The return of exhibitions - a further poll

[bradfordbuffer]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The level of crowding at this show appears to be a lot less than seems to have been the pre-covid norm at  Warley, Ally Pally or York.

I would say it's about the same as the busy periods in a supermarket (those who have to shop at the weekend because of work commitments).  One of the problems visitors to events have in judging whether or not to go is that they can't predict how busy they will be until they are there, and quite possibly have paid for admission.

shop at a weekend....brave or fool hardy?...have you seen morrisons on Saturday?....posh Karen dons designer mask leaves her 4x4....sloshes hands in gel....side steps any one within 2meters with the look of fear as if in her eyes  [with perfect eye brows] episode of the living dead....sees last ripe avocado,,,mask slips to under chin...comes within 10cms of  living dead to snaffle avocado.

[Mike Bellamy]

 

Were there any signs to encourage mask wearing ?  It's the Mickleover (Derby) village hall show this weekend and I spent almost all day on the door issuing tickets. I was wearing a mask and we had a sign on the outside door and another on the pay desk to ask our visitors to wear a mask and it was noticeable the number who pulled one out of their pocket as they either read the notice or saw that I was wearing one. However I would guess that for some of our visitors, it was the same mask they had been wearing since last Christmas as there were one or two rather unclean examples!!

 

A few people asked if they had to wear one and I explained it was not a compulsory requirement to enter the show but if they could it would be appreciated - we had a supply of masks on the table and about 10 were taken. Hand sanitising was also in available at the entrance to the show and also our clubrooms which were also open.

 

Seeing Andy's original photo, personally I would have been happy in that situation but I would have worn a mask, used sanitiser and tested a few days later.

 

 

[TheQ]

14 hours ago, Legend said:

Up in Scotland it’s still a requirement to wear a mask in public places, and I have to say I’m happy at that . I’m surprised there aren’t more mask wearers in that picture . Even though it’s not a legal requirement I would have thought more people would have been exercising caution . There is still a virus out there and from yesterday’s news it still seems to be killing 130 daily on average .  It’s not just about protection for you it’s about giving protection to exhibitors and traders 
 

I am hoping Model Rail Scotland goes ahead in February but also that it remains a requirement to wear a mask in public places in Scotland , otherwise I may have to reconsider a visit 

May be a legal requirement in Scotland, but I was in Bo'ness last week and there were less wearing masks in their Tesco's,  than the Tesco's in Stalham in Norfolk this week. And as for the motorway service station on the A 74 (Gretna) hardly any masks worn...

Not sure if I'll be able to make the MRS show, I'd like too, it's probably going to be put off till the following year when I'll have retired, and hopefully all shows will be running properly by then..

[Mike Bellamy]

14 hours ago, Kris said:

From my personal point of view this photo makes it look uncomfortably crowded with minimal mask wearing. Going forward I see this as a real challenge for exhibition managers, one that I don't see an immediate resolution to. 

 

I would say it's a challenge for the visitor to decide if they want to take the risk or not of going into a public space rather than a challenge for the exhibition manager. The organisers put on a show but it's the visitors who decide if they will attend or not - put another way, as mentioned by others, that's no more crowded than a supermarket and again this was a challenge for the shoppers and not the shop manager.

[john new]

On 06/07/2021 at 16:55, GoingUnderground said:

What is felt to be belligerent and downright unfriendly by some could be seen as clear and unambiguous to others. "No Mask No Entry" doesn't seem that different to me to "No Helmet No Boots NO JOB". - direct and to the point.

 

Masks work by reducing the velocity of the air leaving your mouth and nose, and spreading your exhalation over a wider area, a bit like the wide spark arrester type chimneys seen on wood burning locos. This reduces the potential concentration of virus particles in your breath, and the lower velocity means that it travels less far. So if there is someone near you any virus particles are less likely to get as far as the other person, and of they do get that far, the number of particles that the other person could inhale will be reduced. You can get masks that trap water droplets, but the act of catching the droplets can clog the filters and they are more expensive. If you'd stood outside your mother-in-law's and breathed out into the cold air without a mask you'd have seen that your breath would have travelled much further and in a tighter stream.

