Manchester Piccadilly OHLE question.

[phil-b259]

8 minutes ago, 62613 said:

Trains to Marple, Hayfield, New Mills, and via High Lane to Macclesfield, etc., also used those platforms. Trains to New Mills and Rose Hill Marple still do, as well as TPE "expresses"

None of which were powered electrically.

 

In theory the DC electric service could probably have coped with just 2 platforms, particularly after the Sheffield services stopped running but that doesn’t give much leaway if a train or the infrastructure has a problem and blocks a platform so having 4 platforms available (even if they we’re mostly used by diesels) makes sense operationally.

[PenrithBeacon]

I can't remember ever seeing a dc electric train away from the GC platforms, did it ever occur? 

[caradoc]

14 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I did think of control as well but surely they don't make mistakes, after all they are in control.

 

 

Control certainly are (occasionally) responsible for operational incidents, although the dewirement at Waverley was not one of my 'achievements'..... (And sometimes we even accepted the blame too).

[Grovenor]

Quote

can't remember ever seeing a dc electric train away from the GC platforms, did it ever occur?

No, how could it when only the GC platforms were electrified at DC.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Grovenor

[Derek 19B]

LNER /GC platforms Numbered ABC before rebuilding to Piccadilly. After rebuild platforms numbered 1-3 .

 

Woodhead part 1 by E.M.Johnson has a photo page 10 of a express on platform 4from Crewe with a Bo Bo 25kV electric at the front. So 3 DC energised platforms.

 

Derek 19b

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Derek 19B
changed incorrect platform No 10 to 4

[62613]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

None of which were powered electrically.

 

In theory the DC electric service could probably have coped with just 2 platforms, particularly after the Sheffield services stopped running but that doesn’t give much leaway if a train or the infrastructure has a problem and blocks a platform so having 4 platforms available (even if they we’re mostly used by diesels) makes sense operationally.

The three platforms now numbered 1-3, originally A,B & C, as mentioned by Derek 19B, were originally for the exclusive use of the Midland and M.S & L. The line from Hyde  Junction to at least Romiley, was the original Midland route into Manchester (Sheffield & Midland Joint), until the line from Romiley to Ashburys was built.

 

Remember that the Woodhead scheme was a  LNER project (in my opinion, to eliminate the dreadful conditions in the Eastbound Woodhead Tunnel in steam days), and they used all three platforms. There were also more grandiose plans to extend to Central and down the CLC to Liverpool, at least.

[Reorte]

2 hours ago, 62613 said:

Trains to Marple, Hayfield, New Mills, and via High Lane to Macclesfield, etc., also used those platforms. Trains to New Mills and Rose Hill Marple still do, as well as TPE "expresses"

Don't all the current TPE ones go via Stockport and Hazel Grove? That'll involve crossing right across the face of the station.

[62613]

2 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Don't all the current TPE ones go via Stockport and Hazel Grove? That'll involve crossing right across the face of the station.

Certainly the "South Pennine" ones do (from Sheffield, etc.), but there are some North Pennine ones as well (from over Standedge)

[woodenhead]

11 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Don't all the current TPE ones go via Stockport and Hazel Grove? That'll involve crossing right across the face of the station.

Some route via Marple as well

7 minutes ago, 62613 said:

Certainly the "South Pennine" ones do (from Sheffield, etc.), but there are some North Pennine ones as well (from over Standedge)

Trans Pennine use any platform, if you look at Real Time trains you can see a spread across the platforms including the through platforms 13/14 if they have originated via Victoria from the east on the way to the Airport.

[Reorte]

25 minutes ago, 62613 said:

Certainly the "South Pennine" ones do (from Sheffield, etc.), but there are some North Pennine ones as well (from over Standedge)

Ah, forgot about those, only remember the ones that I see going past regularly

12 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Some route via Marple as well

That's interesting, I hadn't realised anything other than the locals and some freight went that way.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Reorte

[PenrithBeacon]

2 hours ago, Grovenor said:

No, how could it when only the GC platforms were electrified at DC.

Ok, but I have the impression that this thread is about mixing dc & ac? Perhaps I'm misreading. 

AFAIK only the three ex GCR platforms were  wired for dc until the GC route was converted to ac. 

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Ok, but I have the impression that this thread is about mixing dc & ac? Perhaps I'm misreading. 

AFAIK only the three ex GCR platforms were  wired for dc until the GC route was converted to ac. 

