The return of exhibitions - a further poll

[Phil Parker]

6 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

As an exhibitor, is wearing a face covering comfortable? Possibly not.

 

I was an exhibitor and wore a mask all day - it was fine. No worse then shop staff who have to do the same nowadays.

 

6 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

The show was quiet in the afternoon.

We wondered if the show made a profit or loss. We suspect it was a loss.

 

Shows are always quieter in the afternoon, although I didn't notice much difference.

 

As for the profit/loss, I think they expected a loss, but whatever happened, the society would have to pay for the hall, so it was a case of reducing this.

 

Personally, I felt less at risk than a visit to a shop. The roof is very high and one of the larger doors was always open for air flow. It never felt too crowded and most of the visitors looked old enough to be double-jabbed.

 

When we were setting up, all the doors were open and so it was freezing in the gale, but that would have shifted an Covid. That and no-one being within 5 metres of me allowed a mask-free railway build. Most people wore them for breakdown.

 

One issue with the mask - it deters regular drinking. I was more dehydrated after this show than any I remember.

[Martin S-C]

6 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

As an exhibitor, is wearing a face covering comfortable? Possibly not.

Its an entirely personal and subjective issue. For me its easily do-able.

I wore one for the set-up session on Friday which was from 3:00pm to about 6:00pm and was fine, but then I'm a person who's happy following rules for the good of the majority. I find the blue medical masks are so light I quickly forget I'm wearing one. I lowered it only 2-3 times for a sip of water. My three friends who operated Chalfont all day Saturday said they had no issues with wearing masks all day but with three operators that allowed a 2 on 1 off operator schedule so there was ample opportunity to go outside, de-mask and have a break. But masking is an entirely personal thing. Some can't stand it, others like me have no issues. If you exhibit, perhaps make the extra effort to have plenty of helpers so people can take more frequent breaks if needed. Just one more logistical issue to bear in mind when exhibiting or trading.

[Chris M]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

My mother-in-law who is a retired medical professional would disagree.  I used your argument with her the other day and her reply was the greatest threat now is long-Covid which can have debilitating affects for many months, impacting both the individual and society / the economy. Given that 1 in 20 people who have had Covid get the long form of it, that means of those 26,000 odd cases yesterday, 1,300 will suffer for an extended period. Multiply that by a few days and exponentially grow it as is happening, and we have another major issue.

 

I had not considered that and didn't argue back to her...

Roy

Very valid point. We know that if you have very mild symptoms you can get long Covid. How bad and how many is only just being understood. I’ve always said that many viruses can leave problems for months or even years.

[Oldddudders]

Sadly there still seems to be medical arrogance about Long-Covid, despite evidence of its existence and dreadful effect on the sufferer. A teenager clearly suffering from it was told by her GP that youngsters don't suffer from it. This appears to be part of a widespread denial among GPs that the condition exists at all. I wonder if the same group also doubt the need for HRT among some post-menopausal women.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57666620

[Derekl]

My problem with masks is that I wear glasses and they steam up so I can't see. I have fiddled around to try and sort it out without much success. Trying to read the newspaper in the train is a nuisance. It means taking them off regularly in an effort to wipe, but that is not always effective. Any constructive ideas welcome.

The relation to the topic is that mask wearing might discourage me from attending exhibitions, although I fully appreciate that it might be a necessity.

[Roy Langridge]

7 minutes ago, Derekl said:

My problem with masks is that I wear glasses and they steam up so I can't see. I have fiddled around to try and sort it out without much success. Trying to read the newspaper in the train is a nuisance. It means taking them off regularly in an effort to wipe, but that is not always effective. Any constructive ideas welcome.

The relation to the topic is that mask wearing might discourage me from attending exhibitions, although I fully appreciate that it might be a necessity.

Anti-misting spray works well.

Roy

[andyman7]

14 hours ago, blueeighties said:

Personally I can't see exhibitions returning this year, 26k cases today. Cases are rising at an alarming rate yet again.

Hundreds of thousands of people are being tested now each week - three times as much as even in January. The 'symptoms' are now headache, sneezing, sore throat if you get them at all. hardly anyone is ending up in hospital, and far fewer are dying of this than of all the other things that aren't being diagnosed or treated properly because of fear of Covid.

