Freight traffic star ratings

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

It seems to be a case of : Never; What, never?; Well, hardly ever!

 

 

Maybe, perhaps ...

[KeithMacdonald]

15 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

Almost virtually unique!

Mike.

 

To plagarise a famous quote from Murray Walker...

 

Quote

The three-star milk tank is unique, except for the one behind it which is identical.

 

[kevinlms]

18 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

They are sufficiently rare that I had only seen one example of a milk tank wagon carrying three stars. Now I have seen two, but that's it. All the other photographs I have of milk tank wagons show no stars at all, and as far as GW examples go, not even when they were new.

 

Well the example in the LMS book, was a newly built one of a batch of 4, so it would be reasonable to assume that those 4 would be the same - except for the number. Along with 2 GWR milk tanks, that makes 6, so not that rare, because milk tanks weren't exactly built in huge numbers.

The LMS built an impressive number of small batches, the biggest batch ever in LMS days was 12 and in 1950 a batch of 50.

Sounds like before 1950, they built batches, to suit a particular run, or group of farms?

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

Well the example in the LMS book, was a newly built one of a batch of 4, so it would be reasonable to assume that those 4 would be the same - except for the number. Along with 2 GWR milk tanks, that makes 6, so not that rare, because milk tanks weren't exactly built in huge numbers.

The LMS built an impressive number of small batches, the biggest batch ever in LMS days was 12 and in 1950 a batch of 50.

Sounds like before 1950, they built batches, to suit a particular run, or group of farms?

Interesting, but there appear, from the published photographs that have appeared to have been vastly more that carried no discernible stars at all. That includes a photograph of a brand new 4-wheel tank for the LMS/United Dairies and a very similar 4-wheeled tank wagon for McEwans, the Edinburgh brewers.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

I do wonder whether the general principle was that milk tanks were recognised and treated as NPCS, and needed no six-pointed stars, and that these odd examples carrying six-pointed stars were anomalies, that the stars were, in effect, applied in error.

 

It seems to me quite conceivable that, especially during wartime when people had to take-up job roles that they weren't overly familiar with, an inexperienced individual might mistake milk tanks for "wagons", rather than "carriages", as happens continually on RMWeb. They don't look much like carriages, do they?

[Michael Hodgson]

56 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

It seems to me quite conceivable that, especially during wartime when people had to take-up job roles that they weren't overly familiar with, an inexperienced individual might mistake milk tanks for "wagons", rather than "carriages", as happens continually on RMWeb. They don't look much like carriages, do they?

Well can a hobo bum a ride on one?

[Nearholmer]

only if he doesn't mind getting really cold, and really smelly.

[jim.snowdon]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I do wonder whether the general principle was that milk tanks were recognised and treated as NPCS, and needed no six-pointed stars, and that these odd examples carrying six-pointed stars were anomalies, that the stars were, in effect, applied in error.

 

It seems to me quite conceivable that, especially during wartime when people had to take-up job roles that they weren't overly familiar with, an inexperienced individual might mistake milk tanks for "wagons", rather than "carriages", as happens continually on RMWeb. They don't look much like carriages, do they?

Possibly, but referring to Tourret's work on petroleum tank wagons, two-starred wagons did not appear until 1957 with the production of the 35T GLW tank wagons by Charles Roberts and others. On that basis, three-starred wagons cannot have been any earlier. Except, that whilst looking further into Tourret's book for a different reason, I found a three-axle 20T oil tank wagon, built for Corn Products Co. in 1937 with....three stars, and an LMS 3-star plate.

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by jim.snowdon

[kevinlms]

15 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Interesting, but there appear, from the published photographs that have appeared to have been vastly more that carried no discernible stars at all. That includes a photograph of a brand new 4-wheel tank for the LMS/United Dairies and a very similar 4-wheeled tank wagon for McEwans, the Edinburgh brewers.

 

 

There is something important, all the tanks with the 3 stars, are of 3 axle variants - weren't most (all?) rebuilt from 4 to 6 wheelers?

 

Perhaps the 3 stars represented the axles? Only joking!

