of the items refer specifically to GWR vehicles.

 

As at 1936 tank cars with one star on the tank body including GWR tank wagons and allsopps (beer) tank wagons could be conveyed on trains carrying Class D, E, or F headlights.  from January 1951 - after a cirrection of the original amendment such tank cars plus road/rail and demkuntable tanks with one star on the tank barrel or wagon chassis could only be conveyed on Class E or lower headcode trains.  (that wsa partly a consequence of reclassification of trains.

 

As at 1936 PO and railway company ownedfully vacuum braked six-wheeled tank cars for carrying Class A inflammable liquids or other dangerous liquids were permitted to be run in Class C trains other than those timed to run at speeds above 40mph.  nTo be marshalled towards the rear of the fitted portion inside the last fitted vehicle    In January 1951 this was slightly amended to exclus de train idebtified by a particular syn mbol in the WTT

 

Similar in other respects to two star wagons but NOT carrying inflammable liquids those  with three stars on the tank body (and the Instruction still says 'six wheeled') were permitted to run in Class C trains timed to run faster than 40 mph or booked to run for more than 115 miles without examination or attached to passenger trains not timed to exceed 60 mph.

 

All other tank wagons were only to be conveyed in Class H or J or K freight trains or inside the rear brakevan of a Mixed Train.

 

In January 1951 it was clarified that road/rail demountable tabnks carrying inflammable or other dangerous liquids were not permitted to be carried on 3 star chassis.

 

At the moment i can't find anything later than the mid 1950s but I'm fairly sure some Instructions lasted until the modern 4 wheel tank cars began to appear in the late 1950s as some of them carried stars.  Somethingh from a later date lurks in teh back of my mind but at preseent I haven't managed to run it to ground.

 

PS The number of stars had little or nothing to do with whether or not a vehicle conveyed Class A or Class B contents - that was indicated by various paint colour details of the wagon solebar and tank body.  However it does sem reasonable to conclude that 3 star vehicles did not convey inflammable or other dangerous liquids whereas one & two star vehicles did

Edited June 16, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[F2Andy]

Thanks for the comments so far. I am most interested in the BR TOPS era, by which time I suspect they were being phased out, but were certainly still around on older wagons.

[The Stationmaster]

36 minutes ago, F2Andy said:

Thanks for the comments so far. I am most interested in the BR TOPS era, by which time I suspect they were being phased out, but were certainly still around on older wagons.

Basically all the restrictions on particular wagons were gradually built into the TOPS system plus the wagon date panel which had appeared in 1968 spelt out the maximum pernmitted speed for a wagon depending on its load and weight.

[jim.snowdon]

12 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

That doesn't tally with my understanding, which is as follows:

 

Class A - low flash point, identified at different dates by tank colour (initially buff, later silver) and a red band on the tank, or latterly a red sole-bar.

Class B - high flash point, often a black tank, but could be any colour provided it didn't replicate the Class A identifying colours.

 

Stars, in summary "the more there were, the faster it could travel".

 

The speed of travel was not directly linked to the class of content, they were two different classifications, for two distinct purposes.

 

Could someone who has definitive knowledge or references arbitrate between my understanding and Michael's, please.

The star markings and their number had nothing to do with the contents, but the speeds at which they could be run, and therefore which classes of train they could be run in.

 

The (single) star marking dates back to 1913, when the RCH and the railways agreed that wagons built to the latest standards, which included oil axleboxes, could, once their bearings had been run in, be allowed to travel in fast goods trains averaging 35mph and not more than 40 miles between stops. Two stars came along much later, with the advent of modern tank wagons equipped with roller bearings and power operated brakes, capable of operation at up to 60mph. There were a very few wagons that carried three stars, which amounted to the tank car equivalent of the XP marking on other goods stock.

 

 

[jim.snowdon]

8 hours ago, F2Andy said:

Thanks for the comments so far. I am most interested in the BR TOPS era, by which time I suspect they were being phased out, but were certainly still around on older wagons.