 

Back in 2019, would we have cancelled Warley because it was a bad 'flu season? I know it will take time but with the messaging having terrified a good part of the population that Covid is a death warrant whilst vaccinations and treatments were developed, we really do now have to get used to the actual, real risk and stop thinking in terms of infections. The sooner we move away from positive testing figures and daily Covid death rates to weekly stats telling us how many people have died in total of any cause (and what of) the sooner may be we can get this back in proportion.
 

Of course it is personal choice whether one travel or where one visits. But the public prescribing of who we can visit or have in our homes, where we can go and what we can do is at best an extremely temporary measure to be done in only the most extreme cases for the shortest possible period. I find it more scary that so many people seem happy to let experts, Government and media (yes, Prof Ferguson, Matt Hancock, Dominic Cummings, Kay Burley etc) tell us by law what we must not do on pain of fines rather than seeking good advice that lets us make sound judgements.

We've done what we needed to get to where we are but please let's not feed the totalitarian beast by suggesting that we are waiting to be locked down again.

[andyman7]

42 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Sadly there still seems to be medical arrogance about Long-Covid, despite evidence of its existence and dreadful effect on the sufferer. A teenager clearly suffering from it was told by her GP that youngsters don't suffer from it. This appears to be part of a widespread denial among GPs that the condition exists at all. I wonder if the same group also doubt the need for HRT among some post-menopausal women.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57666620

The risk is that ignorance of Long Covid is conflated with the heuristic ingrained behaviour programmed into people to deal with the flash infection stage. Long Covid treatments and long term prognosis need to be developed and matured. But the idea that any form of lockdown or restriction on free association is a long term solution to managing the risk of Long Covid does not make sense, because the additional health threats the suppression of normal societal interaction creates is out of proportion to the issue. 

The medical response to Long Covid seems to suffer from similar issues to that faced by ME sufferers as well as the menopause, and that is the real issue to address here.

Edited July 1, 2021 by andyman7

[Roy Langridge]

Just now, andyman7 said:

I find it more scary that so many people seem happy to let experts, Government and media (yes, Prof Ferguson, Matt Hancock, Dominic Cummings, Kay Burley etc) tell us by law what we must not do on pain of fines rather than seeking good advice that lets us make sound judgements.

 

You seem to be crediting a lot of the population with intelligence that they sadly lack.

 

As an example (and leaving Covid aside) I went to an smaller exhibition whilst on crutches after dislocating my peroneal tendon (not recommended). All was fine apart from the one idiot that decided to lean a shed load of his weight on me whilst I was standing at a trade stand (so he could reach across me), pushing me over and putting all my weight on my non-weight bearing leg. When it was pointed out by somebody else what he had done, he shrugged and basically said so what (although not so politely) and said it was all my fault for being in his way.

 

Despite all that you seem to complain about, I lost my Dad to Covid. Many people make judgement calls which are based on a risk assessment to themselves and not what risk their actions place upon others. It was frighteningly quick and this despite his having had his first vaccine and being in what was considered a highly protected environment. Somebody didn't do that they should have done.

Roy

[t-b-g]

I went onto the survey but found that there were a few questions I just could not answer.

 

I genuinely don't know when I would be happy to start attending shows again and I don't know what measures I would want in place.

 

I had three ways I would attend shows, either as a visitor, an exhibitor with a layout or as a demonstrator. Very often, particularly as a demonstrator, sitting still in one place with people often standing directly in front of me and breathing all over me, I would return home with a cough, a sore throat or a dodgy stomach, which I put down to "a bug" being passed on to me at the show.

 

I was OK with that as it was always something very minor that I got over in a day or so.

 

None of it was potentially life threatening or life changing.

 

I remember the last show at Doncaster in Feb. last year when this was just starting and one or two people were already wearing masks. I thought that it only takes one person here to have it and with people travelling from all over the country, it could be everywhere in a week.

 

To me, going to a show knowing that a proportion of the people would be expected to catch Covid and that a small percentage of those might end up in hospital isn't something I would be comfortable with. Go to enough shows and it becomes "your turn". 

 

With cases rising and experts predicting a 3rd wave, I don't want to be one of the "small number" who end up with serious problems.

 

If cases were falling to a very low level and it was clear that vaccinations were beating the illness to the point where the risk was tiny, no worse than catching other potentially serious illnesses, then that may change but as things are now, I won't be rushing to a show any time soon. My family and my health matter more than a few hours pleasure from an exhibition.

[andyman7]

43 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

You seem to be crediting a lot of the population with intelligence that they sadly lack.

