Liverpool Central-Manchester London Road trains?

[1165Valour]

Was looking into the MSJ&AR, and I was wondering if there were any through trains operated between Liverpool Central and Manchester London Road. It would seem at least possible, as the MSJ&AR allowed for it, but as I couldn't find any explicit references to such, I didn't want to assume. I suspect they must have, otherwise I'm not sure what purpose the junction at Cornbrook with the CLC served.

Edited June 17, 2021 by GWRSwindon

[65179]

On 17/06/2021 at 04:08, GWRSwindon said:

Was looking into the MSJ&AR, and I was wondering if there any through trains operated between Liverpool Central and Manchester London Road. It would seem at least possible, as the MSJ&AR allowed for it, but as I couldn't find any explicit references to such, I didn't want to assume. I suspect they must have, otherwise I'm not sure what purpose the junction at Cornbrook with the CLC served.

 

Whilst my answer to your question is "probably", it isn't really the right question for reasons I'll try to explain.

 

The early history of what became the CLC and its relationship with the MSJ&A is all a bit convoluted, but the bit of line at Cornbrook East Jct linking the CLC to the MSJ&A (opened 1873) actually pre-dates the line to the first temporary Manchester Central station by 4 or so years (temp station opened 1877, permanent station opened 1880). Paul Bolger in his CLC books states that trains off the CLC (including Liverpool trains) used London Rd via the MSJ&A initially before the temporary Central station opened. However more reliably the Nigel Dyckhoff books state Oxford Rd was the terminus. 

 

After Central opened the link was still useful. It gave access off the MSJ&A to Trafford Park (at one point the largest industrial park in the world) and the MSC system (again the later opening of the Manchester Central Station Railway - the Fallowfield Loop - made this less useful).

 

I can't find anything on MSJ&A loco servicing at the north end of the line so I don't know if Trafford Park shed, or Cornbrook shed before it, was ever used for the MS&L/GC/LNER locos used prior to electrification and during engineering work thereafter.

 

Further Edit: Locomotive servicing needs were provided for by an engine shed at Altrincham which was closed and demolished after electrification.

 

Edit: Before the MR was told to quit London Road it seems it ran some trains over the MSJ&A and CLC to reach Liverpool. 

 

Simon

Edited August 31, 2021 by 65179
Forgot the Midland

[1165Valour]

5 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Whilst my answer to your question is "probably", it isn't really the right question for reasons I'll try to explain.

 

The early history of what became the CLC and its relationship with the MSJ&A is all a bit convoluted, but the bit of line at Cornbrook East Jct linking the CLC to the MSJ&A (opened 1873) actually pre-dates the line to the first temporary Manchester Central station by 4 or so years (temp station opened 1877, permanent station opened 1880). Paul Bolger in his CLC books states that trains off the CLC (including Liverpool trains) used London Rd via the MSJ&A initially before the temporary Central station opened. However more reliably the Nigel Dyckhoff books state Oxford Rd was the terminus. 

 

After Central opened the link was still useful. It gave access off the MSJ&A to Trafford Park (at one point the largest industrial park in the world) and the MSC system (again the later opening of the Manchester Central Station Railway - the Fallowfield Loop - made this less useful).

 

I can't find anything on MSJ&A loco servicing at the north end of the line so I don't know if Trafford Park shed, or Cornbrook shed before it, was ever used for the MS&L/GC/LNER locos used prior to electrification and during engineering work thereafter.

 

Edit: Before the MR was told to quit London Road it seems it ran some trains over the MSJ&A and CLC to reach Liverpool. 

 

Simon

Ah, I believe I understand now. It strikes me as odd that trains coming from Sheffield over the Woodhead line couldn't just run to Liverpool Central via the MSJ&A.

[woodenhead]

It would also be easier to send a train via Fallowfield leaving the Woodhead route at Fairfield as it was quieter than trying to cross the station throat at London Road which was already constrained with services.  I believe it would only be services reversing at Central that would do this, though Throstle's nest was a triangular junction some Liverpool trains off the GC would also route via Stockport Tiviot Dale from Godley and miss Manchester altogether.

[John-Miles]

I remember in the late 1960s catching trains from Lime Street to Manchester Central. One Sunday diversion went via Tyldesly (hope I spelt that right) and I was concerned about getting my onward connection.

[Curlew]

The MS&L at one time considered a cross-Manchester line of its own before Manchester Central was built. Suggests there may have been operating or capacity problems with using the MSJ&A?

