Prototypical track?

[Davexoc]

So it appears after all these years of using plastic sleepered track in the model world, the prototype has now followed suit. Network Rail is now using plastic sleepers....

Recycled plastic being used in an appropriate manner, rather than trying to clean it up for food use at great expense.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-57628901

[Wickham Green too]

Interesting they've laid baseplates for 2' gauge - 'cos that's obviously where they got the idea ! : -

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Wickham Green too
Photo reinstated

[kevinlms]

Will steam locomotives be banned from using lines relaid with these?

[arran]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Will steam locomotives be banned from using lines relaid with these?

Why ?

 

Creosoted wood also burns .

 

Regards Arran 

[Grizz]

They are fire retardant. London Underground used them some years ago at Stonebridge Park, on 202 Pnts. Brand new FB iron work and composite timbers (The term plastic sleepers was expressly forbidden). Given the fire regulations that were required to be met it was a surprise they got approval, especially as LU are extremely resistant to any sort of change in practice.

 

From a maintenance perspective they provided an excellent alternative to timber bearers. They looked like timber after a few years of road dirt coated them. Initially they were three times the cost of timber and were supplied from the US. However more companies now manufacture them and the cost of timber has increased significantly over the intervening years, as well as the ever increasing environmental price tag, so it is probably that these will see increasing use. 
 

Cutting and drilling them just requires slightly different kit. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Grizz

[Phil Bullock]

That’s great news. Exporting our waste plastic to the third world is an environmentally bankrupt policy so hopefully this might at least partially alleviate the problem.

 

i wonder if there is any Waste containment Plan when cutting/drilling Is required on site to avoid environmental contamination? 

[phil-b259]

20 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

That’s great news. Exporting our waste plastic to the third world is an environmentally bankrupt policy so hopefully this might at least partially alleviate the problem.

 

i wonder if there is any Waste containment Plan when cutting/drilling Is required on site to avoid environmental contamination? 

 

Indeed.

 

Ballast is also quite abrasive so over time its likely that tint plastic shavings will be generated.

 

(Yes the same is true of concrete and wood but said shavings are more natural than plastic as it were

[Wickham Green too]

5 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Will steam locomotives be banned from using lines relaid with these?

They're not banned on the Ffestiniog Railway !

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Indeed.

 

Ballast is also quite abrasive so over time its likely that tint plastic shavings will be generated.

 

(Yes the same is true of concrete and wood but said shavings are more natural than plastic as it were

There's a lot of things that could be said of concrete dust, but you'd go through an awful lot of other adjectives before arriving at "natural". Similarly, whilst wooden sleepers might have started as a tree, the treatment process and result isn't especially natural.

 

I realise it's a relative thing, but still...

[St. Simon]

5 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

They're not banned on the Ffestiniog Railway !

 

Indeed not, I was on the team (and actually led for the first day) that laid the first ones on the Cob!

 

The use of Plastic Sleepers has been going on for years in America, in fact the Ffestiniog Sleepers were American Sleepers Cut in Half!

 

Simon

Edited June 28, 2021 by St. Simon

[sir douglas]

has it been about 10 years now since the cob was relaid?

[St. Simon]

2 hours ago, sir douglas said:

has it been about 10 years now since the cob was relaid?

Hi,

 

Just under, it was 2014 (I think) that I was on the Cob, at most 8 years.

 

Simon

[phil-b259]

11 hours ago, Zomboid said:

There's a lot of things that could be said of concrete dust, but you'd go through an awful lot of other adjectives before arriving at "natural". Similarly, whilst wooden sleepers might have started as a tree, the treatment process and result isn't especially natural.

 

I realise it's a relative thing, but still...

 

I do get its trivial - but concrete dust is still basically the result of lumps of rock rubbing against each other which happens all the time in the natural word and they sink to the bottom of water (forming new rock if leftalone for long enough) .

 

Timber itself is completely bio-degradable and If its the timber preservative thats an issue can that not be changed?

 

Plastic on the other hand floats and as such is easily ingested by marine organisms and ultimately us!