 

As an example (and leaving Covid aside) I went to an smaller exhibition whilst on crutches after dislocating my peroneal tendon (not recommended). All was fine apart from the one idiot that decided to lean a shed load of his weight on me whilst I was standing at a trade stand (so he could reach across me), pushing me over and putting all my weight on my non-weight bearing leg. When it was pointed out by somebody else what he had done, he shrugged and basically said so what (although not so politely) and said it was all my fault for being in his way.

 

Despite all that you seem to complain about, I lost my Dad to Covid. Many people make judgement calls which are based on a risk assessment to themselves and not what risk their actions place upon others. It was frighteningly quick and this despite his having had his first vaccine and being in what was considered a highly protected environment. Somebody didn't do that they should have done.

Roy

Very true, but there will always be conflicts. We let people drive cars even though some are idiots and will kill other people with them. We allow alcohol to be consumed despite the many and varies tragic consequences of irresponsible use. I'm very sorry to hear about your Dad, obviously I don't know the specific circumstances but that is a tragic outcome. All I am saying is going forward, we cannot give Covid a disproportionate attention compared to these other risks 

[Reorte]

3 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Its an entirely personal and subjective issue. For me its easily do-able.

I wore one for the set-up session on Friday which was from 3:00pm to about 6:00pm and was fine, but then I'm a person who's happy following rules for the good of the majority. I find the blue medical masks are so light I quickly forget I'm wearing one. I lowered it only 2-3 times for a sip of water. My three friends who operated Chalfont all day Saturday said they had no issues with wearing masks all day but with three operators that allowed a 2 on 1 off operator schedule so there was ample opportunity to go outside, de-mask and have a break. But masking is an entirely personal thing. Some can't stand it, others like me have no issues. If you exhibit, perhaps make the extra effort to have plenty of helpers so people can take more frequent breaks if needed. Just one more logistical issue to bear in mind when exhibiting or trading.

They had us wearing them all day in the office for a while. Whilst not unbearable it wasn't particularly pleasant either; occasionally I just had to take it off and breathe freely for a few seconds as it started to feel stifling and suffocating (this with the paper medical masks). Not often, not even every day, but a requirement to wear one would put me off visiting somewhere even though it's not enough hassle to make me try to avoid going to, say, the shops as often as usual.

[Bomag]

The problem with deciding on what measures will still need to be used is that everybody's sees risk differently.  I won't go anywhere which requires a mask as it makes me feel so ill, but as a safety practitioner I would avoid the same places as they indicate a high risk location and the AfNOR spec mask most people use degrades in performance over time (30 min). However, two measures which I would be happy with, (extra space between layouts / wider walk ways and a one way system) were criticised by others even though would would make exhibitions more pleasant irrespective of COVID. 

 

Similarly people evaluate what's in the news based on there own concerns, so Andrew Marr getting Covid is a big issue for some, but given the reported pills he is on (data may not be 100% accurate) the transferability of his experience to others may be limited.

 

If we are going to have more freedom from July then hopefully there will be evidence by September if things are working and gives confidence to go to exhibitions (and train trips).

 

 

   

 

 

[woodenhead]

I understand the thoughts on one way systems, but I learnt early on in the lockdowns that this doesn't function well in a supermarket where items are neatly grouped let alone the more random distribution of a railway exhibition.  Imagine the start of the exhibition and everyone piles on to layout number 1, then number 2 etc - it would mean layout number 10 is empty until all those initial people in have viewed the items down the line leading to a crush.  Being able to wander randomly around a larger spaced exhibition will give a more even distribution, you can bet those most concerned about their health but prepared to visit will head for the empty spaces.

 

Add to that my Pathological Demand Avoidance which means I will argue with anyone who tells me what to do and when to do it, and a one way system is a recipe for disaster.

[Mike_Walker]

When I attend an exhibition I tend to have a quick look round first to see what's on offer then return to those layouts/exhibitors that I find of most interest for an in-depth study.  Having one way systems or time slots would simply ruin it for me.

 

I'm rapidly approaching the Big 70, have had both jabs long ago and am just itching to break free of all these rules and regulations and live a normal life again.

 

Just hoping that comes about in 18 days time!

 

PS  Graham:  I'll be at your community centre exhibition on 30/10 - nothing will keep me away!!