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I do wonder whether the general principle was that milk tanks were recognised and treated as NPCS, and needed no six-pointed stars, and that these odd examples carrying six-pointed stars were anomalies, that the stars were, in effect, applied in error.

 

It seems to me quite conceivable that, especially during wartime when people had to take-up job roles that they weren't overly familiar with, an inexperienced individual might mistake milk tanks for "wagons", rather than "carriages", as happens continually on RMWeb. They don't look much like carriages, do they?

The GWR Instruction dated from 1936 and the impression I form from it is that the use of 3 stars basically separates vehicles which don't carry inflammable or other dangerous goods from those which do but also indicates a particulr level of brake etc fitment enabling the 3 star vehicle to run with faster passenger trains. So, as exampled above by Jim, a suitably equipped tank car for carrying corn products would inevitably have 3 stars.  Incidentally it therefore pre-dates the introduction of the 'XP' marking but it was not altered when the XP marking was introduced a year or so later.

 

But what I still can't find is when the 3 star marking ceased to be used.  In the GWR Appendix it had not been taken out by 1951 - when what were apparently the last amendments were issued.  But obviously - unless it was reduced to purely a solebar marking - it had been discontinued in everyday use at some stage.

[jim.snowdon]

52 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The GWR Instruction dated from 1936 and the impression I form from it is that the use of 3 stars basically separates vehicles which don't carry inflammable or other dangerous goods from those which do but also indicates a particulr level of brake etc fitment enabling the 3 star vehicle to run with faster passenger trains. So, as exampled above by Jim, a suitably equipped tank car for carrying corn products would inevitably have 3 stars.

The only snag with that argument is that the CPC wagon in question was for carrying a Class B flammable product - corn oil.

 

The other part of that puzzle is why 3 stars? Why not 2 stars given that the only other marking at the time was a single star, or was someone at the RCH thinking well ahead of the time? I haven't found anything to suggest that there were 2 starred wagons prior to the development of the 35T GLW tanks in 1957, for which the distinguishing features are roller bearings, long wheelbase and (then) vacuum brakes, all contributing to the ability to run at 60mph.

 

Even the application of the single star to wagons seems thoroughly inconsistent. Certainly, they only appear on tank wagons with oil axleboxes, but whilst there are many examples of post-1923 standard wagons with stars, there are almost as many examples of wagons to the same standards without them.

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

The only snag with that argument is that the CPC wagon in question was for carrying a Class B flammable product - corn oil.

 

The other part of that puzzle is why 3 stars? Why not 2 stars given that the only other marking at the time was a single star, or was someone at the RCH thinking well ahead of the time? I haven't found anything to suggest that there were 2 starred wagons prior to the development of the 35T GLW tanks in 1957, for which the distinguishing features are roller bearings, long wheelbase and (then) vacuum brakes, all contributing to the ability to run at 60mph.

 

Even the application of the single star to wagons seems thoroughly inconsistent. Certainly, they only appear on tank wagons with oil axleboxes, but whilst there are many examples of post-1923 standard wagons with stars, there are almost as many examples of wagons to the same standards without them.

Because there were also 2 star markings at that time - whether or not they were in use and it indicated that the wagon had vacuum brakes.  So in 1936 the GWR Instruction covered one star, 2 star , and 3 star tank wagons.  If corn oil was not a Class A inflammable it could be carried in a 3 star tank car.

 

I agree regarding inconsistencies in the use of a single star as a study photos on the HMRS website seems to show.  However all the wagons with one star appear to have oil axleboxes so we go back to what appears to have been a critical part of the original use of a star - to prevent tank wagons with grease axleboxes being conveyed in certain classes of train which were timed at higer average speeds and/or ran for a greater distance between stops for examination.   

[Nearholmer]

My surmise being that, at some stage, bitter experience was acquired when a hot box set a tank of petrol alight, or that the risk of that was so obvious that people acted to counter it before it eventuated. 

