'Not to be run on the Caledonian Rly'

[Nick Holliday]

Superimposing the wagon drawing over the loading gauges doesn't show up any clash, but is there any significance in the fact that the photo in Tatlow of the wagon's partner, 21650, as built, has square ends to its rather hefty buffer beam, whereas all the other machinery wagons in the book have the bottom end cut on the diagonal?  There doesn't appear to be any writing on the side to back up the drawing - perhaps they found out by accident and applied the warning before getting round to trimming the beam?

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

Superimposing the wagon drawing over the loading gauges doesn't show up any clash, but is there any significance in the fact that the photo in Tatlow of the wagon's partner, 21650, as built, has square ends to its rather hefty buffer beam, whereas all the other machinery wagons in the book have the bottom end cut on the diagonal?  There doesn't appear to be any writing on the side to back up the drawing - perhaps they found out by accident and applied the warning before getting round to trimming the beam?

Yes, that sounds feasible, but wasn't just as easy to trim the buffer beam, as paint such an instruction on the side?

[Wickham Green too]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

..... I'm sure the Caledonian will have had some smaller-wheeled machinery trucks of its own - most big lines did - and even so those axleboxes don't reach down to that low-level limit, .......

A slight over-simplification in assuming that such wagons had outside bearings : I haven't got the C.R. Wagons book but surviving wagons DO seem to have outside bearings - the neighbouring North British certainly had trolleys with inside bearings, tho' .............. not that this has any 'bearing' on the issue to hand !

[JimC]

Here's the Caledonian gauge with the extra dimensions added. Checking the others I have, below 12 inches off the rail the Caledonian gauge is indeed smaller than others I have managed to source, but below 11 inches off the rail the LSWR gauge is smaller than the Caledonian one. 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by JimC

[JimC]

I've just had a look through the GWR General appendix for 1936, and the only restrictions on wagons I can find are for their 70ft Macaws, not allowed off the GWR with special arrangements, and for various covered wagons on the narrow SECR lines. The smallest wheels I can find on GWR wagons though are 2'8", an example of which is the equivalent GWR Serpent for agricultural machinery. If the wheels on the GE wagon were smaller (and lets not forget they'd lose maybe a couple of inches in wear before scrapping thickness) maybe they could just reach that corner of the CR gauge?

[Trog]

Say the wheels were 2' - 8" as I can not find a reference to their size, but we can see that they were small.

 

That gives 1' - 4" from the centre line of the axle to the rail less 2 1/4" for half the diameter of the journals, so 1' 1 3/4" from the underside of the journal to the rail. As the narrow part of the loading gauge rises to 1' - 0" above the rail that leaves 1 3/4" with new wheel tyres to fit the underside of the cast iron axlebox and the lubrication gear / reservoir  into. That is going to be tight even before the wheels start to wear.

[Wickham Green too]

........ if the wheelset is more than 7'6'' over axleboxes ! = 6'' beyond typical centres of journals.

 

Anyone got drawings of Great Eastern axleboxes ????

[Nick Holliday]

11 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

........ if the wheelset is more than 7'6'' over axleboxes ! = 6'' beyond typical centres of journals.

 

Anyone got drawings of Great Eastern axleboxes ????

HMRS drawings service https://hmrs.org.uk/drawings/standard-wagon-axlebox-e.html 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

HMRS drawings service https://hmrs.org.uk/drawings/standard-wagon-axlebox-e.html 

 

That's a grease box. The wagon in question was built with oil. But that drawing shows the outer face of the box 6" beyond the CL of the journals, so overall width would be 7'6". The oil box seems to have a raised part of its front face, so it might stick out half-an-inch more.