[MRDBLUE17]

Hi Andy,

 

Interesting  survey results to see how people feel etc. Personally I am looking forward to being able to go to an exhibition and will be attending the Furness Model Railway show in October as an exhibitor. It’s in my old school so feel it’s a big enough building to spread out, windows to open etc. It’s a case of balance and behaving with common sense, masks/hygiene etc but no reason why we shouldn’t be able to enjoy it as we always did. 

 

Thanks

Mark

[dagrizz]

5 hours ago, woodenhead said:

one way system is a recipe for disaster.

 

I challenge anyone to devise a one way system at Warley. I've spent the last 20+ years trying to devise a logical route so I can see everything but the cunning randomness of the exhibits has beaten me every time.

 

Graham

[Nearholmer]

Pondering this further in an idle moment .........

 

Several people have made the very sound  point that "risk decisions are a very individual thing", and I think part of the problem with all this is that none of us actually has much idea of what the probability of catching the bug at a "made as safe as it can be using precautions acceptable to the majority" MR exhibition might be, and we only have a vague notion of what the consequences might be for anyone who does catch the bug(*), so we are "flying at least half blind" in trying to make risk decisions.

 

In that "half blind" state, each of us has to fall back on our imperfect individual understanding of probability and consequence, and our personal general level of "risk appetite" - is each of us a naturally cautious, risk-averse, individual, or a naturally brave, risk-accepting, individual?

 

I believe that the various "pilot" events overseen/monitored by government scientists were supposed to have give some guide as to probabilities, but the results seem inconclusive, and I'm not sure any of them much resembled a MR exhibition anyway.

 

The only way to find out for sure is probably to hold an exhibition with whatever precautions emerge from this debate, log all attendees, and see how many get how ill as a result. Run an experiment, with us as guinea-pigs, in short.

 

(*) We know that the consequences are less likely to be very severe if we have been fully vaccinated, but unless I'm not paying attention we don't have a really clear picture of what "Covid short of it killing you or putting you in hospital" actually consists of for various age groups. Its not like colds, or the flu, or tripping over on the stairs, where we all have direct or close experience to guide us.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Nearholmer

[bbishop]

13 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

My mother-in-law who is a retired medical professional would disagree.  I used your argument with her the other day and her reply was the greatest threat now is long-Covid which can have debilitating affects for many months, impacting both the individual and society / the economy. Given that 1 in 20 people who have had Covid get the long form of it, that means of those 26,000 odd cases yesterday, 1,300 will suffer for an extended period. Multiply that by a few days and exponentially grow it as is happening, and we have another major issue.

 

I had not considered that and didn't argue back to her...

Roy

I am a volunteer within the health service  and post Covid is having a huge impact on people.  There has been a significant increase in the number of cardiac arrests and if the patient has had Covid, it is very unlikely for there to be a positive outcome.  

 

So even though I am double jabbed, I am still taking every precaution. 

 

Bill

[Bomag]

3 hours ago, dagrizz said:

 

I challenge anyone to devise a one way system at Warley. I've spent the last 20+ years trying to devise a logical route so I can see everything but the cunning randomness of the exhibits has beaten me every time.

 

Graham

 

I haven't been but from the floor plan I have seen up one isle, down the next. Left one cross way and right the next. I think some may be thinking Ikea snakes and ladders when mentioning 'one way systems'.  The idea is to have everybody less than 2m apart facing the same way and not breathing water vapour into each other faces

[RJS1977]

7 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

I haven't been but from the floor plan I have seen up one isle, down the next. Left one cross way and right the next. I think some may be thinking Ikea snakes and ladders when mentioning 'one way systems'.  The idea is to have everybody less than 2m apart facing the same way and not breathing water vapour into each other faces

 

The trouble at Warley is that not all blocks are the same size. 

 

In the words of the Goons "Not impossible, but we would have to box exceeding... c-c-clever."

[E100]

This survey is a great idea. 

 

Hoping to attend Warley for the first time in a decade but maybe that's somewhat naive given the current climate.

 

Even as a young 29 year old. I'd certainly be wanting to take a fresh FFP3 mask as much for others as myself along with glasses desisting spray. I don't fancy long covid even though I'm unlikely to end up in hospital. There does seem to be very high effectiveness for them that could prevent a super spreader event https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57636360 

 

I wonder if large exhibitions could provide a compulsory high quality mask FFP3 and glasses de-misting spray (because I assume well over 50% have glasses and even more only to see the detail on models). Obviously, it would add a couple of £ to entrance. Medical exemptions to masks requiring some form of evidence (far too much abuse of this currently IMO).