By which time virtually all tank wagons were fitted with vacuum or air brakes and good for 60mph, thus qualifying for two stars, which many of the 45T and 100T tanks carried.

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

18 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

In all my time spent looking at milk train (my school overlooked the main line to Carmarthen) I never saw any milk tanks with 'fast traffic stars'.

 

Wasn't that because milk tanks were classified as passenger stock and only freight stock needed star markings?

 

Mike.

[The Stationmaster]

A nice photo on the Warwickshire Railways website of a Milta with 3 stars

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrmm1000.htm

[Nearholmer]

Blow me!

I’ve never seen stars on a milk tank before. I wonder why.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Nearholmer

[The Stationmaster]

5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Blow me!

I’ve never seen stars on a milk tank before. I wonder why.

 

 

Simple answer is that - like me - you're probably too young.  Obviously they did exist as the photo proves but the big question is for how long did they exist?  This is where I can't (thus far - I say that in hope) find anything after 1951 plus there is a dichotomy between what the GWR GA says about six wheeled vehicles and what is said or known about the situation with four wheeled vehicles (sse below).

 

In the meanwhil I have gone backwards (having had no succes hreading in the opposite direction) to 1920 - no mention of starred tank wagons then forwards to 1924 where I have found a 1921 amendment which said this 

Tank wagons of any description whether loaded or empty, must not be conveyed on trains scheduled to carry 'C' headmarks'.

Starred Tank wagons, loaded and empty, must be conveyed on Trains scheduled to carry 'E' or 'F' headmarks provided the distance does not exceed 40 miles without a stop.

Other Tank wagons, loaded and empty, must only be conveyed on Trains scheduled to carry 'H', 'J' and 'K' headmarks

 

I have copied the original capitalisation and punctuation.  Now effectively, albeit with a slight variation in respect of starred tank wagons what that Instruction did was transfer, with a little extra relaxation countered by a restriction on the distance run without a stop, the previous Instruction applicable to tank wagons with oil axleboxes to apply to starred tank wagon.  The Instruction in respect of unstarred tank wagons continued, exactly, the earlier Instruction applicable to wagons with grease axleboxes.

 

Somewhere between 1924 and 1936 there was a development from one star to three different starred categories and the bit about six wheeled tank cars made its way into the GWR Instruction.  It could of course have been quite possible that the reference to six wheeled was an error/misprint (they did happen) but it survived through several issues of amendments between 1936 and 1951 if it was an error.

 

The Southern Railway 1934 Appendix says the following -

'Tank wagons distinguished by a star on the tank at cross corners, painted black for white or yellow tanks and white for other coloured tanks, and star plated on the underframe, may be run in fast goods trains at an average speed of 35mph from point to point.'

 

As far as the Smerset & Dorset Joint was concerned their only (1933) Instruction regarding starred tank wagons simply said that they were permitted to be conveyed in express freight trains.  However they also had an Instruction which prohibited rivately owned vehicles with grease axleboxes from being conveyed in express freight trains.

[Nearholmer]

Now that this has moved on to milk tanks, it would be worth enlisting Karhedron’s input, as I’m guessing that he’s studied them more closely than anyone. Maybe many did carry three stars, but a little less ostentatiously, plated on the sole bar perhaps, than the ‘Banana Republic General’ of a wagon that you’ve found.

 

This preserved example has either two stars, or one star twice, on the sole bar, but looking at period photos I can’t see any on 1930s or later wagons. http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/4430.html

 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Nearholmer

[The Stationmaster]

24 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Now that this has moved on to milk tanks, it would be worth enlisting Karhedron’s input, as I’m guessing that he’s studied them more closely than anyone. Maybe many did carry three stars, but a little less ostentatiously, plated on the sole bar perhaps, than the ‘Banana Republic General’ of a wagon that you’ve found.

 

This preserved example has either two stars, or one star twice, on the sole bar, but looking at period photos I can’t see any on 1930s or later wagons. http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/4430.html

 

 

I get the impression from that photo that the 'one star twice' on the solebar is most likely the star indicating the position of vacuum release cords. What I can't find after considerable online delving is any picture showing multiple stars 'platred' on a solebar (and it is maybe unfair to expect it on preserved vehicles?). 