The three ex GC platforms were only ever wired for DC as they were swept away when the station was rebuilt replaced with Platforms 1-6 of which 1-4 were wired DC and later converted to AC.

 

Don't know how this thread got into mixing AC and DC, it was mused by one poster and has grown into some sort of theory that the remaining posts have been debunking.

 

As London Rd platforms 1-3 got wired DC, when the station was rebuilt for the AC lines to London, platforms 1-4 were wired DC and the rest AC until 1983/4 when the four DC platforms became AC too.

[woodenhead]

14 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

That's interesting, I hadn't realised anything other than the locals and some freight went that way.

I am guessing it's route knowledge for diversions, they don't stop and it's three services a day

[Derek 19B]

Woodhead part 1 by E.M.Johnson has a photo page 10 of a express on platform 4 from Crewe with a Bo Bo 25kV electric at the front.

So only platforms 1-3 DC energised .

 

Derek 19b

[GoingUnderground]

1 hour ago, Derek 19B said:

Woodhead part 1 by E.M.Johnson has a photo page 10 of a express on platform 4 from Crewe with a Bo Bo 25kV electric at the front.

So only platforms 1-3 DC energised .

 

Derek 19b

I don't think it's that simple.

 

Alan Whitehouse "An Illustrated History of the Woodhead Route"  includes the electrification track plans, and on page 56, is the plan for London Road. This shows the track for platforms 1-3 as to be being electrified. But the track layout has a stabling road and a loco release road, neither of which were to be electrified, between the tracks serving platforms 1 and 2. Platform 3 was a bay road with platforms both sides. This would be in line with the A,B,C platform designation used by the GC and later the LNER.

 

But it does not match the later layout seen in "Woodhead (Part 3) The Electric Railway" by E.M. Johnson where the photo on page 38 captioned "Manchester Piccadilly, 1970s:  In Pre-Class 506 days ....M59602M.... waits at Platform 4 with a late morning departure for Hadfield.......". In this picture the loco release and stabling roads are gone and the track serving platform 3 no longer has a platform on both sides of the track.

 

I don't know the relevant history of London Road/Piccadilly but it would seem on the basis of these two sources that at some point after the electrification plan was drawn up the GC/LNER track layout was changed. Would that have been part of the modernisation for the arrival of the WCML AC electrification? The loco release road appears to have been removed which allowed a new platform to be built to serve the the stabling road which was now the track for platform 2. The opposite face of the new platform became platform 3 with new track laid to serve it, and what was platform 3 became platform 4, with all 4 platforms being electrified at 1,500V DC. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by GoingUnderground

[The Stationmaster]

The April 1960 resignalling did not include any release crossovers or release lines on the ex GC side of the station - just 4 platform roads with no connections at all between them from the platform ends to the stop blocks.

[GoingUnderground]

5 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I can't remember ever seeing a dc electric train away from the GC platforms, did it ever occur? 

Yes, Multiple Units terminating on the through roads which were part of the LMS's 1,500V DC electrification of the Altringham line. These never connected with the GC/LNER catenary even though through running would have been possible as they were both built to the Weir Report standard 1,500V DC spec. This was cut back to Oxford Road so that the through roads could be converted to 25kV AC.

Edited July 5, 2021 by GoingUnderground

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, Derek 19B said:

Woodhead part 1 by E.M.Johnson has a photo page 10 of a express on platform 4 from Crewe with a Bo Bo 25kV electric at the front.

So only platforms 1-3 DC energised .

 

Derek 19b

it's on platform 5, I'm looking at the picture now, the EM1 is on platform 1 then there are three more platform faces before the AC express.

[woodenhead]

39 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

I don't think it's that simple.

 

Alan Whitehouse "An Illustrated History of the Woodhead Route"  includes the electrification track plans, and on page 56, is the plan for London Road. This shows the track for platforms 1-3 as to be being electrified. But the track layout has a stabling road and a loco release road, neither of which were to be electrified, between the tracks serving platforms 1 and 2. Platform 3 was a bay road with platforms both sides. This would be in line with the A,B,C platform designation used by the GC and later the LNER.

 

But it does not match the later layout seen in "Woodhead (Part 3) The Electric Railway" by E.M. Johnson where the photo on page 38 captioned "Manchester Piccadilly, 1970s:  In Pre-Class 506 days ....M59602M.... waits at Platform 4 with a late morning departure for Hadfield.......". In this picture the loco release and stabling roads are gone and the track serving platform 3 no longer has a platform on both sides of the track.