 

That said its pretty disgraceful that the UK continues to export our rubbish and although this initiative by NR is welcome, if you want to really make things better the Government should stop pretending waste issues are things that can be left to the 'free market' and fund domestic UK waste processing plants if they run at a loss ensuring while heavily taxing plastic products which are unable to be easily recycled / reused .

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by phil-b259

[Davexoc]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Plastic on the other hand floats and as such is easily ingested by marine organisms and ultimately us!

 

That said its pretty disgraceful that the UK continues to export our rubbish and although this initiative by NR is welcome, if you want to really make things better the Government should stop pretending waste issues are things that can be left to the 'free market' and fund domestic UK waste processing plants if they run at a loss ensuring while heavily taxing plastic products which are unable to be easily recycled / reused .

 

Probably the biggest contributors to the floating particles are the fashion and automotive industries. When you consider the amount of textiles that contain some form of plastic that disintegrate slightly every time they are washed, it is easy to see where all these micro-particles come from. The fleece was a great invention for keeping us warm, but sheds thousands of particles in the wash. Most were once fizzy drinks bottles, but now end up in the waste water stream.

And as for the detritus from vehicle tyres, that goes straight into the waterways every time we get a good downpour. Whereas a good solid lump of plastic will stay mostly intact for years, whether it be a sleeper or a 25 litre drum bobbing in the ocean.

[Wickham Green too]

And if you don't convert umpteen hundred bin bags into that good solid lump of plastic where would they end up ??!?

[jim.snowdon]

On 27/06/2021 at 22:03, Davexoc said:

So it appears after all these years of using plastic sleepered track in the model world, the prototype has now followed suit. Network Rail is now using plastic sleepers....

Recycled plastic being used in an appropriate manner, rather than trying to clean it up for food use at great expense.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-57628901

It's not the first time that Network Rail (or its predecessors) have tried plastic sleepers. The first time round, if I remember correctly, there were problems with them, although I can't recall what they were.

 

Hopefully, these ones are rather better.

[Wickham Green too]

24 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

It's not the first time that Network Rail (or its predecessors) have tried plastic sleepers. The first time round, if I remember correctly, there were problems with them, although I can't recall what they were.

Couldn't get enough solvent to stick the chairs on ?

[keefer]

I believe it was getting plywood and cork tiles thick enough to nail them down to.

[Trog]

Interesting how little key there is on the sides, I assume that research has been done and those dimples work but on first thought I would have gone for a more corrugated pattern on the sides and base of the sleepers. To give as much resistance to track misalignment or buckling in hot weather as possible. 

[jim.snowdon]

Timber sleepers don't exactly have much to key them to the ballast either. As I understood it, the key qualities for maintaining CWR in alignment were the weight of the sleepers and the end area bearing against the ballast shoulder. Timber sleepers are not normally used in CWR other than as infill over bridge decks where there is insufficient depth for concrete sleepers and in isolated groups where short-ended sleepers are required to clear obstructions such as drainage pits.

 

[Ncarter2]

57 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Timber sleepers don't exactly have much to key them to the ballast either. As I understood it, the key qualities for maintaining CWR in alignment were the weight of the sleepers and the end area bearing against the ballast shoulder. Timber sleepers are not normally used in CWR other than as infill over bridge decks where there is insufficient depth for concrete sleepers and in isolated groups where short-ended sleepers are required to clear obstructions such as drainage pits.

 

Depends on where your talking. There are still vast stretches of Timber CWR across the network. It’s a mix of Hardwood and Softwood sleepers, mainly a mix of Pan 11 or similar, but also a sizeable amount of the dreaded Pan 8 still in track. 
Alignment and protection from buckling etc is a combination of things, correct CRT management and SFT in CWR or JCT in jointed. Ballast shoulders/levels play there part in the stability also. 
Timber is mainly used for weight saving purposes. Shallow depth concretes are in widespread use these days, you can even get bespoke made short ended versions. Wheel timber bridges generally have a length of timber either side and there are locations where a concrete equivalent still is not available. I was recently on a briefing in which from some time this year, possibly July, new softwood sleepers will no longer be available for ordering by NR. It will be hardwood or composite only. Personally, there are locations and certain types of track construction that just performs better with wood over concrete. 