[kevinlms]

14 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Now that this has moved on to milk tanks, it would be worth enlisting Karhedron’s input, as I’m guessing that he’s studied them more closely than anyone. Maybe many did carry three stars, but a little less ostentatiously, plated on the sole bar perhaps, than the ‘Banana Republic General’ of a wagon that you’ve found.

Perhaps I shouldn't bring the LMS up!

 

But there is a photo of a milk tank in LMS Standard Coaching Stock Volume 1, Plate 147.

 

It shows similar 3 large stars painted on the tank, plus 3 small ones of the same shape on the solebar.

 

The caption says, "In 1944, a batch of 4 tanks to D1994 was ordered (Lot 1378) by the Ministry of War Transport for Messrs 'Libby, McNeil & Libby Ltd' (the lettering on the tank says this was in Milnthorpe, Westmorland). This is the first of them: MWT No. 1. Again we do not know the livery colour. They were taken into BR stock in 1951. MWT No. 1 becoming No. M44562.

 

I wonder why 4 wagons were required in 1944, were they perhaps replacements for damaged ones? Or maybe with things starting to ease in Britain, perhaps it was possible to supply more milk?

[jim.snowdon]

35 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Now that this has moved on to milk tanks, it would be worth enlisting Karhedron’s input, as I’m guessing that he’s studied them more closely than anyone. Maybe many did carry three stars, but a little less ostentatiously, plated on the sole bar perhaps, than the ‘Banana Republic General’ of a wagon that you’ve found.

 

This preserved example has either two stars, or one star twice, on the sole bar, but looking at period photos I can’t see any on 1930s or later wagons. http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/4430.html

 

 

The 'fast traffic' stars only ever applied to tank wagons, which didn't include milk tanks, which were classified as NPCS. Tank wagons that were starred, carried it as both a painted symbol and as a cast plate on the solebar. For wagons with two (or three) stars, the plate carried the two (or three) stars as a single plate. Fast traffic stars were always 6-pointed, whereas the painted star symbol used to identify the brake release cords was five pointed.

 

[Nearholmer]

Which wouldn’t at all explain how Stationmaster’s milk tank wagon has three whopping great six-pointed stars on it.

 

The stars on that SR one are, indeed five-pointed if I peer over my glasses.

[kevinlms]

26 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Which wouldn’t at all explain how Stationmaster’s milk tank wagon has three whopping great six-pointed stars on it.

 

The stars on that SR one are, indeed five-pointed if I peer over my glasses.

The MWT tank photo also has the 6 pointed stars, in both sizes.

[The Stationmaster]

52 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

The 'fast traffic' stars only ever applied to tank wagons, which didn't include milk tanks, which were classified as NPCS. Tank wagons that were starred, carried it as both a painted symbol and as a cast plate on the solebar. For wagons with two (or three) stars, the plate carried the two (or three) stars as a single plate. Fast traffic stars were always 6-pointed, whereas the painted star symbol used to identify the brake release cords was five pointed.

 

Source in respect of your comment regarding milk tanks  Jim?    What you have said in that respect certainly doesn't agree with the GWR Instruction where three stars referred specifically to milk tanks nor does it agree with the two examples of photographic evidence uncovered thus far.

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Source in respect of your comment regarding milk tanks  Jim?    What you have said in that respect certainly doesn't agree with the GWR Instruction where three stars referred specifically to milk tanks nor does it agree with the two examples of photographic evidence uncovered thus far.

They are sufficiently rare that I had only seen one example of a milk tank wagon carrying three stars. Now I have seen two, but that's it. All the other photographs I have of milk tank wagons show no stars at all, and as far as GW examples go, not even when they were new.

 

[Nearholmer]

It seems to be a case of : Never; What, never?; Well, hardly ever!

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

37 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It seems to be a case of : Never; What, never?; Well, hardly ever!

 

 

 

Almost virtually unique!

 

Mike.