Staines to West Drayton line

[dibber25]

The question of single cars or MBS/DTS combinations seems to have been as much down to date as anything else. Apart from GWR railcars (brought in because of a shortage of steam crews in the London area) the first DMUs were the Gloucester MBS - Class 122  (in 1958). Photos show them on the Staines branch either singly or in pairs of two MBS. The Gloucesters left circa 1960 once the Pressed Steel (121) cars were available. There are pictures of these running as MBS+DTS on the Staines branch and I certainly remember seeing them. However, they probably didn't last long as pairs because apart from the morning and afternoon runs that served the trading estate halts, that much accommodation was seldom needed. There was something very special about the ride across Staines Moor in the rain with the wet willow leaves slapping against the windscreen and the gentle rolling from side-to-side on track that was generally well maintained up to the end. It is impossible to imagine it now as gravel raising, the M25 and Heathrow airport have ruined the area. (CJL)

 

Having said that, the first picture I find is a Gloucester MBS+DTS entering Staines West when the signal box was still staffed! The second is a Pressed Steel DTS+MBS at Staines West (Keith Jaggers picture). Now here's a teaser for you. Why did Staines West have Great EASTERN Railway canopy ironwork and valancing?

Edited June 19, 2021 by dibber25

[Siberian Snooper]

Here's the YouTube clip.

 

 

 

[Re6/6]

Many thanks both. Very informative.

[hmrspaul]

Thanks to Chris for getting involved with this thread, and for confirming my understanding that there were through services to London until (near the) end. 

 

I have a summer 1936 timetable booklet for the GWR London, Reading and Oxford districts. It is not easy to work out what are shuttles and what are through services - not least because of confusion with the Uxbridge services. However, it does look like the 7.52 from Staines which arrived at West Drayton 8.27 and Hayes and Harlington 8.34 (not long enough to be a connecting service?) didn't simply stop at Paddington 9.1 but then went to Liverpool Street at 9.21 stopping at many intermediate stations on the "Circle" line.  An 8.32 departure did the same. There appear to have been returns from LS at 8.57 - WD 10.00 and Staines 10.41 and a 6.19pm LS, - WD 7.12pm and Staines 7.36pm. These all had connections to/from Uxbridge but there were others which appear to be through services to/from Uxbridge. There were no evening services to LS shown. Saturdays were also different for the returns as offices closed at lunch on a Saturday - my Dads did. 

 

I know little of my Dads railway service; he was not an "enthusiast". However post war he had a period of being the sole TSSA (salaried staff) job at Uxbridge, but he showed little interest when I showed him an article in BRILL about Uxbridge a decade or so ago. I've no idea if he was still there when we moved from Alperton to Staines in 1954, but he was soon working at Paddington HQ and used these services every day.

 

Nice to see the photos Chris, I don't remember seeing the 3-car unit before. My main memory of the single car DMU was the huge exhausts on the front of the cab. I do recollect an evening service from WD to Staines being steam hauled, it wasn't all diesel. 

 

Another more general area timetable books of this period (Bus, coach, underground and surface services) doesn't mention the use of "streamlined" trains on the Staines service, there were some to Windsor. It also called Staines SR Staines Junction. 

 

Paul

[Rugd1022]

I took these shots of the fixed distant next to the bridge carrying the GW mainline over the line back in February 2008 when I had to relieve a mate who'd unfortunately had a SPAD down there, I parked the staff van at West Drayton and walked along the branch....

 

 

 

 

 

I remember thinking at the time how nice it would be if a Hymek or a D63xx suddenly appeared.... 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Rugd1022

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, jointline said:

Interesting!   But Table 51 (Staines Branch) in the WR Public Timetables doesn't show this as a through train, although Table 50 (Reading to Paddington) has a note "8.5 am from Staines" against the 8.28 from West Drayton.

Neither does it show this as 1st and 2nd Class from Staines, so wonder if a ticket would/could gave been issued for 1st class travel?!! (Given this branch was advertised as 2nd Class only).

Typical of the time in that there was very little promotion of these branches, even when they could offer a potentially  attractive service. 

