Swift Express Freight - Class 321 EMU

[Titan]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Actually they are not!

 

While some cowboys do exist the shortage of drivers has seen many large logistics companies raise their game pay wise with most well in excess of UK minimum wage rates reflecting that it is a skilled ocupation.

 

 

If  the wages are so low the first benchmark that comes to mind is minimum wage, it is no wonder they are struggling!  I never mentioned minimum wage - it is no good being "well in excess of UK minimum wage" if that is still lower than what they can get elsewhere for less stress.  If you pay enough they will come.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, highpeakman said:

I thought that this would be a good career move for my son a few years back but we found that obtaining an HGV licence was a major issue as we couldn't find any local transport companies willing to give any on the job training. They only wanted HGV licenced employees. So, while I was willing to pay for a training course for him, taking that course would have meant giving up the job he already had because the training period was so long plus he would have to travel a long distance every day to get to the course. As he had a young family he was unwilling to take the risk of losing the job he had. 

 

He has since got a job as a delivery driver for a car parts company so is now driving fair distances but in a large van.

 

We felt, at the time that the transport industry wasn't doing enough to support and train new drivers and maybe that is still the case.

 

 

The curse of short term thinking I'm afraid.

 

Training up someone takes time and doesn't solve the immediate need. If the focus of a business is keeping shareholders happy or dividends then long term solutions are not embraced.

 

Most apprentices schemes only exists because of Government tax incentives rather than an organic desire to train up future employees. Now thats not to say that such schemes aren't beneficial in certain ways to employers - but just how many would there be if it wasn't for Government action?

 

It doesn't help that staying with a single employer for many years is generally seen as detrital - much like car insurance the mentality is you need to continually move around to get the best job. The UKs embracing of the hire and fire mentality having a big role to play too.

 

Its interesting to note that in certain industries like airline pilots (pre-pandemic) it was increasingly the practice to make new starters to pay for the training themselves. https://blog.balpa.org/Blog/November-2017/The-reality-of-pilot-pay

 

New train drivers tend to have clawback clauses in their contracts requiring them to pay back the cost of training if they leave within a certain number of years.

[The Lurker]

52 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

New train drivers tend to have clawback clauses in their contracts requiring them to pay back the cost of training if they leave within a certain number of years.

that kind of makes sense if you spend a number of years paying to train someone up and as soon as they qualify they up sticks for another company.

 

The accountancy firms are an example of an industry that does pay its own "apprentices" to go through their exams while working. They have an endless stream of relatively cheap school leavers/ graduates who do the lower levels of work. Certainly when I trained, they would claim back some of the fees that they had paid if you left once you had qualified (usually the final fee to actually join the relevant institute or the annual membership fee), but they were also quite mercenary in kicking out people who didn't pass exams and in recruiting people who had trained elsewhere. When I finally left the profession, the firm concerned forgot to charge me my annual fee, and HR turned it down when I reminded them. This also makes them quite unusual in that the management have all done the hard graft to get where they are. Doesn't make them any better managers, mind!

[brushman47544]

Who says road access to stations will be a problem…? Didn’t I read a while ago that the likes of Amazon were looking at deliveries by drone? So all you’d need is a take-off pad next to the station…

 

Before the pandemic, Trenitalia converted one of its ETR500 sets to carry the Amazon type of parcels and the like between north and south Italy in their case using the high-speed lines. I’ve no idea how successful it’s been but the concept is not new or limited to GB.

[phil-b259]

25 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

Who says road access to stations will be a problem…? Didn’t I read a while ago that the likes of Amazon were looking at deliveries by drone? So all you’d need is a take-off pad next to the station…

 

Before the pandemic, Trenitalia converted one of its ETR500 sets to carry the Amazon type of parcels and the like between north and south Italy in their case using the high-speed lines. I’ve no idea how successful it’s been but the concept is not new or limited to GB.

 

I don't think anyone has said the concept is new overall - but in the context of the UK where the road lobby and a Government unwilling to do anything to help what it deems ' matters to be left to private enterprise' has meant its certainly a new idea for this country.

Edited July 2, 2021 by phil-b259

[ColinK]

There are some paths on the WCML  in Realtime Trains for parcels trains, but they are not running at present.

 

Re the shortage of HGV (and bus) drivers.  Just think what the job entails …..

anti-social hours so you don’t see much of your family and friends,

low pay with lots of overtime to make it up, but resulting in even less time at home,

so much time sitting down its bad for your health,

if you fail your stringent medical you lose your HGV  licence and job (happens a lot).

Unlike most jobs, a momentary lapse of concentration can result in result in an accident; you could be out of a job, in prison or dead.

