Dymented - the Serious stuff starts!

[Philou]

Hello any new readers to this thread - I have changed the title from 'Dymented? I must be!' on 4th March 2023. The title change reflects the fact that as from this date the long-awaited layout starts. If you want to read all about the work that went into the design of the layout with the help of the RMWeb collective and the creation of the room within which to construct the layout, then start here - otherwise skip forward to page 18.

 

Philou

 

Hello chums and chumesses,

 

I'm not sure that this topic should be in this thread, and I didn't want to do a blog, so here goes:

 

There is a link to my layout topic below, wherein the RMWeb collective were kind enough to give their thoughts on the proposal. After much toing and froing, and perhaps of a primary importance, a lack of general funds to get the layout underway, the good news is that this week I has mainly been ordering timber and ironwork the get it underway, oh yes! . The commencement of it will be slow, as I have to extend a sundeck and the materials for that are arriving next week too. Mrs Philou has her priorities.

 

As I have four blank walls in our barn to play with, it is a blank canvas for me - however I need to create a new floor (mezzanine) as the old one was rotten and not at all level. The first job will be set up some sectional scaffolding so that I can rawl-bolt a new wall-plate to the one wall from which I shall then launch new joists onto a new supportingbeam 3/4 of the way across. I don't want to put a new wall plate up on the opposite side as the wall there is very irregular. In any case, the joist would be of an unsupported span of over 6.2m which really falls outside of simple engineering. I can therefore keep the unsupported length to about 4.8m.

 

I'll post a general plan next of the existing barn and the proposed flooring with some photos.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Philou
Situation update

[Philou]

Here are some pictures of the inside of the barn - it is mucky and dusty due to there being tons of old hay and straw that has been removed. The flooring was rotten - how do I know?

 

The photos show what's left of the the old hay loft. The joists I'm keeping so that I can lay some crawling boards from which I can work to set up the new wall plate. Once that's done, most will be removed, the last one or two being retained so that the existing beam doesn't fall over! I don't trust the existing beams as at sometime they must have been exposed to leaks. The one has no core - it's completely hollow!

 

 

 

A new beam will be laid above the old one suitably packed so that it's horizontal, the old one being on a fall. New timber columns will be placed under the old beam to give additional support to it, and the new beam, via the packing pieces. Once the new beam has been stabilised with the new joists, any remaining old joists will be removed - if they're too far gone, they'll go to the burner for winter fuel.

 

Next up is a very precise drawing of the barn done on Google SketchUp. I have no idea how accurate it is though until I get a new floor in place and remeasure. My tape measures to the nearest cm but the drawing is to nearest 0.01mm! Go figure!! It'll all come out in the wash as my timberwork is not up to much and I can only cut to the nearest 2mm or so anyway.

 

 

 

The large vertical post is the main column supporting the barn roof and is immovable, the other three are proposed supports for the new beam (on the left) and the edge joist that will need to be cut to allow a new stair access from the barn floor and into the railway room.

 

The next picture shows the wall plate, beam and joists in place. This shows the general arrangement with the cut-out ready for the stairwell. The joists will be 220 x 100 spaced at 610 centres for a span of approximately 4800mm. The free ends cantilever to the wall opposite - the maximum cantilever will be approximately 1700mm of which any load will be at a maximum distance of 1400mm of which 900mm is taken up by the layout boards anyway. The usable area will be approximately 6.28m x 7.81m:

 

 

Here's a view with the new access stairs in place. They'll have to be made-to-measure. primarily it'll be just me in the room, though the club members have asked if they can come and play too!

 

 

Using 610 centres between joists, means that the 22mm OSB sheets that I propose using can be laid with the minimum of cutting - some waste will be inevitable. In this shot I've shown a cellar type door as to avoid falling back down the stairs once in! The layout boards will over-fly the doors wall end, hence opening in two parts. The walls are proposed to be mounted in metal studwork:

 

 

The walls will be made up of Rockwool mineral insulation (other makes available) with a vapour barrier and finished with 12.5/13mm plasterboard. The feather-edges will be taped and scrimmed. I might give a basic white paint finish as the boards are prone to 'yellowing'. Did you know that? I didn't until I read about it on the Knauf website:

 

 

I'm going for a partially suspended ceiling.  At the one end, the height of the room will be cut into by the existing roofline and the metal lathes can be fixed onto the existing rafters. For the rest of the area, about 2/3rds, it will be suspended. Knauf now do special steel fittings - but I have no idea of the cost!