It isn't shown as a through train to Paddington for the simple reason that Paddington isn't shown in the station bank - as was also  the case with the Uxbridge  and Windsor branches.  This seems to have been the case going a long way back - certainly no different in the 1929 book although in that book the Paddington-Reading local service pages included Uxbridge, Staines, and Windsor in the station bank.  Presumably Uxbridge and Staines were removed from the station bank in what became Table 50 with the changeover to the much smaller page format as still existed in the early 1950s (a wartime economy?).

 

So as far as 'typical of the time' is concerned it goes a lot further back in time - to at least the 1929.  And in fact the Summer and Winter 1963 services both had two through  trains from Staines to Paddington on weekdays (the 08.05 in the morning and another in the evening) both being back workings of trains which had worked onto the branch.

 

PS 'station bank' is the proper name for the vertical column in a timetable which shows station/location names.

[jointline]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

It isn't shown as a through train to Paddington for the simple reason that Paddington isn't shown in the station bank - as was also  the case with the Uxbridge  and Windsor branches.  This seems to have been the case going a long way back - certainly no different in the 1929 book although in that book the Paddington-Reading local service pages included Uxbridge, Staines, and Windsor in the station bank.  Presumably Uxbridge and Staines were removed from the station bank in what became Table 50 with the changeover to the much smaller page format as still existed in the early 1950s (a wartime economy?).

 

So as far as 'typical of the time' is concerned it goes a lot further back in time - to at least the 1929.  And in fact the Summer and Winter 1963 services both had two through  trains from Staines to Paddington on weekdays (the 08.05 in the morning and another in the evening) both being back workings of trains which had worked onto the branch.

 

PS 'station bank' is the proper name for the vertical column in a timetable which shows station/location names.

 

I agree, but it just seems inconsistent  (Greenford, Henley and Marlow all showed through trains to Paddington  by the note T) so why not Uxbridge and Staines.   After all,  presumably timetables are meant to inform and encourage the travelling public.  Not putting Paddington (or Reading) in the station bank meant that the punter had to then look at another page to see when their connection would be.  

Or possibly they were working on the assumption  (as I was informed by a senior manager) that nobody would travel from either Uxbridge or Staines to London by WR as there were better alternative services.  

 

[jointline]

4 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Thanks to Chris for getting involved with this thread, and for confirming my understanding that there were through services to London until (near the) end. 

 

I have a summer 1936 timetable booklet for the GWR London, Reading and Oxford districts. It is not easy to work out what are shuttles and what are through services - not least because of confusion with the Uxbridge services. However, it does look like the 7.52 from Staines which arrived at West Drayton 8.27 and Hayes and Harlington 8.34 (not long enough to be a connecting service?) didn't simply stop at Paddington 9.1 but then went to Liverpool Street at 9.21 stopping at many intermediate stations on the "Circle" line.  An 8.32 departure did the same. There appear to have been returns from LS at 8.57 - WD 10.00 and Staines 10.41 and a 6.19pm LS, - WD 7.12pm and Staines 7.36pm. These all had connections to/from Uxbridge but there were others which appear to be through services to/from Uxbridge. There were no evening services to LS shown. Saturdays were also different for the returns as offices closed at lunch on a Saturday - my Dads did. 

 

I know little of my Dads railway service; he was not an "enthusiast". However post war he had a period of being the sole TSSA (salaried staff) job at Uxbridge, but he showed little interest when I showed him an article in BRILL about Uxbridge a decade or so ago. I've no idea if he was still there when we moved from Alperton to Staines in 1954, but he was soon working at Paddington HQ and used these services every day.

 

Nice to see the photos Chris, I don't remember seeing the 3-car unit before. My main memory of the single car DMU was the huge exhausts on the front of the cab. I do recollect an evening service from WD to Staines being steam hauled, it wasn't all diesel. 

 

Another more general area timetable books of this period (Bus, coach, underground and surface services) doesn't mention the use of "streamlined" trains on the Staines service, there were some to Windsor. It also called Staines SR Staines Junction. 

 

Paul

Others will know more than me, but I believe the GWR suburban services through to Liverpool Street ceased on the outbreak of war in 1939, and were never resumed.   Engine change (to Met electric locos) was at Bishops Road, Paddington. 

