What made Triang more successful than Hornby Dublo and Trix?

[GoingUnderground]

42 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Yes, people prefer models of things they can readily see. Not always, but the majority do.

 

Always the exception when there is no local stuff. Lots of British, USA or European modellers in Australian, until high quality models of Australian prototypes became available, then many changed.

 

Previous Tri-ang Australian models sold in some numbers and later Lima. But once better models came, then those older models were put in the back of cupboards.

The only model that Triang made of an Australian prototype was of the Sydney Suburbans.

 

The rest of the Transcontinental range was always "generic" designs which were just about "close enough" to what could be seen in Canada, Australia and S Africa to pass muster.

 

Hornby Dublo wasn't that different to Triang in exporting UK outline models to the former countries of the Empire, or slightly "localised" versions of the UK outline models. To their credit Hornby did have the ACHO range of mainly French outline stock. 

[Il Grifone]

I believe the 'double-ended diesel' was also supposed to be an Australian prototype. How accurate it was, I couldn't say.....

 

The TC Pacific looked more like the real 2335 than the various Princesses did, though her scale is nearer to 00 than H0 I think.

[Pandora]

"Arguably, Triang, Dublo and Trix didn't look at the past. They "modelled" what was around at the time. The "cycling lion" was replaced by the "ferret & dartboard" and the black or green by Electric or Rail Blue when BR made the changes. Triang had a brief look back with the Lord of the Isles, Caley Single, Rocket, and the N. American style 2-6-0 Davy Crockett. Triang only started to look back towards the end of the '60s with the introduction of "Big 4" liveries on their existing models."

the Caley Single and a few vetran locos had been rerstored  to pre-grouping liveries and were working public trains and specials in Sotland,  The Caley Single qualified as being near-contemporay. A model Triang did not persue was the Jones 4-6-0 Goods, I believe a mockup for evaluation was produced, possibly using the Davy Crockett chassis?

[GoingUnderground]

4 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

I believe the 'double-ended diesel' was also supposed to be an Australian prototype. How accurate it was, I couldn't say.....

 

The TC Pacific looked more like the real 2335 than the various Princesses did, though her scale is nearer to 00 than H0 I think.

The double ended diesel, was based on the Victorian State Railways B-60, which itself was a double ended version of the GM1 class which was based on the EMD F-Unit locos. The B-60 had a Co-Co wheel arrangement whilst the Triang model was Bo-Bo using the standard Transcontinental 4 wheel motor and unpowered 4 wheel bogies. I don't know how accurate the rest of it was, but I think the Bo-Bo wheel arrangement means it is best described as inspired by the B-60 as opposed to being a model of the B-60.  Richard Lines in the Axiom videos describes the Transcontinental range as "generic" as opposed to country specific, IIRC.

[BernardTPM]

5 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

I was working on the basis that  if Maerklin had been in the UK it would have been with UK outline toys/models as there would have been little interest in German, French or Italian outline toys/models. British Trix used German Trix underpinings on several of their locos, and Maerklin could have done the same.

We might even have ended up with H0 gauge instead of OO.

Actually they did make a Warship in the late 1960s, but like so many attempts at British H0 the main dimension were out by varying amounts: right length for H0, slightly too tall, slightly wider than 4mm scale). It was reviewed in RM October '67 and cost £6/10/- (£120.65 inflation adjusted), compared to £2/19/3 , less than half the price, for Triang-Hornby's Hymek that came out around the same time.

Relatively expensive and out of scale, it disappeared without trace.

[GoingUnderground]

10 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

Märklin did make an attempt in the British market in the thirties with an H0/00 LMS compound. Probably the combination of price and only vaguely looking  like a compound killed it.

The item is now very rare. The remains of one made around £30000 some years ago

 

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2228850_3393-marklin-ho-pre-war-e800-lms-maroon-compound

and

https://www.vectis.co.uk/lot/282-ho-marklin_73307

 

2 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Actually they did make a Warship in the late 1960s, but like so many attempts at British H0 the main dimension were out by varying amounts: right length for H0, slightly too tall, slightly wider than 4mm scale). It was reviewed in RM October '67 and cost £6/10/- (£120.65 inflation adjusted), compared to £2/19/3 , less than half the price, for Triang-Hornby's Hymek that came out around the same time.

Relatively expensive and out of scale, it disappeared without trace.

So were these 2 locos 2 or 3 rail, and were they AC or DC? and what couplings were fitted?

[BernardTPM]

Both AC and DC as there was a Hamo version too, which the RM sample was. Standard continental couplings of the time: fixed hook & lifting loop (though the loco didn't have the loop fitted). At the time Märklin was imported by Richard Kohnstan (Riko).