 

 

Finally, the ceiling will be finished off with insulation and scrimmed and painted 9.5/10mm plasterboard. I haven't done an electrical circuit but there is a mini-consumer unit that will deliver 32A max. I shan't be having any natural light as the Veluxes would be out of my convenient reach - but I say that at the moment. Otherwise, it's going to be LED ceiling downlighters and possible some LED pelmet type lights over the layout itself:

 

 

As for the layout, due to a hard-drive failure, I lost everything (no, no, no violins required - a lesson learnt the hard way), so I'm redrawing it in SCARM again and I may have a go in Templot as I do have some non-RTP junctions with which to deal. However, as time is running out (biological clock an' all that), then most of the trackwork will be RTP. You can see the general scheme if you follow the link in the very first post above.

 

When I've redrawn the plan (it shouldn't take long as there won't be any major changes) I'll post it up. Later, I'll post it up also in 3D via SketchUp (lost the originals too). I enjoyed that, but it did take a long time to do (3 weeks) but it was useful as I could do a virtual tour. The first effort did show up things that just didn't hang well, and I was able to amend it on-screen, rather than doing it 'live'.

 

Any ideas of how to construct the cellar doors would be good and how to secure the room too.

 

Let me know what you think - especially if there is something technical that I may have got wrong!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Philou
Duplicate plan removed and additional information

[Stubby47]

You don't appear to have any ventilation on the room, but not knowing how warm (or cold) it gets in Franche Comté, this might not be an issue.

[Re6/6]

Very fine Comté cheese and vin jaune from there!

[Philou]

@Stubby47 You're right! The barn does cool down in the winter - but it is totally uninsulated and the walls are not completely closed. This latter matter will be attended to once I have my new floor in place. I can put my sectional scaffolding up on that and work from there. I don't want to close it off too much so as to avoid damp and eventual mould. I'm not sure about heating. An imponderable until put to the test. I had thought of a 'turbo' wood burner, but it would have to be placed in the lower part of the barn and the heat fed up somehow.

 

In the summer, it doesn't get too warm - but if the room is closed then I suppose breathe vapour could accumulate. I shall remember to put some hit'n'miss vents to allow for some natural airflow at least. I shall reconsider my 'no Veluxes' as they would give natural light AND aerate via the trickle vents. (Mrs Philou did ask if I was going to put in some Veluxes).

 

Good observation - thanks.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

@Re6/6 Indeed, not too expensive around these parts either. 24 month matured Comté is excellent. Arbois red is good too!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Re6/6]

Vin jaune is too expensive over here!

[Philou]

I have a question for those that may pop by regarding landscape.

 

There is always the question regarding whether the train is part of the landscape or the landscape part of the train. I'm not over bothered if it's one or the other as I shall be landscaping as there are little or no prototypical rural/town buildings in the vicinity of my three stations.

 

What I should like to know is if any of you that do landscaping, use vertical compression? My one station is a representation of Ledbury as was c.1950  trackwise. At one end there is a viaduct that is 60' above the River Leadon which gives us 240mm scale height - not an issue. however, at the end is a tunnel that bores through the Malvern Hills and at one point the ground is 450' AOD, that equates to 1800mm. In my earlier plan (now lost) I went for it, but do you think it may be TOO much? Less is more and all that?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Chimer]

And I thought Dymented was ambitious ......

 

With respect to heights, Ledbury is around 250 feet AOD so your summit need only be 800mm above track level - and I think half of that would be impressive enough .....

 

Cheers, Chris

[Philou]

@Chimer Unfortunately, this is what has held up any start on Dymented itself due to funds always being on divert for something 'else', the 'else' being able to be used by everyone and not just me.

 

Insofar as the plans above are concerned, I've done very similar timberwork when I did the sun-deck 18 months ago - except I was on ground zero! This time, I'll be 4m up. I have some good sectional scaffolding and plenty of it so I should get off to a good start. The worst of the job (after clearing some floorspace) will be the taking down of the existing joists. Most are about 200 x 200 and in oak. If they've rotted, then they'll be that much lighter .

 

Your comment regarding heights is good - I had worked out the rail height is about 270' AOD - give or take a couple of feet. I shall need to compromise somewhere along the way as the 1:1 viaduct is at about 225' AOD with the river 60' below and is in reality about 1/2 mile away from the station whereas on the model it's almost on top of it - hence my earlier question to those who do landscaping on their models, whether they use any vertical compression.

