New Edinburgh-Paris Sleeper Service Proposed

[Arpster]

I would have posted this in the Eurostar thread but that now seems to be locked, so here's a new thread instead. A new 'start-up' called Midnight Trains is proposing to start new overnight services radiating from Paris beginning in 2024. One of the proposed services appears to be from Edinburgh.

 

https://www.midnight-trains.com/

 

It'd be interesting to see how this will work - customs checks at Waverley station? Any intermediate stops en route (it'd be frustrating for me to have to go up to Edinburgh from Newcastle to catch a train back down to Paris!).

 

Will this come to fruition, or is it pie-in-the-sky?

 

Arp

[Zomboid]

Well I wish them the best of luck. Whether it could actually work... I have my doubts, but Edinburgh to Paris is to far too be competitive on conventional high speed rail.

 

I think the complexities of UK border controls might be a bit too much for it. You could imagine a stop at Newcastle working, but that'll just double the border problems.

 

 

[Stuart A]

I'd love for it to happen, but can't see it personally.  Unless they can get the tunnel to drop some of their safety requirements, surely the cost of stock will be prohibitive.

The only thing I was wondering if the Edinburgh leg was more of a feeder service - using cascaded E* E300s, but I could be presuming out of my behind....

[jonny777]

What I can't find, is the route the trains intend to take to get them from the ECML to HS1. 

[nigb55009]

If the service ran via the WCML, it would have direct access to HS 1 via the North London Line.

[The Pilotman]

It’s certainly a classy-looking website but I couldn’t help noticing the phrase “priority boarding for all” on one of the pages. Perhaps it’s a translation thing but if everyone has priority boarding then where’s the priority? I presume they must already have had discussions with some companies in the UK about track access, traction, crewing and so on. Anyway, I hope they succeed where @The Stationmaster didn’t…

 

Only joking, Mike 

[jonny777]

50 minutes ago, nigb55009 said:

If the service ran via the WCML, it would have direct access to HS 1 via the North London Line.

 

Well yes, but previous comments mentioned a hopeful Newcastle stop. 

 

 

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, jonny777 said:

What I can't find, is the route the trains intend to take to get them from the ECML to HS1. 

Reverse at St Pancras would be possible.

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

Well yes, but previous comments mentioned a hopeful Newcastle stop. 

 

 

Think that was more wishful thinking from the poster than a desire by the operator.

 

I would imagine the train would follow the internal sleeper routes down to Carstairs, the WCML and then the NL line to get to HS1, no stops as it would complicate passport control which can be managed en route or at Waverley.

[nigb55009]

3 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

Well yes, but previous comments mentioned a hopeful Newcastle stop. 

 

 

Agreed, but when people are travelling overseas a long journey to the airport is accepted as part of the whole trip. A traveller from Newcastle would be able to catch the service at Carlisle, as they would do with the present Caledonian Sleeper service. 

[jonny777]

5 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Reverse at St Pancras would be possible.

 

Yes it would, but might add an extra security dimension if passengers were allowed to join the train at St Pancras. 

 

I wonder if Glasgow might be a more logical starting point? 

 

(And I'm not even going to mention possible Scottish independence).... ooops, I just did. 

[Pacific231G]

Just now, Zomboid said:

Well I wish them the best of luck. Whether it could actually work... I have my doubts, but Edinburgh to Paris is to far too be competitive on conventional high speed rail.

 

I think the complexities of UK border controls might be a bit too much for it. You could imagine a stop at Newcastle working, but that'll just double the border problems.

 

 

And yet....While the Iron curtain was at it's most ferric, I  travelled on overnight trains from Aaachen to West Berlin via E. Germany, from Berlin to Moscow, from Venice to Zagreb, and across plenty of European borders that were then quite strict such as Italy to Austria and Netherlands to Germany- and, though I never travelled on it,  we did have the Night Ferry and they managed that at one platform at Victoria once a day without any problems .  