 

The comment "may" seems to refer to the fabric masks that you can buy and wash and reuse. Their effectiveness depends on the density of the weave and whether there is any filter layer as well, as both factors affect their effectiveness. If you go into a hospital for outpatient treatment or to visit an outpatients clinic in my personal experience over the last 15 months they always ask you to remove your fabric mask and replace it with the NHS style mask.

 

Masks are not 100% effective anyway so the wording will have to reflect that uncertainty by using words like "may", "might", or "could" protect, as opposed to "will" protect  which implies 100% effectiveness all the time.

 

You are right when you say that the removal of social distancing will reduce the effectiveness of masks but there will still be some benefit by the dissipation of what we exhale over a wider area.

 

Given that even our shiny new Health Secretary is saying that new case numbers could potentially go up to 100,000+ per day, and there remains the  possibility of lockdowns being reimposed if hospitalisations start to get out of hand again, I can't see shops rushing to take down the screens or any of the other Covid-related signage. For a start they'd need somewhere to store everything safely in case it's all needed again.

 

I shall continue to wear a mask and social distance when I'm out getting the groceries and try to go when the store is less busy, but I imagine that I'm going to get lots of "funny looks", and am thinking of going back to getting our stuff delivered again.

Some of us think the removal of mask requirements and floor markings, one way flows etc., in shops has already gone too far too soon. Also the attitude of some people (what may now be the majority) towards avoiding any distancing attempt suggests “they think it is all over”. It isn’t despite wishing it was. 
 

I could have taken Grandson to Mickelover today, not doing so due to conserving fuel for the 300 mile run home next week, but not sure if I would have risked it even without that.
 

Edited October 3, 2021 by john new
Typo correction

[Nearholmer]

39 minutes ago, Mike Bellamy said:

I would say it's a challenge for the visitor to decide if they want to take the risk or not

This thread seems to make it simpler to decide whether or not to go to big MR exhibitions over this autumn/winter.

 

It becomes clear that, as I suspect is the case in shops, restaurants etc., a significant number of people feel no need to consider the welfare of anyone but themselves when deciding whether to “mask up” or not, so don’t bother. Decision made in my case: don’t attend such events for now; review position next spring.

 

With shops it’s pretty simple to choose the quietest times, and the shops where a high percentage of people still mask-up. I shall do the same with MR events over the autumn/winter: choose the ones where spaciousness and masking are pretty well guaranteed, which probably means smaller, specialist club/society events.

 

[2750Papyrus]

I would like to see exhibition conditions of entry as follows:

 

1) Visitors able to produce "vaccine passport" or equivalent given green wrist bands, mask wearing to be discretionary.

 

2) Visitors unable to produce such documentation to be given orange wristbands and required to wear a mask (FFP2?), available at point of entry if required.

 

Under these conditions, I would probably be prepared to visit an such as GETS but appreciate that some attendees might then choose to stay away.  I wonder what the effect on visitor numbers would be?

[Chris M]

The problem is that many measures are marginal and we don’t really know how effective they are. There have been a number of studies regarding whether you can catch coronavirus from surfaces. Some say coronavirus can live on a surface for a week or more while other studies have found that the virus is never strong enough on a surface to cause an infection. This means sanitising may or may not be useful. Likewise studies have shown that the wearing of masks only has a marginal effect on spreading the virus.

The one thing that has been proven beyond all doubt is the effectiveness of the vaccine. Yes you can still catch the virus if you have been double vaccinated and you can still pass it on but the chances of catching it are very much reduced and if you have it you are less infectious for a shorter time. Based on this I would like to see all exhibitions insist on a Covid passport for all visitors and exhibitors. This is probably the single most effective action that can be taken.

[Nearholmer]

13 minutes ago, Chris M said:

Based on this I would like to see all exhibitions insist on a Covid passport for all visitors and exhibitors. This is probably the single most effective action that can be taken.

Agree.

[jonhall]

2 minutes ago, Chris M said:

The problem is that many measures are marginal and we don’t really know how effective they are.

 

I think we know that (particularly in combination) they are extremely effective at preventing the spread of respiratory viruses. The business results of the makers* of cough/cold remedies tell the story, they have had terrible cough/cold seasons in both hemispheres in the last 18 months. Terrible in this context meaning very few people have become ill and needed to buy their products!

 

*like the one I work for.

 

Jon (who wore a mask all day yesterday)

 

[dagrizz]

1 minute ago, jonhall said:

 

I think we know that (particularly in combination) they are extremely effective at preventing the spread of respiratory viruses. The business results of the makers* of cough/cold remedies tell the story, they have had terrible cough/cold seasons in both hemispheres in the last 18 months. Terrible in this context meaning very few people have become ill and needed to buy their products!

 

*like the one I work for.

 

Jon (who wore a mask all day yesterday)

 

 

It is more likely that the reduction in coughs/colds last winter was because we were mixing less in our warm and stuffy homes.

 

Graham

[08221]

Had a good day yesterday exhibiting my layout at the Sutton Coldfield railway society exhibition.

 

Plenty of signs up encouraging visitors to wear masks and wash/sanitise their hands.

 

Interesting that less young people were wearing masks than older.

 

A good day all in all, great to be back exhibiting and felt safe throughout.

[APOLLO]

Just now, Chris M said:

Based on this I would like to see all exhibitions insist on a Covid passport for all visitors and exhibitors. This is probably the single most effective action that can be taken.

 

I Agree.  My twins went to see "The Beauty & The Beast" at the Liverpool Empire theatre last week. Covid vac certificates were a condition of entry, as was mask wearing.

 

https://www.groupleisureandtravel.com/features/covid-passports-how-to-prepare-for-visiting-the-theatre/9223.article

 

They said very few people on the train bothered to wear masks. Dual standards it seems. I think we have lifted mask wearing too early, perhaps the Government should have left that restriction in place over the coming winter.

 

Brit15

[corneliuslundie]

Still needed in Wales on public transport and in shops etc. The Welsh government has been criticised for being too cautious by some politicians.

Jonathan

[Roger Sunderland]

Definitely passports and mask wearing, plus more space, reduced crowding at peak times (booking?) and barriers further back to protect the exhibitors. My personal view is that GETS has not done any of these and that puts the operators/exhibitors at a higher risk.

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

I would like to see exhibition conditions of entry as follows:

 

1) Visitors able to produce "vaccine passport" or equivalent given green wrist bands, mask wearing to be discretionary.

 

2) Visitors unable to produce such documentation to be given orange wristbands and required to wear a mask (FFP2?), available at point of entry if required.

 

Under these conditions, I would probably be prepared to visit an such as GETS but appreciate that some attendees might then choose to stay away.  I wonder what the effect on visitor numbers would be?

But what is a good enough vaccine passport?  Is that little bit of cardboard they gave me when I had my jab good enough?  Which I could forge quite easily.  Or does it have to be something more secure obtained separately?  Would a Scottish or foreign one do?  The people on the door don't necessarily read Welsh.   Are some places going to accept one form but not another?

Do I have to have had my third (booster) jab, perhaps for shows after some date ?  The one that is not available yet - and even when it is, they won't let you have until 6 months after the second jab?

If I'm exempt from jabs for medical reasons do I need to obtain some sort of doctor's certificate to prove that?

 

If shops and public transport aren't insisting them, is the risk really any different from catching the bus to work or getting your groceries when it's busy?

 

3 hours ago, Chris M said:

Some say coronavirus can live on a surface for a week or more while other studies have found that the virus is never strong enough on a surface to cause an infection.

 

 

If there is indeed a risk from surfaces, then smoke doors, escalator and staircase handrails seem to be a particularly high risk as they can't be sanitised every time somebody touches them.  Also push buttons on lifts, ATMs etc.  My instinct is to say that if it were a problem, that would be a major reason why it spread so widely last year when in theory only the key workers were out and about, and they rather than vulnerable OAPs should have been the ones dropping like flies.  So I suspect it's not a big risk, but unfortunately nobody really knows.

[woodenhead]

8 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If there is indeed a risk from surfaces, then smoke doors, escalator and staircase handrails seem to be a particularly high risk as they can't be sanitised every time somebody touches them.  Also push buttons on lifts, ATMs etc.  My instinct is to say that if it were a problem, that would be a major reason why it spread so widely last year when in theory only the key workers were out and about, and they rather than vulnerable OAPs should have been the ones dropping like flies.  So I suspect it's not a big risk, but unfortunately nobody really knows.

Some locations installed special cleaning equipment to escalators that would constantly soak the touch surfaces in ultraviolet light to combat perceived infection from Covid.

 

However, a German medical team took a whole town to task early in the pandemic to test whether Covid sat around on surfaces and came to the conclusion it didn't and it wasn't where infections were coming from.

 

That all said, I use my elbows a heck of a lot more now than I did.

Edited October 3, 2021 by woodenhead
added elbows comments

[caradoc]

My first post-Covid exhibition (since Model Rail Glasgow in February last year) will be Cathcart over the weekend of 30th/31st October. I am looking forward to it and am very grateful to all those making it possible. I will of course wear a face mask and will take my vaccination 'certificate' although I am unsure if it will be required. I doubt whether pre-booking and specified entry times are necessary for a relatively small show such as this (regarding the latter, if entry times are to be specified should not an exit time be specified also - If so, how would that be enforced ?).

 

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

But what is a good enough vaccine passport?  Is that little bit of cardboard they gave me when I had my jab good enough?  Which I could forge quite easily.  Or does it have to be something more secure obtained separately?  Would a Scottish or foreign one do? 

 

Valid points, to which I would add, who actually examines the vaccine passport and deems it valid, what training and knowledge do they have for this duty ? The process also requires the examiner to come into close contact with the examinee ! 

 

My vaccine passport is a document from NHS Scotland which I printed at home, showing my two vaccination dates, and the vaccine administered - It would be the easiest thing in the world to create something similar on a computer. 

 

 

[bradfordbuffer]

5 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

I would like to see exhibition conditions of entry as follows:

 

1) Visitors able to produce "vaccine passport" or equivalent given green wrist bands, mask wearing to be discretionary.

 

2) Visitors unable to produce such documentation to be given orange wristbands and required to wear a mask (FFP2?), available at point of entry if required.

 

Under these conditions, I would probably be prepared to visit an such as GETS but appreciate that some attendees might then choose to stay away.  I wonder what the effect on visitor numbers would be?

Dangerous demands?....could cause medical segregation!

 

History should shows how dangerous segregation is....wrist bands...stars on coat all the same? Pappers please....or scan chip in your arm?

 

Not everyone can have the jab! Not everyone agrees with jab...

 

No one was demanded 5 years ago to visit warley you had to be flu jabed and used half a can of deodorant...although any one who attends show will know not everyone uses it just like hand gell....how many visitors git a cold from rubbing shoulders and holding on to steel barriers?

 

I'm not saying masks are good or bad...

But feel it was more to do with personal perspective of security!...look how dirty some single use masks are! (I've re used my self! But not for a hole year! Sill bad practice)

[Nearholmer]

27 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If shops and public transport aren't insisting them, is the risk really any different from catching the bus to work or getting your groceries when it's busy?

The probability of catching it is likely of the same order, maybe somewhat greater due to longer time in the environment, maybe somewhat less if the ventilation is particularly good.

 

So, it isn’t a huge probability, but neither is it a vanishingly small one.

 

Risk-thinking should include not only the probability of catching it, but the consequences, both to the individual and the people they pass it on to, of course.

 

If you ferret around in scientific journals on-line, you will see the surface-transfer vs airborne transmission discussed, and it is pretty clear that airborne is the dominant mechanism in  public spaces. 

[Nearholmer]

3 minutes ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Dangerous demands?....could cause medical segregation

The effect of the current ‘do as you see fit’ is segregation.

 

Those who are old or otherwise vulnerable are segregated by reason of the need to be ultra cautious when others are far less so.

 

An inclusive situation would be one in which everyone thought very hard about the consequences of their decisions on everyone else, not just themselves, and I’m far from convinced that is what I see in the U.K. currently.

[laurenceb]

6 hours ago, Mike Bellamy said:

 

Were there any signs to encourage mask wearing ?  It's the Mickleover (Derby) village hall show this weekend and I spent almost all day on the door issuing tickets. I was wearing a mask and we had a sign on the outside door and another on the pay desk to ask our visitors to wear a mask and it was noticeable the number who pulled one out of their pocket as they either read the notice or saw that I was wearing one. However I would guess that for some of our visitors, it was the same mask they had been wearing since last Christmas as there were one or two rather unclean examples!!

 

A few people asked if they had to wear one and I explained it was not a compulsory requirement to enter the show but if they could it would be appreciated - we had a supply of masks on the table and about 10 were taken. Hand sanitising was also in available at the entrance to the show and also our clubrooms which were also open.

 

Seeing Andy's original photo, personally I would have been happy in that situation but I would have worn a mask, used sanitiser and tested a few days later.

 

 

From where I was sitting about 50% were wearing some kind of face covering.

[Legend]

56 minutes ago, caradoc said:

My first post-Covid exhibition (since Model Rail Glasgow in February last year) will be Cathcart over the weekend of 30th/31st October. I am looking forward to it and am very grateful to all those making it possible. I will of course wear a face mask and will take my vaccination 'certificate' although I am unsure if it will be required. I doubt whether pre-booking and specified entry times are necessary for a relatively small show such as this (regarding the latter, if entry times are to be specified should not an exit time be specified also - If so, how would that be enforced ?).

 

 

Valid points, to which I would add, who actually examines the vaccine passport and deems it valid, what training and knowledge do they have for this duty ? The process also requires the examiner to come into close contact with the examinee ! 

 

My vaccine passport is a document from NHS Scotland which I printed at home, showing my two vaccination dates, and the vaccine administered - It would be the easiest thing in the world to create something similar on a computer. 

 

 

Is Cathcart on ? I haven’t seen any notifications . Is it in Pollockshields town hall as usual ?  

[Crisis Rail]

6 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

I would like to see exhibition conditions of entry as follows:

 

1) Visitors able to produce "vaccine passport" or equivalent given green wrist bands, mask wearing to be discretionary.

 

2) Visitors unable to produce such documentation to be given orange wristbands and required to wear a mask (FFP2?), available at point of entry if required.

 

Under these conditions, I would probably be prepared to visit an such as GETS but appreciate that some attendees might then choose to stay away.  I wonder what the effect on visitor numbers would be?

 

Absolutely not.

 

It's called Subdivision.

[Crisis Rail]

46 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The effect of the current ‘do as you see fit’ is segregation.

 

Those who are old or otherwise vulnerable are segregated by reason of the need to be ultra cautious when others are far less so.

 

An inclusive situation would be one in which everyone thought very hard about the consequences of their decisions on everyone else, not just themselves, and I’m far from convinced that is what I see in the U.K. currently.

 

 

6 hours ago, Chris M said:

The problem is that many measures are marginal and we don’t really know how effective they are. There have been a number of studies regarding whether you can catch coronavirus from surfaces. Some say coronavirus can live on a surface for a week or more while other studies have found that the virus is never strong enough on a surface to cause an infection. This means sanitising may or may not be useful. Likewise studies have shown that the wearing of masks only has a marginal effect on spreading the virus.

The one thing that has been proven beyond all doubt is the effectiveness of the vaccine. Yes you can still catch the virus if you have been double vaccinated and you can still pass it on but the chances of catching it are very much reduced and if you have it you are less infectious for a shorter time. Based on this I would like to see all exhibitions insist on a Covid passport for all visitors and exhibitors. This is probably the single most effective action that can be taken.

 

All seems depressingly grim.

 

Maybe we should just forget about Exhibitions?

 

Until..........?