Neath & Brecon Railway Livery Question

[1165Valour]

I've been looking into the Neath & Brecon Railway - lovely little railway, and a busy one too, with the Midland Railway using it to get to Swansea and plenty of coal traffic.

 

I can't find any images suggesting what liveries were used for engines, carriages, and wagons. Does anyone have any information on this?

[corneliuslundie]

There is a section on the N&B in "Great Western Way", published by the HMRS and still available.

For early days the book does not offer much: about colours. The earliest suggestion of a particular colour is "probably red-brown" for 2-4-0T No. 6. No firm suggestions for other locos.

"Little is known about N&B coaching stock livery except that until about 1910 or the Great War they were painted 'cream above and brown below'."

and "the cream seems to extend well below the windows" describing a photo from around 1900. But there also at some stage seem to have been carriages painted a single colour. And in contradiction of the above, commenting on the second photo,, "the two colour coaches have the brown extending upwards to just below the windows. The ends appear to be brown." Re lining, there is none visible in photos of condemned N&B stock at Swindon. The carriages acquired from the Hull & Barnsley in 1920 remained in varnished teak.

for goods stock "the livery is said to be lead grey with black ironwork and white lettering", I think quoting a later GWR Magazine though via Gwyn Brwnant Jones if so. There is quite a bit of discussion on the style of lettering etc, based on photos.

So not a lot to go on.

Probably not worth buying the volume just for that information - I have condensed it quite a bit. 

I suggest that you do what I am doing re the Bishop's Castle Railway. Build it and prove anyone who challenges you to prove you wrong.

Jonathan

PS I forgot to say that currently neither the HMRS nor the WRRC have a Company Steward/Line Superintendent for the company.

Edited July 1, 2021 by corneliuslundie
add PS

[wagonman]

Am I right in thinking most/all of the services between Colbren Jcn and Brecon were provided by the Midland?

[corneliuslundie]

Yes, Again from GWW: 

!In 1874 the Midland Railway leased the Hereford, Hay & Brecon Railway and the Swansea Vale Railway and acquired the latter's running powers  over the N&B. . .  In practice the Midland operated all trains over the N&B's lines between Brecon and Ynysygeinon . . ."

Jonathan

[Nick Holliday]

According to an article by the Reverend Canon Brian Arman in Railway Archive Issue 38, his friend, Tudor Watkins, described "Both the Brecon & Merthyr and Neath & Brecon railways painted their locomotives in a deep brick red livery. Before the First World War , the engines were generally beautifully kept and more than adequately maintained".  There is no mention of whether the lining matched, but there is an enigmatic comment "In their heyday, however, they presented a most colourful and contrasting appearance" with no further comment as to what they were contrasting with.  

 

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Yes, Again from GWW: 

!In 1874 the Midland Railway leased the Hereford, Hay & Brecon Railway and the Swansea Vale Railway and acquired the latter's running powers  over the N&B. . .  In practice the Midland operated all trains over the N&B's lines between Brecon and Ynysygeinon . . ."

Jonathan

The article goes on to say:"...the Midland Railway had worked the N&BR passenger service between Brecon and Ystradgynlais Junction and thence via the Swansea Vale Railway to Swansea since 1887, a working agreement which lasted until 31st December 1930."  However, it adds "For a short time in 1889, the N&BR were forced to work the whole of their main line when they fell out with the Midland due to a dispute over rents and rates."  The dispute was short lived, and the N&BR won the rates battle, prompted by the appointment of Sir Edward Watkin as their new chairman. It was through Sir Edward that the N&BR was able to borrow some MSLR rolling stock to get over the lack of Midland vehicles.

[corneliuslundie]

I was in a hurry when making my last post or I would have mentioned Sir Edward Watkin. In fact I think as soon as the dispute with the Midland was settled he went. It may have been part of the "Welsh Railway Union" proposal he was pushing.

Tudor Watkin is probably one of the most reliable commentators on the N&B.

By the way, I hope you intend building a Fairlie or two for the N&B.

In the early days of the N&B it had its own station in Brecon at Mount Street and even after there was a through connection to Free Street it has been stated that passengers were carried between the two stations on a locomotive as the link had not been passed for passenger use.

Now where did I read all this?

Jonathan

[wagonman]

17 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Now where did I read all this?

Jonathan

 

In 'The Neath & Brecon Railway' by Briwnant Jones, Dunstone, and Watkins (Gomer Press 2005)?

I've just dug my copy out...

[wagonman]

The above work describes the loco livery as "a rich red/brown" and the lining as "black with fine yellow lining. Buffers beams were vermilion lined in yellow ".

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks. I had forgotten I owned it. I obviously have too many books!

For better or worse, the attached is a transcription, as well as I could, of a hand written MS by Edward Craven in the HMRS Archives. Nothing about livery and not always clear but it might be helpful.

Jonathan

Neath and Brecon.doc

[Ian Rathbone]

Here’s one I painted for Tudor Watkins, scratch built by him.

Ian R

[wagonman]

One of the George England pair I presume.

 

[Ian Rathbone]

40 minutes ago, wagonman said:

One of the George England pair I presume.

 

Yes, Tudor has built ‘Neath’ as well. Meanwhile here’s another one, don’t ask me what it is. Also built by Tudor.

 

 

Ian R

[wagonman]

That is no.5 which was the principal passenger loco for many years. It worked between Neath and Colbren Jc only, so far as I know.

[1165Valour]

As I said, lovely little line - had connections with no less than four companies.