[jointline]

17 hours ago, dibber25 said:

The question of single cars or MBS/DTS combinations seems to have been as much down to date as anything else. Apart from GWR railcars (brought in because of a shortage of steam crews in the London area) the first DMUs were the Gloucester MBS - Class 122  (in 1958). Photos show them on the Staines branch either singly or in pairs of two MBS. The Gloucesters left circa 1960 once the Pressed Steel (121) cars were available. There are pictures of these running as MBS+DTS on the Staines branch and I certainly remember seeing them. However, they probably didn't last long as pairs because apart from the morning and afternoon runs that served the trading estate halts, that much accommodation was seldom needed. There was something very special about the ride across Staines Moor in the rain with the wet willow leaves slapping against the windscreen and the gentle rolling from side-to-side on track that was generally well maintained up to the end. It is impossible to imagine it now as gravel raising, the M25 and Heathrow airport have ruined the area. (CJL)

 

Having said that, the first picture I find is a Gloucester MBS+DTS entering Staines West when the signal box was still staffed! The second is a Pressed Steel DTS+MBS at Staines West (Keith Jaggers picture). Now here's a teaser for you. Why did Staines West have Great EASTERN Railway canopy ironwork and valancing?

Chris,  here's another one with STAINES  rather than STAINES WEST on the destination blind, taken July 1961. 

[Engineer]

Today I was looking for images for a completely different subject but came across this Flickr album of WR West London subjects, including a few that are relevant to the Staines branch:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/trains-travel/albums/72157694590276374/with/40376243545/

[jointline]

15 minutes ago, Engineer said:

Today I was looking for images for a completely different subject but came across this Flickr album of WR West London subjects, including a few that are relevant to the Staines branch:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/trains-travel/albums/72157694590276374/with/40376243545/

Many thanks for this link!  Wish I could have afforded colour film in those days,  could barely afford black and white! Completely off-topic, but the clerestory and four wheelers shown at Hayes  (I have identical pictures in B & W) were there for the re-signalling scheme in the early sixties.   I always show them to modellers who want four wheelers in BR livery!

[The Stationmaster]

17 minutes ago, jointline said:

 

I agree, but it just seems inconsistent  (Greenford, Henley and Marlow all showed through trains to Paddington  by the note T) so why not Uxbridge and Staines.   After all,  presumably timetables are meant to inform and encourage the travelling public.  Not putting Paddington (or Reading) in the station bank meant that the punter had to then look at another page to see when their connection would be.  

Or possibly they were working on the assumption  (as I was informed by a senior manager) that nobody would travel from either Uxbridge or Staines to London by WR as there were better alternative services.  

 

I would think that the punters from Staines knew pretty well what trains were on offer to them - particularly any who might have commuted to London.  The same could no doubt be said of Uxbridge and definitely of Windsor.

 

Considerable numbers of through trains off London Division branches weren't at various times over the years shown as running throughout in the public book.  A particularly good example of that being the busy Windsor branch where the through trains were not indicated even after the through trains on the Wycombe and Henley branches had been identified by a column note (I can't date when that started but they weren't so indicated in the Winter 1952 book).  In any event the vast majority of intending passengers didn't buy  a- or even pick up a free local - timetable but asked about train times at a booking or enquiry office and most regular passengers stuck with the same train year after year. 

 

In many respects I think the unnamed 'senior manager' was probably right.  While it was a very different sort of ride the Met from Uxbridge was probably more attractive for many people than the remaining GWR branch.  And I learn't many years ago that very large numbers of folk travelling into London from elsewhere regarded Paddington as a rather useless place to find yourself at if you wanted to visit many parts of central London; they much preferred Waterloo as their entry point to the capital.  For commuters to the usual London business destinations, particularly the city, the WR route from Staines was a very poor alternative to the SR route.

[jointline]

7 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I would think that the punters from Staines knew pretty well what trains were on offer to them - particularly any who might have commuted to London.  The same could no doubt be said of Uxbridge and definitely of Windsor.

 

Considerable numbers of through trains off London Division branches weren't at various times over the years shown as running throughout in the public book.  A particularly good example of that being the busy Windsor branch where the through trains were not indicated even after the through trains on the Wycombe and Henley branches had been identified by a column note (I can't date when that started but they weren't so indicated in the Winter 1952 book).  In any event the vast majority of intending passengers didn't buy  a- or even pick up a free local - timetable but asked about train times at a booking or enquiry office and most regular passengers stuck with the same train year after year. 