[GoingUnderground]

By the end of the 1960s 2 rail DC with Triang couplings dominated the UK RTR market. A solitary loco to approximately H0 scale with incompatible couplings, even if it was 2 rail DC would seem to be an odd way to try to break into the UK market. It is also would seem to be an unusual choice for a first loco as British Trix had a Warship in their range from 1960 in their odd 3.8mm scale. From your description, the Maerklin Warship sounds equally dimensionally challenged, too short for OO, too wide for H0. 

 

In this video on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihchxLkjrwg it has the 3rd rail skate, and the cab front end and roofline looks to be all wrong, almost as if Maerklin had taken their DB V200 model and repainted it green.  But it may just be the viewing angle, If it was 3rd rail DC then it would be doomed to failure as 3 rail was no longer offered, other than on the rump of the Dublo 3 rail stock offloaded to Hattons and the like after production of Dublo 3 rail ended, whilst 3 rail AC ended to all intents and purposes in the UK when Trix changed to DC in the mid-1950s.

[kevinlms]

13 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

The double ended diesel, was based on the Victorian State Railways B-60, which itself was a double ended version of the GM1 class which was based on the EMD F-Unit locos. The B-60 had a Co-Co wheel arrangement whilst the Triang model was Bo-Bo using the standard Transcontinental 4 wheel motor and unpowered 4 wheel bogies. I don't know how accurate the rest of it was, but I think the Bo-Bo wheel arrangement means it is best described as inspired by the B-60 as opposed to being a model of the B-60.  Richard Lines in the Axiom videos describes the Transcontinental range as "generic" as opposed to country specific, IIRC.

You could say the same thing for many Tri-ang models (and most other manufacturers), as to whether they were a 'model' or a 'generic representation'. After all, the Princess was way short of it's scale length.

 

Despite the 4 wheel bogie, the model was always considered as a model of a 'B' Class in Australia, just not a very accurate one! Certainly NOT considered as part of the 'Transcontinental' range.

 

Another Victorian Railways model that comes to mind was the brake van, based on the standard long wheelbase chassis (BR brake & cattle wagon etc). It was to 4mm scale and looked huge compared to kit built stock.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/review_details.asp?reviewid=76

 

The orange version seemed to be far more common.

Edited June 28, 2021 by kevinlms
More info

[GoingUnderground]

I bow to your local knowledge.

[BernardTPM]

They also span an overhead electric from the same tooling, just with a different roof section to carry pantographs, etc. The cabs were defintiely GM E/F based, unlike the rather strangely shaped cab of the earlier single-ended TC diesel.

 

Incidentally in the late '70s Hornby did a completely new Australian diesel-electric model which was available in VR blue as a 'S' and in grey/maroon as a Commonwealth Rlys 'GM'. I'm surprised they didn't also do it in NSWGR red too as the 42 was all but identical too. The pictures from the catalogue shown on the website are pre-production models. The production ones looked very much better detailed. In tooling terms they were made around the same time as the BR Class 25 and show similar finesse in the grilles, etc.

Edited June 28, 2021 by BernardTPM

[Il Grifone]

The early TC items were rather poor. I've already mentioned the Pacific, the less said about the F units the better (another "could do better"), the passenger cars were quite good (if you overlook the short length and the awful bogies on the later issues), but the freight* cars were rubbish. Later cars were much improved, though scale remained dubious and the use of the 00 bogies did not help.

 

* I mistyped this as "fright cars". Perhaps I should have left it!

[railroadbill]

On 26/06/2021 at 14:29, kevinlms said:

But Märklin sales were quite good in other parts of Europe, whereas Tri-ang or Hornby Dublo were probably virtually zero.

If owners had an extensive Märklin collection, then probably they would want to keep and expand it.

 

Remember even in the early 60s, Märklin had a much larger catalogue than Dublo and it was international in flavour. German, Austrian, Swiss, Dutch, Swedish, French, Italian, Belgian and the USA models (albeit some repaints) appeared, so they had sales in those countries presumably.

 

https://katalog.dermodellbahnblog.de/maerklin-katalog/MA1965_DE.pdf

 

The prototype photos within, suggest that the models were aimed more at the adult market than Hornby Dublo or Tri-ang. Just look at the photo of the father and son making up models. A mid-teenager shown, not a 10 year old in school uniform.

Just been looking at the catalogue you posted. I must have had  a Märklin catalogue once back in the day, as some items look familiar. They certainly had quite a range.  The assemble-it-yourself locos look like they'd keep you occupied for a while (and you dad, according to the picture).  Also the quite wonderful remote controlled crane, with the electromagnet that would pick up  scrap metal and drop it in a truck. The bridges look high quality as well. They made a good selection of electric locos, including that fantastic "crockodile" Swiss loco, and the DRG E94 one as well. 