 

Anyway, thanks for the comment and coming to have a look - things are finally on the move!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[Philou]

Yay!

 

After very many long years, false dawns, missed proposed start-dates, 'other things that must be done, loss of mojo and possibly most importantly a decidedly very empty piggy-bank, Dymented is finally under way.

 

Since I last wrote anything here, an extension to our sun-deck was created and a cheapie spa put up. Having done that, the barn was cleared of some of the accumulated rubbish trailered away and tipped. My sectional scaffolding has been set up and this morning secured - no wobbles!! I've also cut to size my wall-plate. The good news is that having kept the old beams, I now have somewhere where I can rest the wall plate so it can be secured at one end and then levelled. My scaffolding has ended up at a reasonable working height so no crawling boards required - hurrah!

 

Tomorrow will be securing the wall-plate in place using rag-bolts - many holes to drill in a very dry stone wall - some of the stone is mud-stone and is not the best in which to drill. It'll get done.

 

I'll post up a couple of photos now and again so as to show progress - today's progress will be for tomorrow.

 

I have redone the plan in SCARM but I want to tweak it a little regarding Dymented station - so WIP at the mo'.

 

The 3D plan has started over again and is very much WIP, but here is the Ledbury viaduct corner (no colour - shades of grey at the moment as it otherwise eats up too much memory).

 

 

 

(Saunters off whistling happily to himself).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[Philou]

Hello chums,

 

Well it's been a bit of an up-and-down start to the building works. I managed, single-handedly, to heave the first wall plate up onto the old joists (I called them beams before - doh!), and slide it into its position. Levelling it was quite simply a case of using differing thicknesses of timber to jack it up. Afterwards, it was a case of marking out where the joist hangers were to go so that the anchor bolts wouldn't conflict with the joists. The plate was displaced and suitable stones identified, approximate positions marked on the wall-plate and then drilled.

 

There was a minor issue that the wall is definitely not flat but has a slight curved and the wall plate curved oh ever so slightly in the other direction, meaning that the ends were about 50mm clear of the wall.Had I realised before I could easily have turned the wall-plate over and used the curve to an advantage but is was too late as the cut I had made couldn't be handed!  'Hey-ho, never mind, the anchor bolts will draw the ends back in place.'

 

Did they heck! What the French use a lot are hammer type fixings were the plug remains captive within the wood, and once the free end is in the hole in the wall, that's it, you can't compress the plug any more. So with much heaving and lots of naughty words in French and English, I managed to get the three fixings with which I had started out of the wall (two blocks of mud-stone shattered under the strain), leaving me with three now useless plugs - expanded and now bent beyond bug - er, US.

 

I cut off and removed the now bent plugs and left it for the rest of the day to tackle it the next day.

 

Having thunked a bit, I went for BIG anchor fixings M12s with M19 hex heads 160mm long with 14mm plugs that went into the hole first. I redrilled two new holes to replace the shattered ones and two enlargements for the bigger anchors. Starting with one biggie at each end, (having checked that all holes lined up) I slowly wound them up and yup, the ends gradually drew themselves towards the wall. It was just a case of then using the 'standard' hammer fixings in the remainder. Hoorah!

 

Following day was much the same as before except the mud-stone was of even worse quality - if that was possible - having a couple split/shatter whilst drilling. Having decided that the curve was now even worse that the previous one, I went for broke and used three biggies right from the start. It worked, and 24 hours later, they're both still up!

 

Today's joy was hoisting the first of my 6.2m joists in place to enable the setting up and levelling of a new beam parallel to the wall plate. I needed Mrs Philou's help in swinging the joist around and over the scaffolding boards (very tight fit and out of my reach to pull on the pulley rope and swing it at the same time). Once the free end was on the scaffolding board, it was relatively easy to put it into a joist hanger. Levelling was done by packing.

 

Tomorrow's fun is to manhandle three 8.2m 220mm x 50mm beams into place to create the new support for the joists. It'll get done!

 

Here are a couple of photos of the first wall plate hoisted but not yet levelled nor fixed. The rope is there for me to hang myself when it goes titsup. I'll post a couple more in a day or so as there isn't much to see at the mo'.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

[Chimer]

Your thread title becomes more apt with every post ...... 