[Steamport Southport]

8 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

 

Edit: Before the MR was told to quit London Road it seems it ran some trains over the MSJ&A and CLC to reach Liverpool. 

 

Simon

 

Midland trains on the CLC to Liverpool?

 

Spinner and a train of classic MR clerestory coaches here at Halewood.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/halewood/index.shtml

 

 

Jason

[65179]

26 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Midland trains on the CLC to Liverpool?

 

Spinner and a train of classic MR clerestory coaches here at Halewood.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/halewood/index.shtml

 

 

Jason

 

Nice photo. That looks like one of the later Liverpool-Chinley expresses with through carriages for St Pancras. They left the Manchester line at Glazebrook Jct and ran either via the 1902 cut-off route through Cheadle Heath or via Tiviot Dale and Marple. At that point you could travel to Manchester Victoria and beyond from Chinley as well. 

 

The history of MR services to Manchester and Liverpool is very complicated!

 

Simon

[65179]

1 hour ago, Curlew said:

The MS&L at one time considered a cross-Manchester line of its own before Manchester Central was built. Suggests there may have been operating or capacity problems with using the MSJ&A?

 

Certainly Oxford Rd couldn't cope with increasing MSJ&A traffic plus the also increasing traffic from the CLC in the early 1870s (including  up to 16 Oxford Rd-Liverpool Central trains at the latter's opening in 1874 according to E M Johnson's Manchester Central book).  Thus the initial plan for a more central station and then later Central (if you see what I mean). The MR was given notice to quit London Rd in 1875 and this then resulted in the MR's line-building to gain alternative access to the station (Central) they were in any case part-funding (as a partner in the CLC).

 

Simon

Edited June 17, 2021 by 65179

[1165Valour]

One feels for the traveller from Sheffield or Marylebone, who couldn't simply get in and get off at Liverpool Central, but would have to either reverse at Manchester Central or catch a hansom cab.

[Curlew]

23 minutes ago, GWRSwindon said:

One feels for the traveller from Sheffield or Marylebone, who couldn't simply get in and get off at Liverpool Central, but would have to either reverse at Manchester Central or catch a hansom cab.

A perverse choice for many, as London had significantly more direct services to Liverpool - and from Sheffield there would probably be through Midland coaches if not through trains taking the direct route via Cheadle Heath once the Dore & Totley line was open?

[woodenhead]

14 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

One feels for the traveller from Sheffield or Marylebone, who couldn't simply get in and get off at Liverpool Central, but would have to either reverse at Manchester Central or catch a hansom cab.

I don't think back then people thought in quite the same way we do now and look for direct routes, everything took time and people were used to different modes of transport to get from A-B, remember in the very early days getting from London to Glasgow meant a train to Fleetwood, an overnight stay, a ship to Ardrossan and another train into Glasgow, followed by a walk or horse/cart to your destination.

[PenrithBeacon]

18 hours ago, Curlew said:

The MS&L at one time considered a cross-Manchester line of its own before Manchester Central was built. Suggests there may have been operating or capacity problems with using the MSJ&A?

This problem, and the LNWR's intransigent attitude towards extra traffic on the MSJ&A, led to the construction of the ST&A in the 1860s which acted as part of a by-pass route from the MS&L and the LNW's Yorkshire and Lancashire networks which were physically quite separate. The story of how the LNW gained running rights over the ST&A is a study in incompetence on the part of the MS&L's nominees on the ST&A's board! 

[Curlew]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

This problem, and the LNWR's intransigent attitude towards extra traffic on the MSJ&A, led to the construction of the ST&A in the 1860s which acted as part of a by-pass route from the MS&L and the LNW's Yorkshire and Lancashire networks which were physically quite separate. The story of how the LNW gained running rights over the ST&A is a study in incompetence on the part of the MS&L's nominees on the ST&A's board! 

ST&A? Please pardon my ignorance

[woodenhead]

22 minutes ago, Curlew said:

ST&A? Please pardon my ignorance

Stockport, Timperley & Altrincham - part of the by-pass route through South Manchester from Tiviot Dale to Glazebrook as far as Skelton Junction where it branched to Altrincham

Edited June 18, 2021 by woodenhead

[PenrithBeacon]

Sorry: Stockport, Timperley & Altrincham Railway a constituent of the CLC.

[Steamport Southport]

Timperley, home to Frank Sidebottom!