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hayfield
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4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

its one thing to lose an item to a dodgy buyer and end up out of pocket, its a whole other ball game to lose your house, future mortgage and damaged credit scores because of late payments due to ebay deductions.

 

That's a fair point and one that had crossed my mind as well.  A fraudulent buyer will likely ensure that their purchase is funded via their credit card and as such can raise a chargeback at virtually any point in the future.  If that happens to be a large purchase, then the knowledge that eBay can essentially tap into your bank account at any point and draw funds to cover a chargeback, is somewhat unsettling. 

 

The only way around this really is to open a separate bank account to handle eBay funds alone, and leave only a small amount in that account at any one time, with the bulk of the funds transferred to your regular bank account that has no connection with eBay whatsoever. 

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11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’m just not prepared to give a third party unrestricted unlimited access to my bank account without my per-instance agreement… if you withdraw your cash, find the buyer was dodgy and the transaction reversed, you could find your mortgage payments bouncing due to lack of a trivial amount, or excessive banking fees…

 

With Paypal, the payment was reversed, and you had to resolve it, but it was your resolution.. be it adding funds or using your credit card… not a random swipe of cash from your bank account at ebays time of choosing.


Further, ebay isnt a bank, its unregulated. You might wonder what its doing with your cash for those 2-3 days .. is it playing the stock market ? Is it currency trading ?.. youve no idea.

 

You know at some point, there will be a dodgy ebay employee….and the rest will be for the news headlines…

 

To me theres no protections.. with Paypal, they are a bank, regulated by a government, and mandated to give policies to handle issues like those above, 


 

 

I am not singling you out but replying to your posts as I do to others

 

You show a complete lack of knowledge of what is going on. eBay payments are arriving in bank accounts within 24 hours, not days, the system has changed stop please spreading inaccurate information

 

eBay I have found in the past with their customer resolution provided the seller has followed their rules backs them up

 

eBay never have taken any money from my account without my permission

 

Please tell us about your actual experiences rather than your own assumptions

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1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

eBay I have found in the past with their customer resolution provided the seller has followed their rules backs them up

 

eBay never have taken any money from my account without my permission

 

Please tell us about your actual experiences rather than your own assumptions

Past experience is irrelevant as its a new system. Ive been vocal on ebay horror stories on here, just use the search function to find them… 4464 Bittern to Australia was a good example.

 

my feedback rating is 4000+, (1 neutral in 1 year) so i’m honestly not an ebay beginner, ive 23 years on the site, 1998, one of their oldest members… I think I know how to buy and how to sell.

 

ive chosen not to use the new system as I just see new risk, on top of old risk… my choice, i’m sorry if you don't like it, but i’m not a business and I dont need to use their site, since April, Ive purposely avoided buying on ebay too… I use it for reference and set myself the challenge to buy elsewhere.

 

The straw that broke the camels back wasn't a train, but a swimming pool, nor was it even a sale, but a purchase it arrived and was delivered, to someone else's address, not even in my town, but 40 miles away, to the same street name and house number… The seller refused to do anything, blaming the courier, ebay refused to do anything as it was delivered. I used both the none delivery and the goods not as recieved dispute ebay processes without luck.
I had the proof of wrong delivery, even the couriers delivery photographs of the other house…to an ebay guy in the philipines it meant nothing… £180 up a wall… I eventually had to get a mate with a van and drive round the other side of the M25 and get it myself… when I did.. I found it was correctly addressed to the wrong house, the seller hadn't used my full address on ebay… its that simple to by pass all protection processes on ebay.

 

It shows ebay protection just isnt fallible or as reliable as you think… its just an API, with an automated algorithm, giving data to a $1 an hour person 6500 miles away in Makati City.. a city to which the astonished ebay handler was amazed I had been to… Unfortunately for him, all he had was a delivery address, a tracking number, a photograph that matched the date stamp and an address that looked close enough, in writing and on a map, in all but the postcode, and so which didn't trigger an IT responses.

 

Do you feel comfortable, knowing IT can be wrong, and if escalated to a human, 6500 miles away, that decision maker has 24/7 access to move money from your bank account, knowing he isn't subject to banking laws of any country, but is purely guided by decisions on a screen, that may or may not be correct ?

