The return of exhibitions - a further poll

[RJS1977]

I would have to say that so far the majority of journeys on public transport I've done so far have been much quieter than I would have expected pre-pandemic times (carriage to myself travelling into Paddington from Reading at 8:30am on a Friday morning.....) and those that haven't been haven't really been at a level I would feel uncomfortable with. That said, so far I haven't tried a Cross Country to Birmingham....

 

I'm not sure necessarily how comfortable I'd have felt at GETS based on Andy's image, although had I gone I would almost certainly have worn a face shield. That said, it is good to see a decent level of attendance.

[Nearholmer]

Interesting picture AY, confirming my expectations, and in my mind validating my decision to steer clear today, despite living very nearby (apologies for the rain folks), and tips me away from attending tomorrow, which I had half in mind.

 

When you look at vaccination rates by age, and if you assume that railway modellers roughly follow the norms, there will be a lot of not-vaccinated people there, some very likely asymptomatic, or mildly symptomatic, carriers, so unless the rate of air change is phenomenally high, there will be a fair few bugs, Covid included, wafting about the place.

 

Up to the individual whether they feel comfortable with the level of risk that presents - personally, I don’t. 
 

I caught an evil cold last time I attended that event, and a “super-evil cold” is not what I want now.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

having maintained caution and precaution, I ask myself if I would feel comfortable with the behaviours evident?

Pertinent questions and ones which each of us must answer for ourselves.  

 

My personal comfort threshold may be influenced by having worked more or less normally throughout the pandemic and among the great British public.  Dr. SWMBO is still very reluctant to go out, go inside anywhere else and to use public transport having been largely confined to the flat for the duration working from home as a vulnerable individual.  

 

I have attended a couple of modest hobby-related events already with her approval subject to taking the usual care and precautions but she isn't happy to go out into society in any way yet.

 

I wear a mask where it remains a legal requirement (aboard TfL services in my case), if I am popping into a smaller shop with less space, but not normally in a supermarket, and on a few occasions if my train to or from work is particularly busy otherwise the official employer's exemption badge suffices.  I continue to display that at all times whilst working too just in case anyone else should feel uncomfortable. I have always been medically exempted from mandatory face-coverings but manage to wear them for short periods when necessary.   

 

I would not be uncomfortable in a large exhibition hall with a sizeable number of people and neither would I be uncomfortable in a smaller venue with a suitably smaller number.  I am also ready to return to exhibiting and demonstrating as I have done in recent years though would endeavour to maintain a metre of separation between myself and others rather than have them peering up close and in-my-face at things.  If required to do so by the organiser I would wear the low-level shield as I used at work for a year rather than a close-fitting mask if cover was needed for an extended period of time.  

 

In my book we are learning to live with this virus whilst also getting back towards our previous normality.  I respect the fact that others may have very differing opinions.  

Edited October 2, 2021 by Gwiwer

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

The months have moved on and I'm looking from the sidelines at this weekend's GETS event in Milton Keynes as a barometer for how people think or feel.

 

 

 

Mask wearing seems low.

Distancing seems minimal.

Barriers, or not, seem to be positioned as traditional.

 

The points are not raised to criticise the event but to observe behaviour. From a personal perspective, having maintained caution and precaution, I ask myself if I would feel comfortable with the behaviours evident?

 

 

We had the French Railways Society annual rendezvous and exhibtion towards the end of August. It was quite well attended but almost everyone wore a mask (except to eat) and there was no real crowding. 

 

There were a few more people in the hall at times than when I took this image (we had a programme of "slide" shows) but I never felt uncomfortable. Based on your photo,  I don't think I'd have felt at all comfortable at the GETS event.

That reflects my own attitude to the risks and others will of course have their own. In the end it comes to a balance based on an, as far as possible informed, personal risk assessment. I note from Zoe today that numbers of infections have stopped falling and are now rising again. 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Pacific231G

[Markwj]

I attended a toy fair in Buxton last weekend with little mask wearing and little social distancing, being double jabbed with no underlying health issues it didn’t bother me. My thought process being that everyone has their own personal responsibility and will do their own personal risk assessment before attending and if it was worth their risk or not.

We have to return to normal and learn to live with the virus. If rates rise and we get new guidance obviously I will follow it. Looking at Andy’s pic that environment wouldn’t worry me.

[PMP]

A friend is attending and mentioned it’s busy and estimated 2/3rds not wearing masks. Encouraging to see the attendance but I’d have thought more would have worn masks.