[Ncarter2]

4 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

It's not the first time that Network Rail (or its predecessors) have tried plastic sleepers. The first time round, if I remember correctly, there were problems with them, although I can't recall what they were.

 

Hopefully, these ones are rather better.

I believe it was de-lamination issues with the early trials. Tests with the new materials has proven positive and results from real life use in other countries has also show good results, North American Railways being a user. 
The flat crossing at Newark on the ECML was recently renewed, the bearers are now composites instead of the usual hardwood.  

[Trog]

16 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

........................................ Timber sleepers are not normally used in CWR other than as infill over bridge decks where there is insufficient depth for concrete sleepers and in isolated groups where short-ended sleepers are required to clear obstructions such as drainage pits.

 

 

Literally miles of the Euston - Watford DC lines were converted from softwood BH jointed to FB CWR using M-AS1-P baseplates in the last ten years. So while wood sleepered CWR is not to be desired as it will tend to have a lower temperature (CRT) at which heat precautions need to kick in there is nothing particularly unusual about it. The important things to watch are that the rail clips are holding well, that the rail is properly stressed and that the raised ballast shoulders are maintained.

 

While using hardwood sleepers on bridge decks where the ballast depth is shallow is a necessary evil, as the hardwood sleepers are more expensive but only last half as long as concretes. There is usually no reason to use timber sleepers at catch pits as short ended concretes are normally a better solution, as you do not want to change sleeper types doubly so for shorter lived more expensive ones without a good reason. I would go so far as to say that nine times out of ten timber sleepers at catch pits are more a sign of lazy relaying contractors than anything else. 

[Ncarter2]

7 hours ago, Trog said:

 

Literally miles of the Euston - Watford DC lines were converted from softwood BH jointed to FB CWR using M-AS1-P baseplates in the last ten years. So while wood sleepered CWR is not to be desired as it will tend to have a lower temperature (CRT) at which heat precautions need to kick in there is nothing particularly unusual about it. The important things to watch are that the rail clips are holding well, that the rail is properly stressed and that the raised ballast shoulders are maintained.

 

While using hardwood sleepers on bridge decks where the ballast depth is shallow is a necessary evil, as the hardwood sleepers are more expensive but only last half as long as concretes. There is usually no reason to use timber sleepers at catch pits as short ended concretes are normally a better solution, as you do not want to change sleeper types doubly so for shorter lived more expensive ones without a good reason. I would go so far as to say that nine times out of ten timber sleepers at catch pits are more a sign of lazy relaying contractors than anything else. 

Prior to the WCML modernisation, on my old patch (Rugby) we had miles of timber CWR. The HNR’s had sections that got changed for steels, what a pain of a sleeper! 
Down in Wessex, following renewals, I have added short ended woods as a snagging item for replacement to concrete, much to their dismay. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Ncarter2
Spelling

[Trog]

1 minute ago, Ncarter2 said:

Prior to the WCML modernisation, on my old patch (Rugby) we had miles of timber CWR. The HNR’s had sections that got changed for steels, what a pain of a sleeper! 

 

Unusual, I thought that WCRM were keener on replacing F40 and 5F40 sleepers as it was easier than relaying old 1960's track with mixed sleeper lengths and old dirty ballast.

 

As for the steels on the HNR if you are thinking of the lengths on the Up Fast/New either side of Castle Station that were previously 97 1/2 lb bullhead jointed, you got off lightly.

 

As Jarvis wanted to relay them as steel sleepered jointed track (a really bad idea as you can not pack the joints effectively without a tamper) until I had my boss stamp on them. Even then they did a section in serviceable 60'-0" rails off the Settle and Carlisle (I know this as one rail had a chalk mark on it saying load 4 Mallastang) and claimed it was as good as CWR as they had used tight jointed fishplates that have no rail gap. I was very popular with them when I pointed out that tight jointed plates had the letters TJ embossed on them and that the plates they had used did not, and to get some welders out there pronto.