Standard 4MT build - Scale 7

[sej]

Hi Adrian, that's a beautifully built and detailed cab interior. By texture on the hinges, do you mean rivet detail? I've recently discovered Archer's resin rivet decals. They're great for adding rivets after spraying with primer. They stick well, seem strong enough, don't show a carrier film and you don't have to do all of that drilling and soldering bits of brass rod! I used them on the tiny grilles on the side of my "Lady Armstrong" model. I'm just about to start my MOK Armstrong kit and am very much looking forward to it. Do you have any general thoughts/advice about their rather different design methods?

Cheers

Simon

[Adrian]

Hi Adrian, that's a beautifully built and detailed cab interior. By texture on the hinges, do you mean rivet detail? I've recently discovered Archer's resin rivet decals. They're great for adding rivets after spraying with primer. They stick well, seem strong enough, don't show a carrier film and you don't have to do all of that drilling and soldering bits of brass rod! I used them on the tiny grilles on the side of my "Lady Armstrong" model. I'm just about to start my MOK Armstrong kit and am very much looking forward to it. Do you have any general thoughts/advice about their rather different design methods?

Cheers

Simon

Not sure I'd go to the extent of rivet detail, not even sure there was any. It was more just having a raised hinge line rather than the half etched groove, might try putting a little bit of wire in the half etched slot.

 

As for the kit, agreed it is a bit different but the tabs and slot have caused no problems. They are fully etched so fit fine without any fettling, it does hold the components together well whilst soldering so no complaints so far. I like the kit as it's in nickel-silver which I much prefer to brass. The only down side is there is plenty of snipping and filing flush the tabs when there are half etched overlays to go on. Still nice to see that he does provide castings where other manufacturers may have tried to get away with multiple etches.

[ozzyo]

Hello Adrian,

 

if you do down this route use some brass or N/S wire about 0.5mm Dia. I'm not that sure if you will benefit that much on the rear bulkhead, but one place that it does show is on any opening flaps on the running plate.

 

I've done it on some locos and all I did was tin a length of wire and cut it into short lengths, then zapped it in to place with the R.S.U.. Cut more than you need as you will lose some (lots).

 

For cutting the tabs back I use a diamond slitting disc, used like an angle grinder. Not to cut the tabs off but to grind them back to the face. I do feel that you get more control this way.

 

OzzyO.

[JeffP]

Glad this is starting up again, both the model and the model-making are inspirational.

[Adrian]

Hello Adrian,

 

if you do down this route use some brass or N/S wire about 0.5mm Dia. I'm not that sure if you will benefit that much on the rear bulkhead, but one place that it does show is on any opening flaps on the running plate.

 

I've done it on some locos and all I did was tin a length of wire and cut it into short lengths, then zapped it in to place with the R.S.U.. Cut more than you need as you will lose some (lots).

 

For cutting the tabs back I use a diamond slitting disc, used like an angle grinder. Not to cut the tabs off but to grind them back to the face. I do feel that you get more control this way.

Unfortunately most of my modelling has to be done after the kids have gone to bed, so I have to operate silent running! I have a rivet tool which required a hammer to tap out the rivets, the rhythmic tapping disturbed the kids so I had to modify it to be lever operated. Not sure that a slitting disc would be too popular plus the fact I'm always wary of them disintegrating and catching bits in my eye.

 

I do have a an RSU and used it for many years but last year on the recommendation of DJ Parkins and a couple of others I treated myself to an ERSA RDS80 temperature controlled soldering iron. It has been an excellent investment, once again spending a little more on quality tools has paid dividends. To the extent that the RSU has now been gathering dust, the ERSA iron is my weapon of choice and one that I would recommend to any builder. Especially when I see what people will pay for a chassis alignment jig but try soldering the chassis together with a £10 nutools iron, money spent on an ERSA unit is well worth it.

 

Anyway back to the build, as you say a little short length of wire for the hinges works wonders. If you had a close look at my Ivatt 2 tender at Wigan then you might have seen that I've done this previously, needs a bit more cleaning up but this is the effect I got.

 

So yes a few short lengths of nickel-silver wire and a bit of the clean up improves the look immensely (IMHO).

 

Once that was finished I pushed on with the cab spectacle plate which has a few half etched overlays to build up.

 

Now that's done I can concentrate on the tanks which hopefully will be the next instalment.

[JeffP]

You DID put rivet detail on the hinges, then? How was that done?

 

And can anyone tell me if CHEAP slitting discs are worth buying? They seem to be available at £2 for 36 including a mandrel....