 

With that in place events could probably take place even in a covid spike.

[RJS1977]

With regards to mask wearing, there are clearly some people who can wear one for hours, and there are others who are unable to owing to medical exemptions. Personally I fall in the middle - I tested out one style of mask at home and was able to wear it for 3 hours (with a quick break for water) but so far the longest I've managed in a real situation is about 45 minutes and I was only too glad to tear it off at the end. So I would be unlikely to attend a medium-large show if mask-wearing was a requirement, especially if I had to wear one to get there and back as well, although I might manage a face shield.

 

However I would have no objection to showing a vaccine card (the letter in RM recently saying that nobody should have to show a vaccine card even if it meant the vulnerable had to stay home forever made my blood boil!), and/or a temperature test on entry, or a one-way system. Likewise, no objection to a booked entry slot.

 

With regards to distancing from manned exhibits, it obviously depends on the scale of the exhibit (a Gauge 1 layout is more easily seen from a distance than a T gauge one!) but generally I think provided the 2m distance is measured from the back of the layout (assuming the layout is operated from the rear), then it isn't really an issue for me as it's only a foot or so further away than the barriers at some shows. John de Frayssinet's layouts had a big gap between layout and barrier so that he could access the layout in his mobility scooter - indeed some layouts are possibly better seen from further away in order to enable the whole scene to be taken in. On the other hand, Copenhagen Fields is so deep (and the operators hidden away behind the giant backscene) that no distancing between layout and visitors would be needed.

 

Last year I drew up a plan for a 'distanced' 2021 Kenavon show (which of course was cancelled) - it's a venue that lends itself well to a one-way system (with a cut-off in the main hall) and by having unmanned displays in the centre (reducing the width of the island), I was able to allow distancing between operators and visitors. 

 

 

 

 

[Les1952]

17 hours ago, woodenhead said:

....... a one way system is a recipe for disaster.

 

The one-way system we have devised for South Notts works as follows.

 

After entering everyone turns right into the main hall.  (the turn to the left is closed so that coridoor can be used by people returning from upstairs)

 

Flow round the outside of the main hall will be clockwise but there is also a centre aisle which shortens the route if repeating.  This also allows us to separate the food queue from the browsing punters.

 

The stage will have an "up" stairway and a "down" stairway with one direction of travel across it.  the main flow in front of the stage will be in the opposite direction to the flow on the stage.

The balcony will be reached UP the stairs in the main hall (that we normally don't use as I'm not happy with people going down them- they are a bit steep.  There is a level change ion the balcony in any case so travel will be away from the stairs along the lower level and back along the higher.  Return from the balcony will be by the main stairs back to the entrance.

Exit from the show will be via the fire exit at the far end of the stage.

 

This makes the one-way system a series of loops which punters can go round in (almost) any order and as many times as they like.  It just makes it a lot less likely that people will bump into someone going the opposite way.

 

Hopefully the schematic will give the idea.

 

 

There is a wooden partition between the food queue and the exhibits under the balcony as you head towards the kitchen.  

 

Hope this helps how a one-way system can work.

 

Les

 

As an afterthought we generated a QR code for the clubroom so will generate another for the show and display it (in mulpiple for ease) at the entrance, with a request for folks with the app top please zap it.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Les1952

[Dragonboy]

Some really good observations coming out here but at the end of the day everyone will need to make the call as they see fit at the time.

 

Despite being fully jabbed I’m more reluctant to go to an exhibition today than I was on Monday because of the comments about the rise in cases allegedly attributable to the England V Scotland football spectators.

 

The question of venue is a little more tricky. Biggest space Warley but there can be crushes by the club only purchasing part of the hall. Whole hall and basic individual safety precautions then it’s a possibility however the cost of Warley for me is frankly becoming way out of my reach. 
 

Over the years I’ve attended exhibitions in Milton Keynes at schools or similar. I’m guessing these would be a no no for me as they are usually far to cramped and maybe these venues might no longer be in the mix anyway.

 

This would leave East of England Showground TINGS & Stoke Mandeville as the 3 venues I’d probably feel most comfortable to visit as they are usually well spaced out.

 

The other venue I went to in 2019 was MK Stadium and I am on the fence there as it was a bit crosses for me even being a Sunday attendee.