[Philou]

@Chimer <--- me!

 

I held off doing any moving of the long beams as its Sunday and I didn't want to call on anyone for help. I screwed my joist hangers in place and my new joists ordered today (even on a Sunday here - I only intended to leave a message but he picked the 'phone up!). There is unfortunately a 2 week wait for the timber to arrive in stock. There is also a great scarcity of 22mm OSB (Orientated Strand Board that I was going to use as flooring) over here and prices of it and metal studwork has doubled. Apart from a lack of HGV drivers, the Chinese have bought HUUUUUGE amounts of building materials. Is it the same over in Blighty?

 

Mrs Philou is going to town tomorrow so whilst she's not about I'll take down the joist that I used for setting out (not quite as sturdy as my newly ordered stuff), as she always wants to help and I'm afraid of an accident waiting to happen - I know what I'm doing but she doesn't!

 

If it's dry, I'll take the long beams outside and trim them up as they're a tad rough. Well, that's the idea but if too heavy I'll have to wait until Mrs P gets back.

 

I'll post up a photo later of the wall plate in place - on her 'phone at the mo'.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Edit: I always thought OSB was Ordinary Shuttering Board (used as such) but its not its proper name.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Philou
Correction to OSB

[Philou]

Well, the temporary joist is down AND I've managed to get the 8.2m long one out on my own, just as Mrs P got back. Had a moan that I'm always doing things when she's not there but was happy to help to lift it up on to trestles. Honour spared all round.

 

Here are a couple of photos. One of some old loon acting the goat as he was very happy that the first wall plate was secured in place. The second one shows both now fixed and joist hangers in position (may have to do upload twice as the photos are quite large).

 

 

and this is what an 8.2m beam looks like.

 

 

I've three in all to make up one single beam 150 x 210 x 8.0m that will support the free ends of the joists. This new beam will repose on new timber columns secured onto a stone wall below. All the columns will have to be made individually as the stone wall also has a fall - ho hum.

 

Right! I'm off out to play as the wood is now in the shade and I can get to work. Hopefully, I can get all three trimmed today as the weather is set to turn to rain during tomorrow.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

Well I didn't do all three today as one was quite heavy enough all by itself, thankyouverymuch. On the plus side I did manage to get it up on the mezzanine (we do posh barns here), and just a case of lifting it 1m or so into place tomorrow morning. I shall probably only get one other done tomorrow as I should like to level the first one up - even if only temporarily. It will take a bit of time.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

I have been a good boy this morning. I managed to get the other two out and onto the trestles. They been trimmed to length and given a going-over with a plane to clean them up along the edges AND they've been manhandled onto the mezzanine. The one I did yesterday is in place but not levelled nor in its final position. The levelling I shall do this afternoon as it's decided to rain - forecast for the next two days. I shall be able to continue working in the dry.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

PS: It's heritage weekend here in France, and our local station will re-open on Sunday afternoon for a talk about the arrival of the classic Ligne 4, the creation of the station and its heyday, followed by a small repast of local produce. I'm going as the French side of the family (great-grandparents) were involved in its design and construction and that of the viaduct at Chaumont. We have still the original plans.

[Philou]

Levelling of the beam was done - or at least the line was levelled. I can now buy my supports (columns) tomorrow. The hard bit comes later as the wall from which they will be supported is at an angle and I'm going to have to put my thinking cap on as how to secure the feet without disturbing the wall. It's as near-dammit dry stone. The earth/lime mortar turns to dust when disturbed.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[JeffP]

Sounds very interesting.

Unsure about rawl bolts, when we needed beams to cross a 10 m barn a strucural engineer told me to excavate the wall, place beam, pack it level and fill with lime mortar. We also painted the ends of the beams that would be inside the wall with bitumen. It's not moved yet.

 

Velux windows can be had with an electrical control which is excellent.

One control can open/close any or all windows to whatever you want.

They also close automatically if it rains.

 

You can add coloured blackout blinds, also electrical and on the same system, and even metal external roller shutters against hail.

An excellent product all round, but I must stress: GET THEM FITTED BY SOMEONE WITH EXPERIENCE.

 

Have you thought of a window?

My wife and I put one in a metre thick wall using a ready made uPVC window with integral roller shutter grom the local BricoDepot.

Window was 350 euros, cement etc and a couple of Acrow props plus shuttering, another 100 euros.