[RANGERS]

7 hours ago, highpeakman said:

I thought that this would be a good career move for my son a few years back but we found that obtaining an HGV licence was a major issue as we couldn't find any local transport companies willing to give any on the job training. They only wanted HGV licenced employees. So, while I was willing to pay for a training course for him, taking that course would have meant giving up the job he already had because the training period was so long plus he would have to travel a long distance every day to get to the course. As he had a young family he was unwilling to take the risk of losing the job he had. 

 

He has since got a job as a delivery driver for a car parts company so is now driving fair distances but in a large van.

 

We felt, at the time that the transport industry wasn't doing enough to support and train new drivers and maybe that is still the case.

 

There’s a generous training allowance for driving apprentices, recently increased from 6 to 7k, but the funding is still going unspent because there aren’t enough bodies to fill the places available.

 

Most, probably all, of the major logistics and supermarket chains are affiliated to training schemes and will pay drivers a fixed rate whilst they train.

 

 

[rob D2]

11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Actually they are not!

 

While some cowboys do exist the shortage of drivers has seen many large logistics companies raise their game pay wise with most well in excess of UK minimum wage rates reflecting that it is a skilled ocupation.

 

The bigger problem is the way a large section of British society see such manual tasks as being 'beneath them' and not a worthwhile job for a Brit to be doing. In effect they all want to be bosses and employ someone else to do the hard work.

 

We have seen this in the farming sector - wages well above UK minimums are simply not attracting UK people to apply for crop picking (or those that do jacking it in after one day) to replace those not coming as result of Brexit.

 

Its not a new phenomenon - culturally the upper echelons of UK society has always been keen to exploit others - be it Irish, Empire, Commonwealth nations to do the hard work and perhaps its no surprise that several decades of economic policy designed to empower folk (home ownership, pushing a share ownership, developing property, etc) has magnified the problem and the 'we are superior' attitude amongst most Brits.

 

This is not helped by an over focus on the 'I want to be famous / on telly / an influencer / etc' attitudes being pedalled by the media across the land which undervalues proper manual work in favour of what is in effect 'get rich quick' approach.

I haven’t seen a single  HGV job advertised that reached the U.K. average pay. Who’s gonna fork out £2k to get a licence ( and even then the old ...” must have experience ...”) kicks in, to earn the same as an amazon delivery driver.

A video on FB by a driver said there are 70k CE qualified drivers in the U.K. not using their licences due to rubbish pay .

[kevinlms]

On 02/07/2021 at 10:02, Titan said:

 

 

Or to put it another way, HGV drivers are so badly paid that there are plenty of other jobs that pay better for less stress.  If the companies were prepared to pay more then the shortage would disappear... 

The rule has always been one of Supply and Demand.

 

Fact is these mostly overseas corporates, usually operating in tax havens, have altered that, because of their sheer marketing power and have depressed wages and certainly conditions.

[mdvle]

18 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

While some cowboys do exist the shortage of drivers has seen many large logistics companies raise their game pay wise with most well in excess of UK minimum wage rates reflecting that it is a skilled ocupation.

 

Minimum wage in most countries has been a joke for a long time, with minimum wage paying wages that can't be survived on, so measuring wages as above minimum wage is meaningless.

 

The proverbial econ 101 says if there is a shortage of workers then the market views the pay/benefits as substandard, and HGV drivers are no different (and interestingly the same shortage apparently exists over here in North America).

 

18 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

The bigger problem is the way a large section of British society see such manual tasks as being 'beneath them' and not a worthwhile job for a Brit to be doing. In effect they all want to be bosses and employ someone else to do the hard work.

 

Absolute nonsense - the number of people doing manual work daily clearly says that the vast majority of people don't view "manual tasks as beneath them"

 

18 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

We have seen this in the farming sector - wages well above UK minimums are simply not attracting UK people to apply for crop picking (or those that do jacking it in after one day) to replace those not coming as result of Brexit.

 

The farming sector would really have to increase it's wages to become attractive - it is after all be definition a job that can only be worked part of the year as well as being physically demanding.  There is no point putting in the work if you can't survive on only 6 months wages... (hence the reason why crop picking in most of the world relies on importing labour from low cost parts of the world - they can survive the year on what we are willing to pay for food).

 

18 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Its not a new phenomenon - culturally the upper echelons of UK society has always been keen to exploit others - be it Irish, Empire, Commonwealth nations to do the hard work and perhaps its no surprise that several decades of economic policy designed to empower folk (home ownership, pushing a share ownership, developing property, etc) has magnified the problem and the 'we are superior' attitude amongst most Brits.

 

Given how many people are now priced out of home ownership, I'm not quite sure that "superior" attitude exists among the younger generation.

 

18 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

This is not helped by an over focus on the 'I want to be famous / on telly / an influencer / etc' attitudes being pedalled by the media across the land which undervalues proper manual work in favour of what is in effect 'get rich quick' approach.

 

More complete nonsense - the famous/influencers aren't even a rounding error in the percentage of the population of their age group - though they make good click-bait headlines for the media.