 

To me, ebay is moving on towards business sellers, and making its traditional core of private buyers/sellers too restrictive and difficult to use… A phoenix may rise from the ashes, it certainly did in the Whisky trade when ebay all but threw the market off its site in 2014. The Whisky Exchange recognised it and set up its own auction platform, https://whisky.auction since then its grown to be a hugely successful trading platform… For legal reasons, they have to gather and distribute, but theres no such restriction on model railways, which to me means it could be even more streamline.

The model railway market is more than big enough to hold its own, but whoever leads it needs to have that ebay following to make it happen.

 

its not if, its when.

 

Opening a new account is a good idea, but I really shouldn't have to open a new bank account, to sell old tat I dont want, but it does demonstrate the risk as it is.

 

Until then i’ll find another route to sell what I don't want, ive at least 50 locos to clear out, but as new stuff has been so slow arriving this year their isnt much rush in me to dispose either.

Edited by adb968008
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7 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

That's a fair point and one that had crossed my mind as well.  A fraudulent buyer will likely ensure that their purchase is funded via their credit card and as such can raise a chargeback at virtually any point in the future.  If that happens to be a large purchase, then the knowledge that eBay can essentially tap into your bank account at any point and draw funds to cover a chargeback, is somewhat unsettling. 

 

The only way around this really is to open a separate bank account to handle eBay funds alone, and leave only a small amount in that account at any one time, with the bulk of the funds transferred to your regular bank account that has no connection with eBay whatsoever. 

 

This is getting a bit silly, if we revere did anything in case something might happen, we would never do anything. Then dint forget eBay used to own PayPal. Whilst I am no expert I believe anybody handling others money has to be regulated, Finally there are probably more dodgy sellers on eBay than dodgy buyers

 

In 20 years of mainly buying but also selling, on the few occasions there has been an issue with what I have sold, they were resolved without eBay getting involved, except I think for 1 occasion when eBay stood up for me. If something is lost or broken in transit its my responsibility, I then claim from the carrier

 

On the (3?) occasions I have had to get eBay involved, eBay had taken time to hear from both parties, so there was plenty of warning of a possible charge back

 

The fact is you are more likely to have a financial problem using one of the more dubious carriers than getting a charge back from eBay, does that stop some from using these carriers  ?

 

The only time I have had the odd frozen payment was with PayPal after it was sold by eBay, both times due to the payment method of the buyer. eBay in the past and now have not done this to me. Funds now are arriving within 24 hours, I sold something yesterday it will be interesting to see if payments are made on working days

 

 

 

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No transaction process is entirely risk free but the 'risks' on ebay are not unlimited - 

1) they are operating under direct debit rules so the bank is liable to return any unauthorised debits

2) your maximum liability is going to be for the amount sold - not your house, your car etc.

3) Chargebacks can happen up to 120 days after the transaction. You will not find your bank account emptied years after your sale

It's a personal choice whether you sign up but some of the 'risks' definitely border on scaremongering.

 

It's like any risk in life. If you only sell for cold hard cash with no comeback you'll never lose the cash you took - but you'll get a lot less over the years for your stuff than by accepting some risk. 

 

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6 hours ago, hayfield said:

This is getting a bit silly...

 

3 hours ago, andyman7 said:

No transaction process is entirely risk free but the 'risks' on ebay are not unlimited - 

 

3) Chargebacks can happen up to 120 days after the transaction. You will not find your bank account emptied years after your sale

It's a personal choice whether you sign up but some of the 'risks' definitely border on scaremongering.

 

It's like any risk in life. If you only sell for cold hard cash with no comeback you'll never lose the cash you took - but you'll get a lot less over the years for your stuff than by accepting some risk. 

 

 

With all due respect, it is anything but "silly".  It only sounds "silly" because it likely hasn't happened to you?  Of course, there has to be an accepted risk in accepting online payments and naturally these bad experiences aren't the norm, but does that mean that we should take no measures whatsoever to protect ourselves against them should they occur? 

 

To illustrate, I sold £300 worth of goods to an overseas buyer: despatched, delivered and signed-for by the name on the delivery address.  All fine, or so I thought.  Several months later the 'buyer' decided to contact his credit card company stating that the purchase was an "unauthorized transaction", and that he supposedly had no idea how it had occurred. 