[Legend]

Up in Scotland it’s still a requirement to wear a mask in public places, and I have to say I’m happy at that . I’m surprised there aren’t more mask wearers in that picture . Even though it’s not a legal requirement I would have thought more people would have been exercising caution . There is still a virus out there and from yesterday’s news it still seems to be killing 130 daily on average .  It’s not just about protection for you it’s about giving protection to exhibitors and traders 
 

I am hoping Model Rail Scotland goes ahead in February but also that it remains a requirement to wear a mask in public places in Scotland , otherwise I may have to reconsider a visit 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Legend

[Kris]

From the Great Model Trains exhibition thread I'm just going to put here what I said there as this a better thread. 

 

From my personal point of view this photo makes it look uncomfortably crowded with minimal mask wearing. Going forward I see this as a real challenge for exhibition managers, one that I don't see an immediate resolution to. 

 

The photo put up by @Pacific231G shows an environment that I would be more comfortable in but I recognise that this would not provide the profit (traders and those putting on the exhibition) or experience that many are looking for. 

[woodenhead]

@AY Mod What were/are the traders and exhibitors doing - are they mainly with or without masks.

 

Ultimately, it will come to this, if there is a marked difference between what the traders/exhibitors want and what the visitors are prepared to do, then there may be issues in future larger exhibitions.

 

But if both visitors, exhibitors and traders are all similarly minded then they have set the level for the exhibitions going forward.

[Liam]

I’ve just got in from GETS and personally I wasn’t very put off by the practices people chose to follow (or not follow). I’m 19 and double jabbed, I used hand sanitiser plenty of times and tried to ensure that with the exception of the people I was visiting the show with that I wasn’t rubbing shoulders with anyone else for more than a few moments, but with masks, if the people around you aren’t wearing one then you are no better off wearing one yourself. I’ve got some lateral flow tests with me and I’ll do a couple in the week to be certain that I haven’t picked the virus up at the show.
 

As for the organisation of the show, the aisles seemed quite wide but inevitably there was the odd case of someone blocking them and causing congestion. At 15:00 the main hall began to empty out and you could certainly feel that it had become cooler and more spacious; not that I found the hall stuffy but one of the balconies definitely was at around 12:30/13:00. 

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, Markwj said:

My thought process being that everyone has their own personal responsibility and will do their own personal risk assessment

I’m sure that’s true, but what nags at the back of my mind is whether that risk assessment properly includes the risk of catching the bug and passing it on to someone else, who might be much more vulnerable. 
 

It’s an unusual thing to have to do, to factor-in secondary risk to others when making a decision where all the positives of, say, attending and doing without a mask, accrue to the individual, and possibly most of the negatives of catching the bug accrue to some other random person that they accidentally breath on in the queue in Tesco’s a week later while they are a barely symptomatic carrier.

[Barry O]

We have made our aisles at our show wider (10' rather than 9'), will provide sanitizer and ask people to use it as well as wearing a mask. As the layouts will be further back from the barrier than in the past hopefully the layout operators will be Ok.

 

The Hall etc will be cooler than in the past as we have been asked to keep some of the Fire doors open to allow air to circulate (also helped by the sports hall extractor fans.. did GETS have similar air flow ideas?

 

Noticeable that some of the more mature visitors are wearing a mast . Just the same on public transport in Leeds...

 

Baz

Edited October 2, 2021 by Barry O

[bradfordbuffer]

Just watched new Junction show preamble live feed....Mr new Junction coughing and snivelling....apologies for having a cold! Hope he doesn't have a coughing fit in hall at lunch time on Saturday....he will be as welcome as a fart in a space suit!!....and will be publicly whipped by 4 lengths of second hand code 100 peco track.....personally up to him to attend with a cold to a show with close proximity to others...but others may not be do kind!

Funny how during lockdown1.0 every one was so nice to each other...now worse no compassion just selfish acts it's all about them self's hence the polar opposite views in this forum 

 how many football supporters go with a cold and sing and shout over each other...and go to pub....and no one will say nothing...

 

Good to see gets dipping toe in icey water where others dear not to go!

 

Having helped a friend for many years at shows from setting up to van ride home many times went to work on the Monday with a cold or cough...most shows autumn to spring...in doors...unwashed people and too much booze...and knackered ...think covid will just become one of the winter bugs

This madness will be hear for years to come! The more you isolate the further the devide between yourself and society 

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, Barry O said:

some of the more mature visitors are wearing a mast

Was that a jib at the age group or merely a typo   

[2ManySpams]

4 hours ago, AY Mod said:

The months have moved on and I'm looking from the sidelines at this weekend's GETS event in Milton Keynes as a barometer for how people think or feel.