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Because there were also 2 star markings at that time - whether or not they were in use and it indicated that the wagon had vacuum brakes.  So in 1936 the GWR Instruction covered one star, 2 star , and 3 star tank wagons.  If corn oil was not a Class A inflammable it could be carried in a 3 star tank car.

Interesting. That would infer that if I were to build (albeit in model form) a hypothetical tank wagon with oil axleboxes and vacuum brakes, it would qualify for two stars. It is simple down to history, then, that the first tank wagons to qualify for two stars did not actually come along until 1957.

 

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I agree regarding inconsistencies in the use of a single star as a study photos on the HMRS website seems to show.  However all the wagons with one star appear to have oil axleboxes so we go back to what appears to have been a critical part of the original use of a star - to prevent tank wagons with grease axleboxes being conveyed in certain classes of train which were timed at higer average speeds and/or ran for a greater distance between stops for examination. 

Indeed. The apparent anomaly is not with the wagons that were marked with a single star, but with those that weren't. I was careful in picking just post-1923 examples, as by then the standards for oil axleboxes, suspensions and frame designs provided for no real variations. There are plenty examples of wagons without stars that are, apparently identical in all respects to wagons that did carry stars. I am supposing that there weren't tank car owners/operators that deliberately didn't want their wagons running in faster trains as this would seem to be a retrograde action.

 

[markw]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

Interesting. That would infer that if I were to build (albeit in model form) a hypothetical tank wagon with oil axleboxes and vacuum brakes, it would qualify for two stars. It is simple down to history, then, that the first tank wagons to qualify for two stars did not actually come along until 1957.

 

Indeed. The apparent anomaly is not with the wagons that were marked with a single star, but with those that weren't. I was careful in picking just post-1923 examples, as by then the standards for oil axleboxes, suspensions and frame designs provided for no real variations. There are plenty examples of wagons without stars that are, apparently identical in all respects to wagons that did carry stars. I am supposing that there weren't tank car owners/operators that deliberately didn't want their wagons running in faster trains as this would seem to be a retrograde action.

 

Here is a 1937 demountable tank wagon with two stars:

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/british-vinegars-london-sw-10t-detach-tank-no-t12-lettered-british-vinegars-ltd-london-hull-vacuum-braked-order-1326-295434.html

 

And a two axle tank with three stars:

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/grahams-lager-alloa-10t-ale-tank-no-111-op-1940-exwks-f3r-vacb-a-arrol-sons-graham-apos-s-golden-lager-see-also-aat232-for-no-110.html

 

Looking at official photos may be misleading as there was originally a requirement for wagons to complete a certain mileage before the stars were applied.

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, markw said:

Here is a 1937 demountable tank wagon with two stars:

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/british-vinegars-london-sw-10t-detach-tank-no-t12-lettered-british-vinegars-ltd-london-hull-vacuum-braked-order-1326-295434.html

 

And a two axle tank with three stars:

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/grahams-lager-alloa-10t-ale-tank-no-111-op-1940-exwks-f3r-vacb-a-arrol-sons-graham-apos-s-golden-lager-see-also-aat232-for-no-110.html

 

Looking at official photos may be misleading as there was originally a requirement for wagons to complete a certain mileage before the stars were applied.

Thank you, that rather confirms everything. Now, shall I build a vacuum braked class B tank with two stars just for fun (and to wind up the spectators when our layout goes to shows)?

 

[Karhedron]

I am a bit late to the discussion but here is another 3-star tanker. These LNER road/rail tanks were originally built for fish oil traffic from Aberdeen. I gather they ended up being used for milk traffic too. I wonder if that was the inspiration behind Omega-3 enriched milk?

 

[Karhedron]

On 19/06/2021 at 06:55, kevinlms said:

There is something important, all the tanks with the 3 stars, are of 3 axle variants - weren't most (all?) rebuilt from 4 to 6 wheelers?

 

Only the first few batches of milk tanks were built as 4-wheelers. They road very roughly at the express passenger speeds they were expected to operate at so 6-wheelers were introduced soon after. You are correct that the 4-wheelers were rebuilt as 6-wheelers but most milk tanks were built with 6 wheels from new.