 

In many respects I think the unnamed 'senior manager' was probably right.  While it was a very different sort of ride the Met from Uxbridge was probably more attractive for many people than the remaining GWR branch.  And I learn't many years ago that very large numbers of folk travelling into London from elsewhere regarded Paddington as a rather useless place to find yourself at if you wanted to visit many parts of central London; they much preferred Waterloo as their entry point to the capital.  For commuters to the usual London business destinations, particularly the city, the WR route from Staines was a very poor alternative to the SR route.

Thanks Mike, very informative.

 

[Engineer]

Having seen the information on Colnbrook and the Google images, I thought I'd take a look as I'm not too far away.  I made a little detour in this morning's bus trip and obtained pictures - apologies for camera in decline.  Looks like there is building going on south of the former road crossing.  Remaining track north of the road crossing is overgrown.  Two general views included, too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dibber25]

That is awful. A while since I've been there and scarcely recognisable. Looks like the public footpath beside the railway south of the crossing has been obliterated. Those new-build apartments are on what was a used car lot. North of the crossing I guess the Heathrow fuel sidings have been disused throughout the pandemic as there won't have been many flights. I think the fuel trains only supplemented what went in via pipeline anyway. Here's a couple of Colnbrook shots to enjoy. The Colas 60 is assembling the empty tanks and was taken about 4 years ago from the A4 Bath Road bridge. The cab view was from an up train held at the signal, I think, to await crossing the down working of the morning through train to Paddington. (CJL)

Edited June 20, 2021 by dibber25

[The Stationmaster]

You are correct Chris - the fuel trains effectively only supplement the pipeline/act as a replacement for it when it is undergoing maintenance  or  run in order to make sure the unloading system is in good working order.

 

Alas the ravages of building on former railway land are all too frequent nowadays.

 

 

 

[Engineer]

A while ago I passed through the Colnbrook area and, with time to spare and favourable weather, chose to make a small diversion.  I found a path, maybe unofficial and in a very poor state of repair, that led from a Poyle estate road to the trackbed of the former Staines branch.  I believe this might have been access for a foot crossing.  There is much accumulated rubbish in the area.  

Roughly at the boundary of the former railway land, there is a post of bridge rail section, presumably a remnant of company fencing/gate post support.  

 

Moving north along the track bed, there is a river bridge, looks like a relatively modern span but with older railway abutments.  

 

 

Even further north the track bed reaches the south extent of the development site across the line.  In the far distance of the image, just visible is the old building at the Colnbrook station site and a last remaining sign/lights on a post for the level crossing.

 

Returning to the previous access path then heading southward the former line becomes less-used and at times more of a jungle path, occasionally ballast underfoot.  It runs out after a few hundred yards.  

 

From OS map evidence, the path leading to Poyle Estate Halt seems to have been built over as the estate evolved so it is hard to locate the former station site precisely.  There has been some building beyond the established edge of the estate and onto the footprint of the old line and there is assorted old and new building material dumped in the general area where the platform may have been

 

This is amateur speculation only.  I wonder if the discarded large, low reinforced concrete portals have a railway past? 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/p/poyle_estate_halt/poyle(8.1957_harden)estate_halt_old7.jpg

Very recently I stood opposite a structure (below) including some 'family similarity', which encouraged me to post.   

[hmrspaul]

On 21/06/2021 at 12:28, The Stationmaster said:

You are correct Chris - the fuel trains effectively only supplement the pipeline/act as a replacement for it when it is undergoing maintenance  or  run in order to make sure the unloading system is in good working order.

 

Alas the ravages of building on former railway land are all too frequent nowadays.

 

 

 

Perhaps it does only supplement the pipeline, but RTT shows a daily working - and one that has worked for the past few days. RTT has a number of Colnbrook destinations but it is this one that shows the regular oil train workings Colnbrook Baa Gbrf

 

Searching for Colnbrook Signal T3502 shows more workings from various Colnbrook destinations. Just a very quick example https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:CNBK502/2024-04-09/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt A couple of Aggregate trains and a couple of oil. Certainly very different to the Colnbrook of old!