 

So, forget eBay rules, forget PayPal rules, if a buyer has funded a purchase via his/her credit card, then all that buyer has to do is report a transaction as "unauthorized" and bingo, credit card protection will step in and refund his/her funds.  In the meantime, PayPal kindly informed me that the transaction had been reversed and that the funds would be refunded to the buyer.  Suffice to say that I had sufficient evidence to back up the shipment and delivery of the goods, however, even despite this the buyer still received his refund, because that is how credit card protection works in the instance of a so-called "unauthorized transaction".  I then had to pursue PayPal and fight it out in order to state my case.  Despite having evidence of shipment and delivery, PayPal informed me that if the transaction is reported by the card owner as "unauthorized", then all proof of delivery means very little if the so-called 'buyer' supposedly did not 'authorize' the payment. 

 

Fortunately, PayPal concluded that I was not in error and I wasn't stung for the reimbursement - however, it was not clear-cut by any means and was also an incredibly time-consuming and stressful affair to deal with. 

 

I think the point that @adb968008 is stating is that for example, if that £300 in the above case were to be deducted from one's main bank account when one least expects it - as is the case with most chargebacks - then to my ear that doesn't sound quite such a "silly" potential occurrence to protect oneself against.  Many of us run on a tight budget from one month to the next, and to have perhaps larger sums unexpectedly deducted from your main account - incredibly rare though that event may be - could be crippling if you happen to have a mortgage payment to settle that week.  To my ear, if anything, it sounds rather more foolhardy to not want to protect oneself against such an event. 

 

Furthermore, without being alarmist about it all, it isn't as though it's difficult to set up a sub-bank account for such a purpose.  If some feel that this is "silly", then so-be-it.  More foolish to be caught unawares, I would argue.  But then each to his own, I suppose...

 

Al

Edited by YesTor
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Al

 

Firstly I no longer sell abroad (too troublesome now, though I have had no issues in the past)

 

Secondly I have said many times I only sell model railway items, its a niche market. I usually only deal with kits and associated bits, dealing with these folks is a pleasure they are a great bunch of both buyers and sellers, I do take special care with sales over £25, either recorded or special delivery. As said I send now only to the UK, unless the buyer is willing to deal with eBay's international shipping. I also only use the Royal Mail as if anything goes wrong its an easy claim method

 

There is no way on earth I would sell anything else either hi tech and or expensive on eBay and as I say sending abroad is a faff now

 

I do note you did not loose out, which proves the point I was making, if you adhere to eBay's rules and make your case, you have eBay's protection, which you seemingly got. As ADB968008 said all he was selling tat !!! so I guess the value is not there. So the £300 is not applicable

 

My initial moan was for people hanging on too goods after eBay's instruction to send still have not seen any real defence and as the attempted charge back was months after, waiting a few days did not prevent this

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41 minutes ago, hayfield said:

As ADB968008 said all he was selling tat !!! so I guess the value is not there. So the £300 is not applicable.

All model railways are tat to me, when I no longer want them.

Some tat is worth more than other tat.

 

Admittedly most (like everyone) is probably under £25, for bits, accessories, scrap, spares, wagons etc..

 

tbh i’m comfortable in this range as if lost its not really any loss, so I dont bother to send recorded either.. £2.95, proof of postage and job done.


When its above £50.. then it starts getting more complicated and a bit more expensive.

 

I used to sell a varying amount of locos between £10-£600, I dont think ive sold anything higher than that, but any decent or rare one these days is £200-£400 range, Ive sold a fair few here.
 

I know when I sent the £600 APT-E, I videoed the whole thing, from testing to wrapping and the label.. and photographed it in the post office… No issue from the buyer, feedback was positive just a day or two later.

 

I’m getting to the stage, with so many locos in my collection (several hundred) , that I need to downsize, based either on unfamiliarity, duplication or simply increasing too much in value.

 

But if you don't want it… its tat.. taking up space… but if its worth money, then common sense says you should keep an eye out, whether buying or selling.