As you said, Märklin had (has) a very large range, and covered a number of European countries.  That NS TEE unit looks good...

Not exactly cheap of course...

Edited June 28, 2021 by railroadbill

[GoingUnderground]

47 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

The early TC items were rather poor. I've already mentioned the Pacific, the less said about the F units the better (another "could do better"), the passenger cars were quite good (if you overlook the short length and the awful bogies on the later issues), but the freight* cars were rubbish. Later cars were much improved, though scale remained dubious and the use of the 00 bogies did not help.

 

* I mistyped this as "fright cars". Perhaps I should have left it!

That would be true if they had been intended as scale models, but they weren't, they were intended as toys, and most of the TC range dates back to the mid/late 1950s when accuracy was less important than price. The same goes for the Princess, it was a toy made for Marks & Spencer, and was never intended to be a realistic scale model.  The TC series locos and rolling stock were not intended to be specific models as that would have made them country and "road" specific. The models would have been based on actual prototypes, and in the case of the double-ended diesel they appear to have used the B-60 as their source. So not it's not surprising that it bore a strong resemblance to that loco. The Steeple Cab, which used to switch between the BR and TC ranges in the catalogue, and the SR EMU have even more dubious parentages and it is not possible to precisely identify their prototypes. The TC Pacific was based on a Canadian loco, but stretched to use the Princess's running gear to save the cost of producing a new chassis and driving wheels for what would probably be a relatively low volume product.

 

The TC exception was the Sidney Suburbans, R.450/1/2 where, according to Hammond, in 1959 Rovex did obtain official drawings and worked from those to design the tooling as they wanted an Australian model to promote the recently launched catenary system in Australia, but using the existing 4 wheel motor bogie. Arguably the idea backfired on them as the Sydney Suburbans were unique to Sydney and the attempt to relivery them in blue to pass them off as Victoria's OHLE "Harris Cars" EMUs R.550/1/2 failed. 

[roythebus1]

On 26/06/2021 at 11:01, railroadbill said:

I was really just making the point of 2 incompatible products, if you had a betamax player I couldn't come and play my recorded VHS cassette on it and vice versa. So I could run my H-D 3r locos on friends 3R layouts, and theirs on mine, but not Triang.  So there was some diversity. Although I had a triang station with my Hornby railway, and later lots of Airfix buildings, the technical design kept you with one manufacturer's product.

Now current  oo rolling stock is designed for the same specification of track, so you can run it all together (although you could have an entire railway using Hornby products).

In a way it's the actual technical spec (2 rail rather than 3 rail) that took Triang ahead, and that spec continued to win, even after Triang failed.  Can't see anyone introducing a new 3 rail system now.

The odd one is Marklin,  still going strong with 20v AC and stud contact.

even the prototype isn't allowed to make any new 3-rail track, but can extend it's current train set for fill-in sections.

 

[PatB]

10 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

The TC exception was the Sidney Suburbans, R.450/1/2 where, according to Hammond, in 1959 Rovex did obtain official drawings and worked from those to design the tooling as they wanted an Australian model to promote the recently launched catenary system in Australia, but using the existing 4 wheel motor bogie. Arguably the idea backfired on them as the Sydney Suburbans were unique to Sydney and the attempt to relivery them in blue to pass them off as Victoria's OHLE "Harris Cars" EMUs R.550/1/2 failed. 

quite apart from the basic inaccuracy, the strong Melbourne vs Sydney parochial rivalry would have doomed that one.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, PatB said:

quite apart from the basic inaccuracy, the strong Melbourne vs Sydney parochial rivalry would have doomed that one.

Not just parochial rivalry. As any fule kno, the laws of physics change when you cross the Murray (in either direction...).

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, PatB said:

quite apart from the basic inaccuracy, the strong Melbourne vs Sydney parochial rivalry would have doomed that one.

Except you're missing an important thing. The Moldex factory where the Australian Tri-ang was made was in Fairfield, Victoria and not Fairfield, NSW. So how come a Melbourne factory didn't pick a local prototype?

 

The Sydney Suburban was hardly a great success because the production only lasted a couple of years. Yet the 'B' Class was made for far longer!

[Il Grifone]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Not just parochial rivalry. As any fule kno, the laws of physics change when you cross the Murray (in either direction...).

 

The Tamar in the UK works the same way!   Devonians used to say that  the Cornish left their tails in the Saltash left luggage office before crossing the bridge. I assume they have to leave them at home now.... 

[GoingUnderground]

4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Except you're missing an important thing. The Moldex factory where the Australian Tri-ang was made was in Fairfield, Victoria and not Fairfield, NSW. So how come a Melbourne factory didn't pick a local prototype?