 

Paul

[jim.snowdon]

On 21/06/2021 at 12:28, The Stationmaster said:

You are correct Chris - the fuel trains effectively only supplement the pipeline/act as a replacement for it when it is undergoing maintenance  or  run in order to make sure the unloading system is in good working order.

 

Alas the ravages of building on former railway land are all too frequent nowadays.

 

 

 

The fuel train is a regular working originating from the Isle of Grain and is a completely different flow to the pipelines which, from memory, originate from the Fawley refinery.

 

It's a flow that has been going, possibly on and off, for some time. I was involved in a project to procure a fleet of tank cars for Q8 Petroleum around 1990 that was scuppered by the actions of one S Hussein.

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 11/04/2024 at 00:41, hmrspaul said:

Perhaps it does only supplement the pipeline, but RTT shows a daily working - and one that has worked for the past few days. RTT has a number of Colnbrook destinations but it is this one that shows the regular oil train workings Colnbrook Baa Gbrf

 

Searching for Colnbrook Signal T3502 shows more workings from various Colnbrook destinations. Just a very quick example https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:CNBK502/2024-04-09/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt A couple of Aggregate trains and a couple of oil. Certainly very different to the Colnbrook of old!

 

Paul

Paul I suspect the traffic normally sent in by rail has probably changed somewhat hence more frequent trips.

[VIA185]

On 09/04/2024 at 20:18, Engineer said:

A while ago I passed through the Colnbrook area and, with time to spare and favourable weather, chose to make a small diversion.  I found a path, maybe unofficial and in a very poor state of repair, that led from a Poyle estate road to the trackbed of the former Staines branch.  I believe this might have been access for a foot crossing.  There is much accumulated rubbish in the area.  

Roughly at the boundary of the former railway land, there is a post of bridge rail section, presumably a remnant of company fencing/gate post support.  

 

Moving north along the track bed, there is a river bridge, looks like a relatively modern span but with older railway abutments.  

 

 

Even further north the track bed reaches the south extent of the development site across the line.  In the far distance of the image, just visible is the old building at the Colnbrook station site and a last remaining sign/lights on a post for the level crossing.

 

Returning to the previous access path then heading southward the former line becomes less-used and at times more of a jungle path, occasionally ballast underfoot.  It runs out after a few hundred yards.  

 

From OS map evidence, the path leading to Poyle Estate Halt seems to have been built over as the estate evolved so it is hard to locate the former station site precisely.  There has been some building beyond the established edge of the estate and onto the footprint of the old line and there is assorted old and new building material dumped in the general area where the platform may have been

 

This is amateur speculation only.  I wonder if the discarded large, low reinforced concrete portals have a railway past? 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/p/poyle_estate_halt/poyle(8.1957_harden)estate_halt_old7.jpg

Very recently I stood opposite a structure (below) including some 'family similarity', which encouraged me to post.   

The dumped concrete frames in the first picture certainly look like the remains of the halt platform. The last time I went back that way I photographed a Class 60 on the tanks at Colnbrook but I'm afraid I find the amount of change down there to be depressing - I just prefer to remember how it was. Here's the halt at Poyle Estate - probably 1964/5. 

[VIA185]

[VIA185]

I think this may be the bridge in your third/fourth pics. The bridge carrying the footpath was right beside the railway bridge and the footpath crossed under the railway immediately south of the bridges. When I last saw it (from memory) the wooden footpath bridge had gone and the footpath was diverted onto the much more substantial rail bridge. Incidentally the rail bridge had been replaced in the late 1970s (I don't have the date) but the Swindon 75ton breakdown crane came to Colnbrook to lift the girders and I have pics of it standing in the remains of Colnbrook station. I'll post one if I can find a scan. (CJL)

In this shot, the 47 was waiting while the secondman walked back from shutting the level crossing gates. (The gates were eventually demolished)

 

[VIA185]

Swindon 75ton crane in Colnbrook up platform after replacing underline bridge s. of station. (CJL)

[VIA185]

I see that the Class 66 hauling the Colnbrook-Grain empties on April 5th, was partially derailed at West Ealing. (CJL)