 

 

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6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

To me, ebay is moving on towards business sellers, and making its traditional core of private buyers/sellers too restrictive and difficult to use…

 

 

Yup - and its deliberate!

 

E-bay has long wanted to ditch small private sellers - it can make more money for its shareholders by acting as a market place for business users (i.e. the model Amazon has been using for ages)

 

A classic example of what happens when a successful start up gets noticed by the financial vultures in the capitalist system where maximising shareholder value rides roughshod over the original ideas / ethos of the enterprise.

 

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 A phoenix may rise from the ashes, it certainly did in the Whisky trade when ebay all but threw the market off its site in 2014.

 

 

Yes and no.

 

If any new startup is seen as a big enough threat then you can be sure e-bay will find a way of either taking it over or driving it out of business. On the other hand if the startup is seen as not being a threat to e-bays profitability or costing too much to administer then it will be left alone by the cooperate types / venture capitalists.

 

Model Railways are a nieche hobby (certainly in terms of financial spend compared to say Golf or Fishing) so a new model railway trading site would most likely be left alone. However if it started to expand into toys more generally (and was successful) - particularly new non model railway stuff then you can bet it wouldn't be left alone.

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7 hours ago, hayfield said:

Then dint forget eBay used to own PayPal. Whilst I am no expert I believe anybody handling others money has to be regulated,

I recall that for many years Paypal was not a regulated institution although it was effectively accepting deposits from the public.  Having worked on a major bank insolvency, I was most unhappy that money transfer systems were not subject to regulation at the time.

However Paypal is now a FCA regulated body, so you can complain to the Financial Ombudsman should the need arise.  From memory I think it was the EU who forced this change on the UK.  

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Don't sell abroad is the key way of reducing risk in any transaction involving credit card payments, especially selling outside of the EU. Learnt that the hard way when I had a mail order business. Not exclusive to Ebay or Paypal, a foreign credit card company will just reverse the transaction.

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I've sold lots on ebay and a few things annoy me with the current setup...

 

One is free listing which doesnt turn out to be free, as Ive been stung by a BIY 50p per auction upgrade. Firstly I didn't ask for it (often hidden on mobile listing) and secondly the listing stated no cost. I'm having fun with their customer services to get this refunded on principal.

 

I'm still seeing 3 days for payments to clear not 24 hours. I miss PayPal as it was a nice hobby fund and nice being seperate from the main account ;)

 

I miss the old simple turbo lister software... stuff is more cumbersome to list these days.

 

I know why they do it but charging a % on postage still irritates especially when they recommend postage costs being the exact amount rather than including the %.

 

I'm now selling alot less that I used to. But still use Ebay as alternatives aren't that great.

 

 

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8 hours ago, hayfield said:

My initial moan was for people hanging on too goods after eBay's instruction to send still have not seen any real defence and as the attempted charge back was months after, waiting a few days did not prevent this

 

Fair comment, I hadn't paid so much attention to this aspect, and agree that that is perhaps a different debate altogether.   ;)

 

My point really revolved around the perceived issues surrounding eBay being directly linked to the seller's bank account: 

  

8 hours ago, hayfield said:

I do note you did not loose out, which proves the point I was making, if you adhere to eBay's rules and make your case, you have eBay's protection, which you seemingly got.

 

For sure, I did "seemingly receive [eBay's protection]" in this instance, however eBay's support was not received without a fight.  Sure, if a buyer claims non-receipt of goods, or receipt of defective goods etc and the seller can prove the case in his favour, then all well and good.  However, it was pretty clear that this particular buyer had deliberately set out to deceive and obtain goods fraudulently.  He knew that raising a dispute via eBay or PayPal would likely prove fruitless, so instead opted to bypass 'the system' and raise a chargeback directly with his credit card company.  Reversal of charges due to "unauthorized activity" on an account is not so clear-cut in terms of protection and nine times out of ten it will be the seller that is left exposed in such an event.

 

Having also worked with mail order for over fifteen years, and having witnessed all manner of elaborate attempts at deception, I am evermore cautious, as perhaps @ruggedpeak sums up pretty well:

 

6 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

Don't sell abroad is the key way of reducing risk in any transaction involving credit card payments, especially selling outside of the EU. Learnt that the hard way when I had a mail order business. Not exclusive to Ebay or Paypal, a foreign credit card company will just reverse the transaction.