 

From https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/161359-great-electric-train-show-2021/&do=findComment&comment=4593122 this image is enlightening.

 

 

Obviously I can't say if that's high or low in attendance terms but there are a number of people to make observations upon.

 

Mask wearing seems low.

Distancing seems minimal.

Barriers, or not, seem to be positioned as traditional.

 

The points are not raised to criticise the event but to observe behaviour. From a personal perspective, having maintained caution and precaution, I ask myself if I would feel comfortable with the behaviours evident?

 

 

@AY Mod My own photos of GETS today from the 2nd floor balcony taken at 13:20. 

 

 

 

 

It was busier and more packed at 11am when I arrived and I must admit I was having second thoughts about attending due to the number of people not wearing masks, not using the freely available hand sanitiser and not keeping their distance. It was about 50:50 on traders wearing masks, less for exhibitors. 

 

It was however good to get out and stock up on solvent! My view overall is that at some stage we will have to get out and about, we can't hide forever. I was happy to go having been double jabbed, and taking my own precautions including mask, hand sanitiser and staying away from those coughing and spluttering.

[Andy Hayter]

4 hours ago, Markwj said:

 

We have to return to normal and learn to live with the virus. If rates rise and we get new guidance obviously I will follow it. Looking at Andy’s pic that environment wouldn’t worry me.

 

 

Sorry Mark, I am not picking on your post in particular and I am sure there are many that agree with that sentiment but I personally find that view incredible regarding an organisation that in a different sphere did not need foreign freight drivers, did not need army back up and claimed there was no problem in getting fuel.  [Sorry a bit close to politics]. The track record is too late to come to a solution.  So when you are told to change the chances are it will already be too late.

 

As one coming from an environment where mask wearing remains de rigour - all shops, public buildings and even outdoor markets - I find what is shown and reported  really dreadful.   Total disregard for the well being of the person next to you.  Getting back to normal does not need to mean stuffing your neighbour - but many seem to think it does it seems.  I am back to normal and sod the rest.

 

 

If I attended a UK exhibition (and I long to), I would have had to already endure an international flight.

 

I don't think I will be booking a BA ticket any time soon, let alone attending any UK exhibition.

 

I am probably in a minority of one, but then we here are not killing 50.000 people per year still.  Too many but not that many.

 

 

[Colin_McLeod]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

But if both visitors, exhibitors and traders are all similarly minded then they have set the level for the exhibitions going forward.

 

Perhaps it would be prudent to first see how many Covid cases were picked up at such events.  Though in practice such information will probably not become available.

[Nearholmer]

Impossible to establish with certainty among the c35 000 cases each day, I would imagine, and impossible squared for secondary cases. There might be the odd case where the individual has been living a very sequestered existence, has treated themselves to this one outing, and then gets it, but most people will have been to shops, or on a bus or train, or to work, or college, or a pub/cafe/restaurant, so will find it hard to pin exactly where they caught it.

 

Anyway, let’s hope nobody catches it there. Although that would probably be impossible to establish with certainty too - unless a register was taken and given to ‘track and trace’.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Perhaps it would be prudent to first see how many Covid cases were picked up at such events.

 

58 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Impossible to establish with certainty among the c35 000 cases each day,

 

The most recent comments from Government sources suggest that far and away the greatest number of those infected and infecting is 10 - 14 year olds.  Too young to be routinely vaccinated yet freely associating in schools which is probably where the infection is occurring.  That age group is generally less severely affected by being infected.  The same figures show that infection among age groups from 15 up is stable or falling which, among other things, implies that those children are not infecting their own parents to a significant extent.  

 

Source : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58763845

 

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Perhaps it would be prudent to first see how many Covid cases were picked up at such events.  Though in practice such information will probably not become available.

A few weeks ago I attended a club house open day at a local model railway club. It was invitation only and apart from some usual precautions* every visitor was asked to give contact details in case anyone caught covid. *Hand sanitizer, facemasks and tea served in paper cups.

[Nearholmer]

53 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

The most recent comments from Government sources suggest that far and away the greatest number of those infected and infecting is 10 - 14 year olds.

 

If you look at Prof Spector's video this week, he shows a graph of case rates by age group. 10-19yo are certainly the age group with highest rate of infection, and growing quickest, but that isnt the same as saying that they are "the greatest number of those infected". 

 

The video is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIrIqH62FYk and the graph at c2:30.

 

You need to do a quick mental guesstimate of numbers of people in each age band to get some idea of proportions of cases in each, and on that basis I'd say that 10-19yo probably represent about a quarter to a fifth of cases currently, rather than "far and away the greatest number".