ALWAYS wear safety glasses when using slitting discs.

[ozzyo]

Hello JeffP, Adrian,

 

I've used the "cheap" slitting discs approx £1 for 24 if I can get them, I think that most of us bust them before we have used them up. Some are better that others. The named one can be up to £6 for 24, so on that one, I think that it's you have to give them a go and if they're no good you don't get them again. A mandrel can cost about £1.50 so not a lot of a loss.

 

The diamond discs should not shatter as it's a disc of thin steel, with the diamond dust (grit) glued on. For cutting on the edge not that good as the glue can break down. But if used as a side grinder works very well, when it stops working well you just turn it over. I'm still using one that's over four years old.

 

OzzyO.

[3 link]

You DID put rivet detail on the hinges, then? How was that done?

 

 

 

Hi Jeff,

 

The rivet work is on Adrian's Ivatt 2 tender and not the 4MT.

 

ATB, Martyn.

[Adrian]

The rivet work is on Adrian's Ivatt 2 tender and not the 4MT.

Thanks for picking that up - yes the rivet detail is on the Ivatt 2 and not the 4MT. It was done by marking out and then riveting a sheet of nickel-silver. The hinge pieces were only cut out after I'd done the riveting. The trouble is that embossing rivets near the edge will deform the nickel, so for this I embossed first and cut second. On the etched kit it's already been cut and the hinges are part of the door so I didn't fancy trying to emboss rivets.

 

Sorry can't make any comments on slitting discs as I don't have any and don't use them.

 

Anyway with my new found enthusiasm I got cracking with making up the tanks. The first stage is to build up all the internal bracing bits into the support framework.

 

Before soldering up it is recommend that the cab spectacle plate and rear bunker are attached to check that everything is straight and square. It all seemed ok so the bracing was soldered up.

 

Before soldering up, the instructions mention cutting a slot at the root of the window on the spectacle plate. This is so that the side etches can slot in tightly to the tank formers. So on the spectacle plate I used a piercing saw to make the small slots circled on the photo below. If you don't do this then the side etches will not be able to follow the tank formers accurately.

 

So I used a hold-and-fold to bend the top of the tanks down, then the spec plate, rear bunker was assembled finally. The various tabs twisted, then the side etches were then put in place. To make the characteristic curve to the tanks just the bottom tabs are twisted. This is then soldered up before moving onto the next ones up, you slowly work up the tank sides until the top plate is finally in position. Once this is done you then have to remove all the tabs, 30 per side. The tabs are then filed down and the tank sides rubbed flush in preparation for the etched overlays but before we do that we need to fit a few brass casting - but that's for the next installment.

[Adrian]

As mentioned previously we now have to start digging out a few brass castings. Unlike the Fairburn tank the Std4 tanks have a pronounced radius to the bottom of the tanks, on this kit this is achieved with various brass castings so time to dig out the castings box. I dived in to root out the castings and came out with five suitable castings. On one side there was a front, middle and rear casting but on the other side I could only find two castings. I then realised that there weren't all the same length and reading the instructions properly revealed that there were indeed only 5 castings required. Three for the right hand side and only two for the left hand side.

 

So they were separated from the sprues, cleaned up and offered up in place. On one side the long middle casting was showing signs of bow so it wouldn't seat along the length of the tank. A little judicious tweaking in a vice was required to straighten the casting.

 

Towards the rear of the tanks the castings required a little trimming on the inside step, see the cutout circled. Also the the inside cab floor stretcher frame needed to be rounded off to match the contours of the casting, again circled.

 

Once that was done then the castings were soldered in place and given a thorough cleaning. The etched overlays have to seat on the ledge of these castings to form the tank so all edges had to be sharp and clear of solder.

 

Then next few stages were fairly simple. A front tank overlay fitted and the end of the tank was filed flush for another half etched overlay to be fitted later.

 

The spectacle plate had a half etched overlay to be soldered on around the windows.

 

The inside of this was given a good cleaning, the half etched overlay forms a rebate on the spectacle plate and I have a strong suspicion that this will be used to located the glass for the window at a later stage.

 

The next part in the instructions was to make up the cab doors.

 

These are neat little assemblies as the doors are made up from two half etched sides, these are half etched on the inside by the hinge line so that a length of 0.5mm wire sits snugly in the groove made from the two parts, the vertical bearer plate with the handrail has two little tabs that fold down to form the hinges. The result be a fully hinged door.