[turbos]

Having read through this thread this thought occurred to me ‘What was happening on the CR to provoke the GER to put such wording on a wagon?’ Something in a dark recess of my memory Ibrecalled that I’d read something about a legal spat about the gauge of CR rolling stock. The GER machinery wagon was built in 1907, this ties in with the introduction of the CR 65ft. ‘Grampian’ stock. Page 195 Ch.9 Para 3 of Mike Williams bible on CR Carriages: ‘The end and side throw coupled with their extreme width of 9 feet and 3 3/4 inches concerned the North British, whose contemporary carriages were 9 feet wide at most.’ The CR modified the door and commode handles and granted an indemnity to the NBR ‘so far as the extra width of the carriages is concerned.’ The introduction in 1907 of the 68 foot long Dia. 105 non-corridor, 11 compartment,Third certainly didn’t help the issue of the CR running carriages that were quite clearly outwith its own loading gauge. Only the NBR were in a position to go to the bother of getting the indemnity, the other Scottish railway companies appear not to have taken part in this battle. The GER machinery wagons operational wording could well be their reaction to the Caleys ‘Grampian’ behemoths.
 

Brian.

[Wickham Green too]

But the total number of Caley coaches - of any sort - that were ever likely to run on the Great Eastern must have been precisely .......... er ...... not very many !

[Compound2632]

16 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

But the total number of Caley coaches - of any sort - that were ever likely to run on the Great Eastern must have been precisely .......... er ...... not very many !

 

There are three possibilities:

1. Troop trains.
2. GER hire of CR carriages for peak excursion work - Newmarket races?
3. Through trains of Scottish fish-girls for seasonal work at East Anglian ports.

But in none of these case would the Grampian stock have been used! Rather, old 6-wheel carriages, I'd have thought.

[turbos]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There are three possibilities:

1. Troop trains.
2. GER hire of CR carriages for peak excursion work - Newmarket races?
3. Through trains of Scottish fish-girls for seasonal work at East Anglian ports.

But in none of these case would the Grampian stock have been used! Rather, old 6-wheel carriages, I'd have thought.

I’m not sure you both understand the point I and possibly the GER were making. The GER were maybe making a carefully worded ‘CR is a bad railway company’ statement on these wagons. Timeline wise they fit, they were expected to travel far off GER metals, though probably not as far as Scotland, but if they did they wanted them to be kept well away from the Caley’s over width carriages. Maybe they hoped other companies would follow there lead on this.

 

Brian.

[Compound2632]

Frankly I'm doubtful about the whole scenario.

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There are three possibilities:

1. Troop trains.
2. GER hire of CR carriages for peak excursion work - Newmarket races?
3. Through trains of Scottish fish-girls for seasonal work at East Anglian ports.

But in none of these case would the Grampian stock have been used! Rather, old 6-wheel carriages, I'd have thought.

I think No.3 is particularly implausible as the fish wives followed the shoals round the coast and Caley to G.E. or vice-versa would be diagonally across the island.

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

I think No.3 is particularly implausible as the fish wives followed the shoals round the coast and Caley to G.E. or vice-versa would be diagonally across the island.

 

Yes, I though as I wrote that that NBR stock might be more likely, if available. 

[Wickham Green too]

55 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, I though as I wrote that that NBR stock might be more likely, if available. 

......... with N.E.R., G.C.R. & G.N.R. in between ........

[Compound2632]

37 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

......... with N.E.R., G.C.R. & G.N.R. in between ........

 

Possibly. I'm sure I've read an informed discussion on the Scottish fish girls' seasonal migration, probably on the Castle Aching thread, but I can't just now track it down.

[JimC]

6 hours ago, turbos said:

I’m not sure you both understand the point I and possibly the GER were making. The GER were maybe making a carefully worded ‘CR is a bad railway company’ statement on these wagons.

I dunno, it seems to me that if the GER were wanting to make any such statement then putting it on two insignificant and unremarkable wagons would be about the most pointless way they could do it. Especially as equivalent text wasn't unknown on other stock for good reasons, so anyone seeing it would assume "those wagons don't fit on the Caledonian for some reason" rather than "CR is a bad company". There's got to have been something physical, even if we can't figure out what it was. I think, for lack of anything better, we have to assume that something about those wagons infringed on that couple of square inches of the CR gauge which was smaller than all the others I've found.