[Zomboid]

There would be no more need to open the doors at St Pancras during a reversal than there would be at Peterborough if a signal stopped the train.

 

Security wise a call at St Pancras wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing as the infrastructure is already there - a more significant thing would be the arrival time there (midnight? 1am? If it's leaving Edinburgh at about 8pm then it'll take quite a while to get down either of the routes to London), whilst I think HS1 is closed at night for engineering access. Might be more sensible to run it via the classic routes to the tunnel, though whether that would make the journey even more problematic.

 

As for Scottish independence... Assuming they join the EU then a train running non-stop though England to France would be an interesting proposition. I'm sure with the necessary political will it could be done.

[adanapress]

A glance at the latest Quail edition shows the rather remarkable fact that International platform 5 at St Pancras

links directly  and immediately to the ECML  via Silo Curve and Copenhagen junctions, , to the WCML a little less directly via Silo junction, Cedar Junction, Camden Road and Willesden,   and  remarkably - if they  cared to wire up a few feet of what is presently called  ''The Maintainance Siding''  - directly to the Midland Main Line! .  perhaps

Midnight Trains have some creative thoughts in this area.

[Kris]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

As for Scottish independence... Assuming they join the EU then a train running non-stop though England to France would be an interesting proposition. I'm sure with the necessary political will it could be done.

Currently I suspect that there would be real political will from Scotland and the EU but the British government would be a challenge. Given the enmity towards France at the moment I suspect that it would be easier to get the will to go to any other country in Europe. 

[Zomboid]

Let's not go down the dual rabbit holes of Scottish independence and the relationship between the EU and UK, but this wouldn't happen any time soon, and a lot can change in politics over the course of a year or two. I suspect that current issues with France will be resolved in due course, but who knows what the relationship between Westminster and Edinburgh would be like after the Union has been unpicked...

[Pete the Elaner]

5 hours ago, Arpster said:

I would have posted this in the Eurostar thread but that now seems to be locked, so here's a new thread instead. A new 'start-up' called Midnight Trains is proposing to start new overnight services radiating from Paris beginning in 2024. One of the proposed services appears to be from Edinburgh.

 

https://www.midnight-trains.com/

 

It'd be interesting to see how this will work - customs checks at Waverley station? Any intermediate stops en route (it'd be frustrating for me to have to go up to Edinburgh from Newcastle to catch a train back down to Paris!).

 

Will this come to fruition, or is it pie-in-the-sky?

 

Arp

 

I caught the Caledonian sleeper to Perth a while back. That passes through Milton Keynes non-stop, which gave me 2 choices: catch a train to London then board the train in Euston at 9pm(ish) or get to Crewe for midnight.

Getting to Crewe for midnight was a lot more trouble. Services stop well before then so I would have to get there a lot earlier. It was also more expensive than a train to London.

It was the same price to catch the sleeper from London as it was to catch it from Crewe. I guess they don't sell seats/berths on it from London to Crewe so it makes no difference to the service where I board it.

 

I am just trying to think how long it would take to get from Edinburgh to Paris. Sleeper speeds on the WCML are lower than for daytime services. I believe this is to reduce noise but it also makes the journey more comfortable & reduces stress on locos & rolling stock. I would expect the Paris-channel leg would also be slower overnight for the same reasons.

The nice things about doing Perth-London was boarding the train at sleeping time & waking up at my destination around the same time I would normally wake up. Adding the extra distance to Paris doesn't mirror this.

[Grizz]

I guess a lot of the routing, timings and potential stops would be somewhat stock type dependant. Are MK5s passed for the tunnel? Maybe the Canadians would flog the Nightstar sleepers back? (Please note that I am joking before anyone gets on my case)...

 

Would this be loco hauled & MK5 type stock? New stock? Or some kind of Unit based trains? What ever it is is going to require a serious spec if it is going to be able to run on HS and Classic routes within the UK and also the variety of routes planned in the rest of Europe. 