 

Unfortunately this is where the instructions miss a bit. Once the doors are assembled the instructions say "assemble to the slots in the leading door reveal". As far as I can tell this bit is missing in the instructions. Looking thorough the etches I found some bits that looked very promising but the they are not mentioned in the instructions. The framework has the plate over the cab doorway which prevents any fitting of "leading door reveals". I've sussed out what I need to do but I'll save that for the next instalment, it's not in the instructions so a few more photo's are required.

[dibateg]

Very very neat work Adrian - thank you for sharing with us, if only there was a Fairburn or Stanier tank kit of the same quality!

 

Regards

 

Tony

[JeffP]

Excellent work and photos again, Adrian.

80054 was my first "Train set" loco, 3-rail Hornby Dublo, around 1958.

[Horsetan]

...80054 was my first "Train set" loco, 3-rail Hornby Dublo, around 1958.

 

I picked up the Wrenn generation of that, in GW green! It resisted most of my attempts to hack it with a piercing saw!

[Adrian]

Second attempt for an update - still had problems uploading photo's last week but hopefully sorted now.

 

As mentioned previously there seems to be a gap in the instructions here. The next step in the instructions cover soldering the half etched side tanks on, unfortunately the photo's show the doors fitted around the cab entrance but this bit is missing from the instructions, but it's not hard to figure out what needs to be done as everything slots together neatly.

 

First thing to do is to cut the plate out from the door way, as you can see in this photo there is a half etched rebate running along the inside front of the cab doorway. This provides positive location for the end plates to be soldered on to.

 

In the prototype photos in the instruction guide it clearly shows that the windowed end plate is on the left-hand side so this is soldered into position.

 

Don't solder in the bottom slot around the floor as we still have a half etched overlay to fit. I used the door/hand rail components to locate the overlay over the slots but didn't solder them in at this point. This was so that I could file the edges flat before fitting the door.

 

Repeat on the other side with the full thickness piece followed by the half etched overlay.

 

Once everything was cleaned up and filed smooth I then fitted the doors.

[Adrian]

So finally it's onto the major task of soldering the half etched tank overlays onto the framework, this was one of those jobs that can make or break a model so I started it with a little trepidation.

 

The instructions suggest gently curving the overlay before fitting but it's such a large radius it wasn't easy. I tried the rolling pin on the leg trick but I didn't get too far. It wasn't that wide a sheet of metal and I didn't want to introduce flats or too sharp a curve, so I decided to leave it flat and introduce the bend whilst soldering up. So I started with a couple of tack solders at the bottom of the tank. This first photo shows the radius required.

 

Around the cab area there are several steps and cutouts on the etchings, to the rear of the cab door way the cutout is a location rebate for the side of the bunker which is fitted later.

 

Once I was happy that the alignment was correct, it fitted around the cab and all edges lined up I soldered the full length of the bottom of the tanks, taking care that the etch sat on top of the brass footings. Once that was done a strip of hardwood was used to hold the overlay in place whilst I soldered up along the top of the tank. That done it was then a case of attacking the tanks with a large file. The brass castings were filed flush with the overlays, draw filed to remove the worst of the file marks and then finer and finer abrasive to polish smooth. There is still a bit more cleaning up to do but the photo's are excellent to highlight what I've missed. Anyway it's finally starting to look like a loco.

 

 

 

 

A bit more cleaning up to do then I can start on fitting the various castings to finish the bunker area.

[m davies]

Superb craftmanship, thanks for sharing, I'm oft tempted to do a MOK kit, I'd prefer a gauge one when and if they ever do, the 8F would be nice , may pick one up in 7mm when its re-released either way.

[JeffP]

Pretty neat, yep.

 

That was ONE eveining's work, then?

[Adrian]

That was ONE eveining's work, then?

 

No that was probably a couple of evenings work, grabbing an hour or so when I can.

 

I really wanted to finish off the bunker area, this involves fitting and blending in another etched plate behind the cab. The half-etched rebates are designed to provide a positive location on the rear bunker plate and a recess just behind the cab.

 

The plate needed a gentle curve forming in it to match the cab, this was done with gentle finger pressure round a 2 1/2" cardboard tube, nothing too sophisticated. Again I deviated from the instructions slightly as it suggested cutting a slight notch in the top cab corner of the plate to move it up a little, but I tack soldered it in place and it seemed about right to me as it was, so I tack soldered in the top casting as well. This is one case where it just didn't quite fit, you might notice a small gap between the brass casting and the rear of the cab, unfortunately the casting is slightly too short, this is acknowledged in the instructions and it says that the gap should be at the cab end and not at the rear of the bunker.