 

The Sydney Suburban was hardly a great success because the production only lasted a couple of years. Yet the 'B' Class was made for far longer!

The double ended diesel was sold in the UK, and it was on the cover of the 5th edition 1959 UK catalogue. It sold well in the UK despite very few folks in the UK ever seeing one in the metal, probably down to the appeal of the Blue & Yellow livery.

 

The Sydney Suburbans' success was limited and I don't think that anyone would deny that. It's not too surprising given the lukewarm reception of the catenary system, which wasn't helped by the lack of suitable locos and MU stock, both in UK and Australian outline, to run beneath it. The Steeple Cab loco body had an even shorter 5 year lifespan ('59-64) than the Sydney Suburbans' 7 years (61-68).

 

Your point about the choice of OHLE EMU is well made. The pictures that I've seen of the "Harris" units would make for a very attractive model.

 

(Photo from Railroadpictures.de)

 

But it may be as simple as Moldex, or possibly Rovex in Margate, felt that Victoria already had a model in the double-ended diesel, and the Sydney Suburbans were chosen to increase interest in Triang Railways in NSW.

(Photo by John Howe on Pinterest)

[Fat Controller]

21 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

The early TC items were rather poor. I've already mentioned the Pacific, the less said about the F units the better (another "could do better"), the passenger cars were quite good (if you overlook the short length and the awful bogies on the later issues), but the freight* cars were rubbish. Later cars were much improved, though scale remained dubious and the use of the 00 bogies did not help.

 

* I mistyped this as "fright cars". Perhaps I should have left it!

The 'awful bogies' are still to be seen in the Hornby range; they've been used under the 100t bogie tank wagon since it was introduced in the late 1960s.

[Il Grifone]

Those seem to be the bogies of the second 'Canadian inspired*' series of TC coaches?  The ones I intended are those on the Vista dome here:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174816568034?hash=item28b3e122e2:g:zAAAAOSwwxlgzdAM

 

*As usual spoilt by being too short (the prototypes are 87' long, I believe), but they did have to negotiate 13½"curves.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Il Grifone

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

The double ended diesel was sold in the UK, and it was on the cover of the 5th edition 1959 UK catalogue. It sold well in the UK despite very few folks in the UK ever seeing one in the metal, probably down to the appeal of the Blue & Yellow livery.

 

The Sydney Suburbans' success was limited and I don't think that anyone would deny that. It's not too surprising given the lukewarm reception of the catenary system, which wasn't helped by the lack of suitable locos and MU stock, both in UK and Australian outline, to run beneath it. The Steeple Cab loco body had an even shorter 5 year lifespan ('59-64) than the Sydney Suburbans' 7 years (61-68).

 

Your point about the choice of OHLE EMU is well made. The pictures that I've seen of the "Harris" units would make for a very attractive model.

 

(Photo from Railroadpictures.de)

 

But it may be as simple as Moldex, or possibly Rovex in Margate, felt that Victoria already had a model in the double-ended diesel, and the Sydney Suburbans were chosen to increase interest in Triang Railways in NSW.

(Photo by John Howe on Pinterest)

The Harris trains for Victorian Railways, were indeed a favourite of mine to travel on. The first ones were supplied by Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Company.

 

The style clearly based on the trains for Toronto.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloucester_Railway_Carriage_and_Wagon_Company#/media/File:The_Red_Rocket.jpg

[GoingUnderground]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

The Harris trains for Victorian Railways, were indeed a favourite of mine to travel on. The first ones were supplied by Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Company.

 

The style clearly based on the trains for Toronto.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloucester_Railway_Carriage_and_Wagon_Company#/media/File:The_Red_Rocket.jpg

Makes you wonder if they would have done better modelling the Harris sets in VR Blue, and then moulding them in red as a "generic" 3rd rail EMU for Canada. The side windows at the cab end are not the same, and one wonders whether inserts in the mould might have been arranged so that it could have been more accurate.

 

Incidentally, the photo of the Sydney Red Rattlers that I posted earlier is of the 1957-60 ComEng cars, identifiable by the "S" target plate and the twin single doors to the cars, and these were the vehicles modelled by Triang. As the formation has two single deck trailers it must have been taken before 1964 when the single deckers were replaced with Tulloch double deck trailers and the ComEng "Sputnik" trailers lost their power operated doors to make them compatible with the older Leeds Forge cars. The Triang models look pretty good to me, but then I never saw them for real. 

[Titan]

43 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

 The side windows at the cab end are not the same, and one wonders whether inserts in the mould might have been arranged so that it could have been more accurate.

 

That would be extremely un Triang!