 

If a service were to stop somewhere on route it would obviously require the allotted platform and associated facilities to be capable of being customs secured. Great when everything is going to plan...not so good when it isn't and the train has to be pathed via a different route. Island platforms also a nightmare to manage unless the whole thing (both platform faces) is customs secure.  

 

I've travelled on loads of sleepers in the past. City Nightline from Cologne to Odense was a particular favourite. Danish and German boarder security used to get on the train and the doors remained locked until the passport control had finished. On the odd occasion I remember seeing a few people removed from the train and being 'detained for a chat'. It is amazing how co-operative people are when armed boarder police are asking the questions.

 

Hopefully this project is successful. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Grizz

[frobisher]

3 hours ago, jonny777 said:

Yes it would, but might add an extra security dimension if passengers were allowed to join the train at St Pancras. 

 

Hardly any given St Pancras' current setup.

[Joseph_Pestell]

7 hours ago, Arpster said:

I would have posted this in the Eurostar thread but that now seems to be locked, so here's a new thread instead. A new 'start-up' called Midnight Trains is proposing to start new overnight services radiating from Paris beginning in 2024. One of the proposed services appears to be from Edinburgh.

 

https://www.midnight-trains.com/

 

It'd be interesting to see how this will work - customs checks at Waverley station? Any intermediate stops en route (it'd be frustrating for me to have to go up to Edinburgh from Newcastle to catch a train back down to Paris!).

 

Will this come to fruition, or is it pie-in-the-sky?

 

Arp

 

Pate en croute.

 

Edit: Many other delicacies acting as a filling for a pastry case are of course available. Here in the Limousin they seem to have a strange liking for potato pies. Even before I was diagnosed as a diabetic, I would have found that a carb overload.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Let's not go down the dual rabbit holes of Scottish independence and the relationship between the EU and UK, but this wouldn't happen any time soon, and a lot can change in politics over the course of a year or two. I suspect that current issues with France will be resolved in due course, but who knows what the relationship between Westminster and Edinburgh would be like after the Union has been unpicked...

 

What issues between France and the UK. Johnson and Macron seem to get along fairly well as one might expect from two centre-right politicians with not too much backing from the political classes at home.

 

Sure there have been recent headlines about the French no longer trusting the English. They never have!

[phil-b259]

I will believe it when it happens.

 

Procuring Channel Tunnel compliant, UK loading gauge compliant is going to be horrendously expensive for starters.

 

I recall Reading that for the previously planned London to Frankfurt sleeper 25 years ago you were looking at £500 per berth - and I doubt its got any cheaper. At those sorts of prices a early morning flight or staying over in a hotel is going to be significantly cheaper most of the time.

[AMJ]

Many of the northern European countries have withdrawn sleepers as passengers seem to prefer a high speed trip and where necessary a stay in a hotel.  I personally prefer to do that these days, get a nice meal, a beer, sleep in a static bed, shower and perhaps an early train.

 

Peoples ideas about how/if they travel will change upon the easing of C19 measures.

 

Idea is good but I'm failing to see any way that it could make any money.

[APOLLO]

Just now, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Pate en croute.

 

Edit: Many other delicacies acting as a filling for a pastry case are of course available. Here in the Limousin they seem to have a strange liking for potato pies. Even before I was diagnosed as a diabetic, I would have found that a carb overload.

 

The proposed Edinburgh to Paris sleeper should call at Wigan North Western en route to stock up on pies !!!

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

[burgundy]

Paris to Edinburgh is just one of the routes that is being considered. The website shows a network of possible routes in the 800 to 1500 km range based on Paris while OBB Nightjet is also offering a range of sleeper services in central Europe. I guess that the particular issues of the tunnel, the UK loading gauge and the particular paranoia around the border make Edinburgh the most challenging of the proposed destinations. 

I have looked quite hard at travel to Malaga by rail and at present it is a full two day journey, with an overnight in Barcelona. A sleeper for part of the route might be an interesting option.  

Best wishes 

Eric