 

Once I was happy that it looked right, it all got soldered up and I turned my attention to the bottom bunker casting. Again a little bit of fettling was required to get it to fit and once again it had a few gaps which needed filling. Up to this point I'm fairly sure a beginner would have sailed through the kit, but this bunker area needed a little bit of extra care. The bottom bunker castings were slightly bowed which due to their shape is not unexpected, so I straightened these and took care that the bottom edge aligned with the front tanks. I know it looksbowed in the photo but a steel rule along the bottom of the tanks indicates it's all straight. Nothing complicated but it just absorbed time.

 

Once that was in place and soldered up out came the scrapers, files, wet and dry etc. Here's the other side which I prepared earlier! The top of the cab roof has taken a bit of abuse with the handling, it's only a thin half etch so I'll need to straighten that out in a bit. A bit more detailing to go but overall I'm pleased with the result, I didn't expect the side of the bunker to blend in with the cab as well as it has done.

[JeffP]

Looks pretty good to me.

 

Apart from the internals, I'll bet it's not far off what it would have been like to build a real one...except it would have been welded/rivetted.

 

Have you decided what to do about the valvegear yet?

[Adrian]

Unfortunately not yet decided on the valve gear - but I will need to sort something out soon.

 

 

A little more progress to report, following on from the last instalment, I continued on the rear bunker area. This time around the cab doors. Before you can fit the large cast balance pipe between the side tanks and the rear tank the cab steps need a bit more detailing. There is a cast plate to go under the cab floor and provides a backing plate to the cab doorway. Once this is soldered in place then it can be filed flat to fit the balance pipe, also in this shot are the round inspection plates on the bottom of the bunker tank, yet more castings.

 

 

The etched plate over the doorway can then be cut away and the balance pipe fitted, making sure they are fitted the right way round, the curved bit at the front. The step in bunker and the cab step has some etched diamond plate to be fitted. The one in the cab doorway was slightly wider than the step, a careful inspection of the photo's showed that this edge is rolled over. So the plate was put in the hold and fold and the edge folded as required.

 

 

So this is the current state of play. The breather pipes have been fitted in the bunker space and some half round beading fitted around the top bunker edge. For the curved rear strip the beading was heated to a "cherry" red and left to cool, this left it soft enough to curve into the radius whilst leaving it flat as well.

 

 

[Adrian]

So for the next little instalment. Although I'd been plodding along nicely with the body work I usually prefer to get the chassis done first. I'd get that all working properly then all the cosmetic body work can fit round it. However in this case there were a couple of issues with the chassis which I needed to resolve. Rather than tackle it I carried merrily on with the bodywork instead. However with the progress made on the body I couldn't really put off the chassis any longer.

 

One problem I had was the rear bogie, I'd gone to all the trouble to sort out suspension for the main drivers and yet as supplied the rear bogie in the kit makes up as a rigid unit, the pivot has some springing but the bogie itself was rigid. The nice brass axlebox castings were a solid fitting to fit to the bogie.

 

I wasn't particularly happy with this arrangement and I could out it off no longer and decided to sort out some compensation arrangement. I did consider trying to get some springing in as well but in the end decided on keeping it simple and use plain beam compensation as the main pivot was sprung anyway. So the first part was to butcher the axleboxes so that I could fit sliding axleboxes. The cast spring in the beam was drilled and tapped 12BA in the middle to act as a pivot point and a small brass bush was turned up and fitted to the bogie etching.

 

So after a dozen lost-wax brass castings and numerous etchings I ended up with this. The 12BA screw visible is my addition for the beam pivot.

 

and with the wheels fitted it starts to look the part, although there are still a few more details to fit and the main bogie pivot as well.

 

Finally in the usual tradition, with some careless ganger leaving a sleeper discarded across the track, illustrating the beam compensation!

[N15class]

A very neat bit of work. I did something similar on a LSWR Adams radial tank, that has the compensation beam between the wheels and the bogie frames aswell. I am following this post with interest. It is all a lovely job.

[JeffP]

I might have missed it, but what stops the wheels from falling out complete with their bearings?

[Adrian]

I might have missed it, but what stops the wheels from falling out complete with their bearings?

I can't remember which one is the limiting factor, I think it's the keeper plate along the bottom of the axleboxes or if that doesn't work then it's the axles rubbing on the etched sideframes. Either way they don't fall out!

[ozzyo]

Hello Adrian, nice looking job there. It seems strange that M.O.K. did not design any form of compensation into the rear bogie. Maybe at 7'-- 7'6" W.B. they though that it was unnecessary.

 

What is that strange upright thing above the rear axle for?

 

OzzyO.