 

I don't know the relevant history of London Road/Piccadilly but it would seem on the basis of these two sources that at some point after the electrification plan was drawn up the GC/LNER track layout was changed. Would that have been part of the modernisation for the arrival of the WCML AC electrification? The loco release road appears to have been removed which allowed a new platform to be built to serve the the stabling road which was now the track for platform 2. The opposite face of the new platform became platform 3 with new track laid to serve it, and what was platform 3 became platform 4, with all 4 platforms being electrified at 1,500V DC. 

The station was rebuilt at platform level for the AC upgrade, this included the GC side which went from an awkward 3 platform arrangement that had been squeezed in during the GC period with a release road and stabling platform to a simple four track/platform affair.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 05/07/2021 at 16:52, woodenhead said:

The station was rebuilt at platform level for the AC upgrade, this included the GC side which went from an awkward 3 platform arrangement that had been squeezed in during the GC period with a release road and stabling platform to a simple four track/platform affair.

This shows the state at the commissioning of London Road Power Box in 1960 with the rebuilding of platforms  1-4 done.

ManLR_1960-400g.pdf

 

There was no running move from the Down Fast to Platforms 1-4. The only way in from the LNW lines was a shunt from the Up Fast. The only connection with running moves was at Ardwick, then only Down East to Down Fast or Up Fast to Up East

Edited April 10, 2022 by TheSignalEngineer
File restored

[Johann Marsbar]

One using platform 4, 37 years ago this evening - 5th July 1984...

 

 

...and an earlier one from 1978...

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Johann Marsbar
added photo

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, GoingUnderground said:

Yes, Multiple Units terminating on the through roads which were part of the LMS's 1,500V DC electrification of the Altringham line. These never connected with the GC/LNER catenary even though through running would have been possible as they were both built to the Weir Report standard 1,500V DC spec. This was cut back to Oxford Road so that the through roads could be converted to 25kV AC.

I thought the conversation was to do with the mainline station. heyho.

Edited July 5, 2021 by PenrithBeacon

[jim.snowdon]

On 04/07/2021 at 15:38, The Stationmaster said:

So the pan will still go over-height and hit something - probably the gantry (unless 25kv catenary intervenes first).  In such a short distance immediately the contact wire rises the pan will start to go over-height and it will extend to or near its mechanical maximum before auto lower cuts in.  And that most likely means it will foul the structure and that is normally precisely what happens - and the pan hits something.

I wouldn't assume that the DC pantographs actually had any form of overheight detection, not least because the DC wire could be very high in places, close to the maximum reach of those pantographs. There were locations on the MSW where staff were permitted to go on top of tenders under live overhead for the purpose of using water cranes.

 

[GoingUnderground]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I thought the conversation was to do with the mainline station. heyho.

As it is physically impossible for a single standard 1,500V DC loco work on track where the catenary is energised at 25kV AC without severe, if not terminal damage, your question didn't make any sense, at least not to me. Dual system locos and EMUs can do this trick but the EM1s, EM2s and Class 506s weren't dual system.

 

Incidentally, John Hooper in "EM1 & EM2 An illustrated Historical Review..." states that in 1967 one EM1, 26014, was taken from Reddish to Soho Depot in Birmingham for conversion to AC/DC working by GEC Witton for trials hauling freight on the WCML in place of AL6/Class 86 locos which were giving trouble at the time.

 

So I thought you were asking if any other parts of the London Road/Piccadily complex had catenary energised at 1,500V DC.

Apologies if my reply has caused offence.

Edited July 5, 2021 by GoingUnderground

[russ p]

28 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

As it is physically impossible for a single standard 1,500V DC loco work on track where the catenary is energised at 25kV AC without severe, if not terminal damage, your question didn't make any sense, at least not to me. Dual system locos and EMUs can do this trick but the EM1s, EM2s and Class 506s weren't dual system.

 

Incidentally, John Hooper in "EM1 & EM2 An illustrated Historical Review..." states that in 1967 one EM1, 26014, was taken from Reddish to Soho Depot in Birmingham for conversion to AC/DC working by GEC Witton for trials hauling freight on the WCML in place of AL6/Class 86 locos which were giving trouble at the time.

 

So I thought you were asking if any other parts of the London Road/Piccadily complex had catenary energised at 1,500V DC.

Apologies if my reply has caused offence.

 

I take it this conversion didn't actually take place? I wouldn't have thought there was enough room inside an EM1 for a rectifier and transformer