[Philou]

@JeffP I did originally consider embedding the beams into the wall, but as the wall appears to have been - well, shall we say - distressed in a previous life, and the mortar has crumbled, I decided I wouldn't do anything to disturb the wall, other than on its external face. I used the same method for our sun-deck at the back of the house - and that's been subject to various live loads over the past three years and nothing moved - it being of a similar size to that of my railway room. Lime mortar IS the way to go. I've used that extensively on internal and external walls where I've repointed. There is some in the last photo above.

 

The wall-plate can't fall off the wall as the joists will be secured onto the beam at the other end and the free-ends of the joists will be extended by non-load bearing timber work so that they touch the house wall at that end - no movement will be possible.

 

Thanks for the info on Velux, I shall go for some windows in the roof - not only for light but ventilation too. I won't be doing any windows in the wall as there's only one external wall available (the two others are party walls) and that wall is the lowest at about 1.5m high where I shall be having some landscape on the layout that will be already 900mm off the floor.

 

Update later regarding the works done on Thursday (none yesterday due to a family birthday).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

Here we go - a couple of pictures showing the new supporting beam in position but to be finally levelled. There hangs a tale too. Due to the long timbers being in stock for about three years and having arrived direct from the woods (mobile sawmill in the forest near-by), there was nowhere that I could stock them flat (too long in any part of the barn) and they took on a slight hog as they were laid at an angle. This I shall use to my advantage as in a similar manner to a prestressed concrete beam, I have laid the three pieces hog side up and I expect the weight of the new joists to gradually force the beams down (my weight was just enough to reduce the hog a little on one - three is another kettle of fish), and with 26 joists due to arrive, I think that should work, otherwise it'll be down to some big sash-cramps.

 

Anyway, they're in place and today's job was to form some concrete pads on which to place some timber plates to act as bases to the new timber supports. These should be with me during the course of next week. Monday's job will be measuring out and screwing in place cleats to secure the free ends of the joists. They too, should arrive with the supports.

 

 

 

(I think that once the new supports are up, I ought 'hide' our removal boxes with gawd knows what in them with a bit of plaster board  ).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

Not much happened over the last few days - new post and base put in place, a couple of concrete pads cast and half my cleats in place ready for the joists. What I have done is to strap down the beam to the post - I could have pushed it over had I been minded to - all nicely secured now. I have to now wait for the timber yard to have his stock and deliver my bits to me - I think he said by the end of the week - fingers crossed.

 

Here's a photo or two:

 

 

This what they use here to hold formwork against the wall. If similar exists in the UK, then I've never seen them. Easy to use, hammer the spike into a joint and tap the bottom of the 'spoon' along the spike until the 'spoon' jams the wood in place. Pour and wait until the mortar/concrete has gone orf and just tap the bottom of the 'spoon' back up the spike and off it comes. I've seen something similar in an old carpenters' worktable for holding down pieces of wood instead of sash-cramps.

 

 

One of the new posts in place supporting the old and new beams. Five more to go (including those needed to form the new stair-well).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[Andy Hayter]

" I have to now wait for the timber yard to have his stock and deliver my bits to me - I think he said by the end of the week "

 

But did he say which week?  This France after all.  Where in terms of construction and materials, Manana has been developed into a science.

 

 

Andy

[Philou]

Ah ha @Andy Hayter ! I did think which month rather than year. Good news is that I called into the timber yard this morning and provided the sawmill have got my wood ready, it will be delivered to my door tomorrow as he has a large order to collect. We're lucky in that we live in an area that there is so much wood, they don't quite know what to do with it.

 

(Things have become complex as the environmentalists think that we are vandalising the forests in France and we have to import a certain amount per year, whereas France would be self-sufficient AND have sustainable wood management without having imports! In these parts, wood is left to rot as we can't get rid of it - otherwise we pay to have it taken away - go figure!).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

@Andy Hayter Well! Quelle surprise! My joists will be delivered in about an hour (as I write this). Trouble is Mrs Philou is very concerned that if I leave all 24 outside this afternoon they may not be there when we return later this evening - besides it's forecast very heavy rain tonight. Looks as if I may have to forego club this afternoon and hump my joists under cover .

 

If all goes well, I may have the makings of a new sub-floor in place by the end of the week - yay !

 

Flooring to follow and that will be another kettle of fish.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip