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The return of exhibitions - a further poll


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On 30/06/2021 at 18:52, Torper said:

Two of the exhibitions that I might normally expect to attend involve fairly lengthy train journeys.  I'd be more put off by having to travel for several hours in a train than I would be by attending the exhibition.

 

DT

Why?  It's way safer than driving and better for the planet too.  Yes, you get the odd Twitter pic of a crammed DMU on a sunny bank holiday highlighting the impossibility of social distancing but my experience of train travel over the last year has been one of very clean trains and - particularly with newer stock - a well ventilated and pleasant environment, even when busy.

 

On another note it's worth considering that although many on here have filled out the survey a great many exhibition visitors will not be RMweb-ers.  A large proportion who attend (and thus contribute to the coffers) are families with young children - so important to this hobby and largely forgotten over the last year of restrictions - I could be wrong but I don't think they would be so enthusiastic about visiting somewhere that chooses to enforce masks/distancing etc when there are so many other options for a day out.

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2 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

 

Which cautious approach seems somewhat at odds with your ever so bold Avatar:jester:

 

Sorry, couldn't help myself....

 

And he needs goggles and breathing mask to survive on Helghan.

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Posted (edited)

In some areas social distancing etc on trains is already an issue before the rules are eased:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-57680023

Much criticism of TfW but note that it is stated that all its trains were in use. What is a rail operator supposed to do? just leave passengers behind?

And imagine the treatment on-board staff would get if they tried to enforce sensible but not legally required  behaviour.

Jonathan

Edited by corneliuslundie
typo
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1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Unvaccinated people should be relatively well protected because they are surrounded by those who are - herd immunity at play.  

 

To be honest I am much less worried about those who have not been vaccinated - especially if they have ignored the opportunities.   They take their own risks and hopefully do not infect others (but they probably will).

 

I am however worried about the exhibitors, traders, demonstrators.   AS I explained earlier they are at more risk than we the general unwashed.  If they, vaccinated or not, fall ill as a result of exhibitions, where will we be for the next round of exhibitions?  

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This is going to quite difficult to navigate - but then general life is going to be too. Will I feel comfortable in a supermarket queue with nobody wearing masks and standing up close to me? Will I avoid public places and events more once restrictions are lifted than now?

 

The challenge for exhibitions is to very clearly advertise their safety measures and then we can make an informed decision based on their plans. I’d like to get to the N gauge show in September, but as of now, if there are no restrictions at all, I certainly wouldn’t go. 
 

That said, I need several months of getting used to Joe Public coughing over me and invading my personal space again, and seeing hard evidence that thousands more people aren’t being killed before I know for certain my intentions. If it really is safe, if the vaccines prevent mass spreading of new variants, and by going to exhibitions and other events without restrictions I am not wracked with fear of killing my mum when I see her, then maybe life and exhibition attendance will return to normal.

 

Time will tell, but this is an awful big gamble the country is taking…

 

David

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Undoubtedly there will be fewer exhibitions to attend. Not necessarily due to Covid, I can think of three exhibitions that I used to attend on a regular basis that folded in the couple of years prior to the pandemic. This trend was also noticeably increasing as time went by. 

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2 hours ago, Solo said:

Why?  It's way safer than driving and better for the planet too.  Yes, you get the odd Twitter pic of a crammed DMU on a sunny bank holiday highlighting the impossibility of social distancing but my experience of train travel over the last year has been one of very clean trains and - particularly with newer stock - a well ventilated and pleasant environment, even when busy.

 

As I said back on page 2 of this thread, "I fully accept that, but in the current situation logic tends to fly out the window and psychological aspects tend to prevail and as things stand I would be unhappy about putting myself in a confined space with a load of complete strangers for any length of time.  Besides which it's not the trains themselves that are the potential problem, it's some of the eejits who might be using them and as recent events have shown there are still plenty of covid eejits about.  But as things improve and settle down so, I think, will my state of mind and I am sure that I will in due course become confident again about using the railways."

 

As for the pleasant environment, have you tried Azuma seats?

 

DT

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Pre Covid the only exhibition worry I had was getting my eye poked by a yard of Peco track stuck out of a smelly unwashed Eejits (like the word !!) rucksack !!

 

Anyway, last 18 months I have adjusted my world, and will continue post Covid (if there is such a thing) to do the following (as best I can).

 

Public Transport - Avoid. Not been on a plane /  train / bus / taxi for a year and a half. So perhaps I can do without.

 

Crowds - always find a tad stressful, I will now avoid if I can.

 

Queues - avoid, but at checkouts I will wear a mask, try as best as possible to distance, and if anyone is breathing down my neck they will be asked to back off a bit.

 

Pubs. My local three are OK. One is a large Wetherspoon's hotel which is quite OK. I will use the app. Friday night scrums at the bar in pubs closer to town are now history for me. As we say in Wigan "Sod that for a game of soldiers" !!

 

One good thing is I walk a lot more, one hour a day whatever the weather. I'm lucky to have some very nice rural areas nearby. I feel a lot better for it also, physically & mentally. This will continue as long as I can.

 

In lots of areas there is no going back to pre covid ways for me, and I feel better for it.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

 

Not quite true.

Double mask wearing (as in both parties wear a mask) by the infected and the potential victim reduces the chances of infection to below 5%.

This is marginally beaten by the Pfizer vaccine and just beats the AZ vaccine.

So mask wearing is much more than just a badge.

 

However - and I have held off commentating on this until now - I am appalled by the British attitude to mask wearing. 

 

In France entry to any public building, visit to the doctor or nurse, the vet, any shop etc.  indeed in some cities and departements (counties) anywhere in the outdoor public area will be met with a sign  "masque obligatiore" (You must wear a mask).  No lanyards, no doctors exemptions, no letters from mum - Johnny should be excused mask wearing today - no mask = no entry.

 

I think it comes from the British principle that everything is acceptable unless banned whereas the French system is effectively the other way round (thanks Napoleon). Given the various infection rates the sheeple in France clinging to their face masks outside (even with social distancing!) made no difference. Then again the French never seemed to cotton on that the transmission rate for a social distancing at 2m was much less than 1m (and a smidgen less than 1m+masks). So I was appalled with the French attitude to social distancing (and no love and huggies! or crammed street cafes) :rolleyes:.

Edited by Bomag
Something censored my post.
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Posted (edited)

Well done HMG, we've now got the worst of all worlds.

Those that could never give an Eartha Kitt will continue to be selfish.

Those that feel for whatever reason that they prefer to mask up, will now feel threatened by the Laurence Fox following numpties burning their masks like latter day 60s feminists, so may feel even more unlikely to go out.

And me?  I'll still have conniptions because some people will be wearing masks, even though I won't need to prove an exemption, so won't be going shopping any time soon.

Clear as concrete.

[edit] I should add I live in Wales, and we tend to do things diffunt.  I suspect the Welsh approach will differ even though the other side of the Dyke they have set a date for removal of compulsion.  The First Minister has always said he won't be bounced into a date and whatever people think of him, he is prepared to stick to any unpopular restrictions if the numbers suggest to - and the Delta variant is running riot in North Wales, although I live in one of only two wards that currently have zero cases being registered in the whole of Wales.

Edited by wombatofludham
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I'm reminded of the the words of the Great Sir Humphrey Appleton. "Government policy and common sense have nothing to do with each other!"

It just goes to show "Yes Minister!" More of a documentary  than a fictional comedy.

 

Marc

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14 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

If it's a condition of entry and hey haven't got one on they'd be refused entry (unless satisfactory proof of exemption is offered), if they were seen without one in the event a steward would politely ask them to comply. If there was a refusal then security (if employed) would ask them to leave.

 

 

 

This has been a topic for discussion long into the night. If there is no law making masks compulsory, how can anybody be exempt from a law that doesn’t exist? Thoughts?

 

Not it looking forward to the 19th of July. Customers can be in and out as quick as they choose. Shop staff etc are there all day. We have a staff member who won’t be eligible for a second jab until the beginning of August, that puts him mid August for protection to be relatively effective.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

This has been a topic for discussion long into the night. If there is no law making masks compulsory, how can anybody be exempt from a law that doesn’t exist? Thoughts?

 

 

it's not Law , it the fact any shop or company or exhibition  can refuse entry to someone who doesn't comply with their wishes as long as it isn't on race, religious or sexuality grounds. Like posh restaurants refusing entry for not wearing a tie or not being smartly dressed.  

Actually you can't be refused for not wearing a tie, unless they force the women to wear one too..

Edited by TheQ
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I can see one big problem with 'personal responsibility' at model railway exhibitions in the new Covid world we are entering.  That problem is that the 'new' additional elements of 'personal responsibility' might well only be heeded by some to the same extent that they have heeded the past 'requirements'.  If you can't rely on someone to wash or use deodorant before they venture out what hope is there of them trying to mitigate the risks of spreading or acquiring a very actively infectious virus?

 

Alas I think I know the answer to that one. 

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Posted (edited)

I just don' t get HM Govts view on masks . I can understand the need to open up the economy . I think the Govt view is that we've vaccinated as many as we can , cut the hospitalisation rates to reasonable levels , so we have to open up the economy . We can't go on like this for ever. But surely if wearing masks was essential for the last 16 months then they must do some good preventing further infections when we open up .

 

I do get the PMs thrust that its up to us now to take responsibility (I always thought it was) and not the Govt , trouble is there are a lot of irresponsible people out there .  And if you are in a crowd even though you might have taken full precautions if there is someone around who just doesnt give a **** then you are reduced to the lowest possible denominator.  So I think that makes large gatherings just too risky . 

 

For that reason , I will be avoiding public transport , using the car where I can control my own environment  and avoiding crowds for the foreseeable future . I was never a regular pub drinker , so can avoid that easily  and I'll just avoid going to restaurants . I think this relaxation of rules  means my attendance at exhibitions just became less likely . Ironically the relaxing of rules to such an extent may actually be detrimental to opening up the economy if folks think its more risky . 

 

I would like to know if there are masks out there that can stop me getting infected . I think the emphasis has just changed and we must look to protect ourselves .

 

 

Edited by Legend
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39 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

This has been a topic for discussion long into the night. If there is no law making masks compulsory, how can anybody be exempt from a law that doesn’t exist? Thoughts?

 

Not it looking forward to the 19th of July. Customers can be in and out as quick as they choose. Shop staff etc are there all day. We have a staff member who won’t be eligible for a second jab until the beginning of August, that puts him mid August for protection to be relatively effective.

 

Could you not put a sign on your door stating "For staff health reasons all customers MUST wear a mask upon entry, unless medically exempt" ?

 

I don't know the legalities of this though.

 

Best wishes,

 

Brit15

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24 minutes ago, TheQ said:

it's not Law , it the fact any shop or company or exhibition  can refuse entry to someone who doesn't comply with their wishes as long as it isn't on race, religious or sexuality grounds. Like posh restaurants refusing entry for not wearing a tie or not being smartly dressed.  

Actually you can't be refused for not wearing a tie, unless they force the women to wear one too..

 

 

You may find, this is information l received from the Federation of Small Businesses. The average payment to members of the public  is circa £13,000. This is for people who have challenged the refusal to admit them to premises for failure to wear a mask. So the Courts seem to recognise this as law.

 

Locally, two men who weren’t exempt were fine £1760 each for failing to wear a mask in Asda.

 

l could go on,  as you are entering private property, anywhere can refuse you entry. For any reason. Providing, it’s not for race, religion, sexuality or disability.

 

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8 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

I would like to know if there are masks out there that can stop me getting infected . I think the emphasis has just changed and me must look to protect ourselves .

 

 

 

Yes - FFP3 medical-grade masks as used by healthcare professionals.  Pricey and unfortunately disposable but will protect the wearer.  Problem with the mask rule in the UK is of course that it was always just 'face coverings'.  A random piece of cloth or those disposable blue 'surgical'-type masks that you see so many people with (and should be banned) do very little for both wearer or those around them.  The blue disposable ones are good for about half an hour before they need to be binned and added to the growing worldwide mask-mountain.

 

I will be ditching my mask as soon as the law allows but you're right in that if there are those that wish to continue wearing for personal protection then you would need to be thinking about something that actually gives you protection.

 

12 hours ago, Torper said:

 

As for the pleasant environment, have you tried Azuma seats?

 

DT

 

Rather off-topic but yes, they're my regular commute - certainly on the firm side but I like Azumas in general - clean and spacious with very nice loos!

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3 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Could you not put a sign on your door stating "For staff health reasons all customers MUST wear a mask upon entry, unless medically exempt" ?

 

I don't know the legalities of this though.

 

Best wishes,

 

Brit15

 

A decision we will have to make in the not too distant future. It’s the legalities that scare us. I rather think we will be making the current sign even larger. We have earned a reputation as being a very covid safe environment and customers have complimented us on working so hard to make it so.

 

It’s the Covidiots that bother us and our customers. 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

 

You may find, this is information l received from the Federation of Small Businesses. The average payment to members of the public  is circa £13,000. This is for people who have challenged the refusal to admit them to premises for failure to wear a mask. So the Courts seem to recognise this as law.

 

Locally, two men who weren’t exempt were fine £1760 each for failing to wear a mask in Asda.

 

l could go on,  as you are entering private property, anywhere can refuse you entry. For any reason. Providing, it’s not for race, religion, sexuality or disability.

 

yes but we are talking about when the law is repealed, probably in a couple of weeks time..

Edited by TheQ
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My only negative experience at exhibitions is air quality - my wife left because basically more than a few people should have showered. Hopefully Covid is imp[roving personal hygiene so I will be going to another one but actually what I need is training - on iTrains and the more advanced aspects of DCC and block detection  

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1 hour ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

A decision we will have to make in the not too distant future. It’s the legalities that scare us. I rather think we will be making the current sign even larger. We have earned a reputation as being a very covid safe environment and customers have complimented us on working so hard to make it so.

 

It’s the Covidiots that bother us and our customers. 

 

The problem you have is that H&S law is based a the hierarchy of measures (ERIC) and face masks are very definitely a Control measures (they don't even count as PPE unless they meet the medical performance standard). By continuing to require them for customers you are saying that your shop is otherwise unsafe for them. Given that social distancing (an Isolation measure) is about a order of magnitude more effective, the best option is to limit the number of people in the shop and require social distancing between groups. As long as you allow carers and family units to stay together then you have almost no issues with either H&SWA 1974 or EA 2010, well much less than insisting on face masks.

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13 minutes ago, deepfat said:

My only negative experience at exhibitions is air quality - my wife left because basically more than a few people should have showered. Hopefully Covid is imp[roving personal hygiene so I will be going to another one but actually what I need is training - on iTrains and the more advanced aspects of DCC and block detection  

They are now to be used on the door as a test for Covid, if you can smell them you've not got it and you can enter the venue.

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