 

 

Anyway, to round off...  there are no right or wrong ways of doing things here, and as you correctly implied earlier @hayfield, there is indeed risk in everything that we do, and it basically boils down to how much risk we (as individuals) are prepared to absorb. 

 

In this scenario, my feelings are that if as a seller you are using eBay for substantial sales and/or the linked bank account is also used for essential day-to-day expenses, then it feels to be wise practise to implement what is in fact the most basic of safeguards, ie. a parallel/independent bank account for handling those funds.  Okay, this step alone will not remove any ultimate liability that may land at the seller's door, but what it will do is protect your immediate funds in the short-term and in essence buy some time while you resolve any issues with eBay, PayPal, the credit card provider, or whoever... 

 

Of course, there will be many that choose to work on having blind faith in 'the system' - and that may indeed work just fine for the majority of the time - and genuinely, good luck to those people. 

 

On the other hand, some of us prefer to "dot the i's and cross the t's", so to speak.  Some might label this scaremongering.  I'd say simply, common sense.

 

Best
Al

 

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16 minutes ago, YesTor said:

 

In this scenario, my feelings are that if as a seller you are using eBay for substantial sales and/or the linked bank account is also used for essential day-to-day expenses, then it feels to be common sense to implement what is in fact the most basic of safeguards, ie. a parallel/independent bank account for handling those funds.  Okay, this step alone will not remove any ultimate liability that may land at the seller's door, but what it will do is protect your immediate funds in the short-term and in essence buy some time while you resolve any issues with eBay, PayPal, the credit card provider, or whoever... 

 

Best
Al

 

 

Al

 

I was assuming I was talking to non business sellers, if you are using eBay for substantial sales its a different ball game and again not what we were discussing.

 

I am happy to both buy and sell as a non business, as I have said my interests lie with kit built locos and parts needed to build and update them. I have found like minded modellers seem to be on the whole honest and pleasant to deal with. But like you if I feel I am being taken for a ride I will pursue it as far as I can

 

On the other hand I have noticed others having issues with high value goods both model railway and non model railway. Also some time ago I worked alongside someone who bragged about being suspended several times by eBay selling iffy car parts  (he just opened up new accounts). I am not interested in selling other things like old phones, cameras or computers. I neither buy or sell these items on eBay

 

I also keep away from the RTR retail side on eBay, holds no interest to me. I have learnt my subject (though still learning) and enjoy finding items difficult to obtain elsewhere. I don't think I could ever sell any surplus items if it were not for eBay. I still believe if you follow the rules  you lessen the chances of something going wrong. I will one day get taken for a ride, on balance I still will be well in credit

 

You are giving good advice to someone who is either running a business or disposing of an estate. But that's not what most of us do, I just get annoyed about some who are upset with eBay and take it out on their customers.

 

I have sold some items yesterday (Saturday) and today all but one item are packed and ready to post tomorrow, at the moment funds are pending transfer, no doubt they will be in my account tomorrow, but even though its a bank holiday I will take them (my post office is open tomorrow) to the Post Office, Hopefully it will be quieter than a normal Monday.  

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Back to the main point, I am getting used to the new selling site, its a bit of a pain as most of the information available I just don't need. But I will concede on balance what was the "SOLD" area (now called "ORDERS") is now much better, plus the Payments area is extremely useful

 

Back to my other rant of people holding on to orders for a few days, first thing this morning items paid on both Saturday & Sunday were paid (or at least sent), seemingly eBay pay on working days, which is fine with me

 

Secondly I looked at something I sold under the old £1 Max selling fees + PayPal fees verses the new system (Not forgetting PayPal was in the past part of eBay

 

Old system Item sold inc postage £76 all fees  eBay £1  PayPal  £2.88

                      Item sold inc postage £10 all fees  eBay £1  PayPal  £0.59

 

New system Item sold inc postage £81  all fees under the 80% discount £2.37

                        Item sold inc postage £12.50 all fees  eBay £0.62

 

Massive savings on fees, rather than moan about under 24 hour wait for a payment a massive reduction in sales costs. I wish my bank would pay interest like this !!!

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