 

53 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

implies that those children are not infecting their own parents to a significant extent.  

 

 

The figures imply exactly the opposite. You will see that the 30-39yo, and 40-49yo groups, which probably contain most of the parents of the above, are rising. The rise lags that among the above, which is exactly what you'd expect if they are "bringing it home from school/college".

 

Possibly the group most likely to pass-on the virus in an exhibition-type setting right now are those 30-49yo, because: they have quite high infection rates; they make-up a fair proportion of attendees; are in many cases young enough that the probability of them being asymptomatic (as opposed to symptomatic) carriers is quite high; because their uptake of vaccination is lower than for older age groups (for example1:3 people 30-34yo are not vaccinated, 1:5 people 45-49yo are not vaccinated, while only c1:20 people >70yo are not vaccinated); and, because, if their "personal risk assessment" thinks only about themselves, and omits the people they might pass it on to, they could fairly conclude that there isn't much point wearing a mask, because they are unlikely to get seriously ill if they do catch it.

 

Which isn't to seek to make pariahs of all railway modellers 30-49yo (that would be a lot of enemies to make!), but it could well be a plea for people of that age to think very carefully about the old and otherwise vulnerable that they might accidentally infect, and to "mask-up" for their sake, if not for their own.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Nearholmer

[AY Mod]

46 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

infection among age groups from 15 up is stable or falling which, among other things, implies that those children are not infecting their own parents to a significant extent.  

 

The heat Maps show the 35-50 age groups getting higher lagging behind the 5-19 age groups by about 2 weeks so there's some indications to the contrary. 

[bradfordbuffer]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

 

If you look at Prof Spector's video this week, he shows a graph of case rates by age group. 10-19yo are certainly the age group with highest rate of infection, and growing quickest, but that isnt the same as saying that they are "the greatest number of those infected". 

 

The video is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIrIqH62FYk and the graph at c2:30.

 

You need to do a quick mental guesstimate of numbers of people in each age band to get some idea of proportions of cases in each, and on that basis I'd say that 10-19yo probably represent about a quarter to a fifth of cases currently, rather than "far and away the greatest number".

 

 

 

The figures imply exactly the opposite. You will see that the 30-39yo, and 40-49yo groups, which probably contain most of the parents of the above, are rising. The rise lags that among the above, which is exactly what you'd expect if they are "bringing it home from school/college".

 

Possibly the group most likely to pass-on the virus in an exhibition-type setting right now are those 30-49yo, because: they have quite high infection rates; they make-up a fair proportion of attendees; are in many cases young enough that the probability of them being asymptomatic (as opposed to symptomatic) carriers is quite high; because their uptake of vaccination is lower than for older age groups (for example1:3 people 30-34yo are not vaccinated, 1:5 people 45-49yo are not vaccinated, while only c1:20 people >70yo are not vaccinated); and, because, if their "personal risk assessment" thinks only about themselves, and omits the people they might pass it on to, they could fairly conclude that there isn't much point wearing a mask, because they are unlikely to get seriously ill if they do catch it.

 

Which isn't to seek to make pariahs of all railway modellers 30-49yo (that would be a lot of enemies to make!), but it could well be a plea for people of that age to think very carefully about the old and otherwise vulnerable that they might accidentally infect, and to "mask-up" for their sake, if not for their own.

 

 

So you will not be attending DEMU show any time soon?     dirty diesel modelers....

[Michael Hodgson]

The level of crowding at this show appears to be a lot less than seems to have been the pre-covid norm at  Warley, Ally Pally or York.

I would say it's about the same as the busy periods in a supermarket (those who have to shop at the weekend because of work commitments).  One of the problems visitors to events have in judging whether or not to go is that they can't predict how busy they will be until they are there, and quite possibly have paid for admission.

[SM42]

Whilst there is still a recognised  need for a degree of caution in any public space, it appears the relaxing of restrictions has, for many, meant that caution can be thrown to the wind

I'm not staying in, but I am careful of the environments I put myself in and do what I can to mitigate any risks to myself or to others from me. 

 

The big problem is the unknown of what others do and what their attitude to risk is. 

 

What else they have done in  their spare time, which I would consider high risk at present?

 Such as going to  pubs and clubs and getting drunk

 

The pictures posted above make me slightly uncomfortable  about exhibitions at present, but a picture doesn't give the full picture as it were. 

There are more risk factors than just number of people. 

 

I would probably be OK if I were there,  just a little bit more aware of what was going on  around me than normal. 

 

Would I put myself in that environment?

I'd love to, but maybe not quite yet.

 

Andy