 

Most of them are blindly ignoring those people and toiling away in their minimum wage jobs providing coffee/sandwiches/doing menial office work/retail/delivering your Amazon order/etc.

[Joseph_Pestell]

18 hours ago, highpeakman said:

I thought that this would be a good career move for my son a few years back but we found that obtaining an HGV licence was a major issue as we couldn't find any local transport companies willing to give any on the job training. They only wanted HGV licenced employees. So, while I was willing to pay for a training course for him, taking that course would have meant giving up the job he already had because the training period was so long plus he would have to travel a long distance every day to get to the course. As he had a young family he was unwilling to take the risk of losing the job he had. 

 

He has since got a job as a delivery driver for a car parts company so is now driving fair distances but in a large van.

 

We felt, at the time that the transport industry wasn't doing enough to support and train new drivers and maybe that is still the case.

 

 

You could repeat this story in just about any UK industry. The employers expect to get suitably qualified employees delivered to them on a plate. In other countries, employers realise that they need to invest in employees.

[Joseph_Pestell]

To get back on topic, it seems to me that this train is based on a rather limited concept.

 

The sort of cages that they are looking to transport are mainly used for grocery deliveries. For this to work for grocery companies, their main distribution depots would need to rail-served.

 

For parcels work (DPD etc), the parcels just go into the trailer in a big heap (no trollies or cages) and then get sorted by the conveyor belt system that gets pushed into the trailer. That would need more modification to the railway stock.

[highpeakman]

12 hours ago, RANGERS said:

There’s a generous training allowance for driving apprentices, recently increased from 6 to 7k, but the funding is still going unspent because there aren’t enough bodies to fill the places available.

 

Most, probably all, of the major logistics and supermarket chains are affiliated to training schemes and will pay drivers a fixed rate whilst they train.

 

 

There was no mention made of that when we made enquiries and I found nothing on line about it. One transport company just told us that if we wanted an HGV licence we would have to do it ourselves even though there was already a shortage of drivers. This was before Brexit, about 5 years ago when, I guess, it was cheaper and easier to employ European drivers. I have not looked around recently but reading comments above I do wonder if the industry is doing enough to attract new drivers into training even now.

[Northmoor]

12 hours ago, rob D2 said:

I haven’t seen a single  HGV job advertised that reached the U.K. average pay. Who’s gonna fork out £2k to get a licence ( and even then the old ...” must have experience ...”) kicks in, to earn the same as an amazon delivery driver.

A video on FB by a driver said there are 70k CE qualified drivers in the U.K. not using their licences due to rubbish pay .

I understand that a lot of long distance lorry drivers are on £35k+ which is well above the national average.  Whether that compensates for the disruptive lifestyle is another question.

At least your HGV driving hours are regulated; as an Amazon delivery driver (or more likely, sub-contractor driver) you could be driving for 15hrs/day and effectively on much less than minimum wage, because all of us who buy on line tick the cheapest/quickest delivery option without thinking whether that is actually humanly achievable or not.

[RANGERS]

43 minutes ago, highpeakman said:

There was no mention made of that when we made enquiries and I found nothing on line about it. One transport company just told us that if we wanted an HGV licence we would have to do it ourselves even though there was already a shortage of drivers. This was before Brexit, about 5 years ago when, I guess, it was cheaper and easier to employ European drivers. I have not looked around recently but reading comments above I do wonder if the industry is doing enough to attract new drivers into training even now.

Details of the apprenticeship scheme are available on the Govt website, though it doesn't look like the funding levels have been updated.

 

https://findapprenticeshiptraining.apprenticeships.education.gov.uk/courses/110

 

The increased funding announcement details are here - https://www.rha.uk.net/News/News-Blogs-and-Press-Releases/press-releases/detail/apprenticeship-funding-for-c-e-drivers-increasing-to-7-000-a-step-towards-resolving-the-driver-shortage

 

I have to say the old school thinking of drivers being expected to find their own licence does still exist in pockets around the industry but the major employers have long since moved to a more civilised approach. Any employer who isn't willing to train their staff initially isn't likely to maintain any degree of ongoing training, so probably isn't worth considering as a potential employer. Staff are a valuable asset and just as a haulier has to invest and maintain in their trucks and facilities, they should be equally committed to maintaining all of their assets.

 

The shortage isn't going to be resolved overnight, its been with us for years but has been managed by a combination of imported staff, maximising the overtime within the hours drivers can legally work, use of agency staff and a continuous drive by the industry to recruit. The latest issues are the result of a perfect storm of Brexit resulting in EU drivers returning home, cancellation of thousands of training sessions and tests since the start of the pandemic and recent changes to self-employment which has made agency work a lot less attractive than it once was.

 

Many older drivers who were furloughed in the initial periods, either as a result of them being in high risk categories or simply because their work had dried up, have also now decided to hang up their keys after being laid idle for months. The appalling working conditions that many were subjected to at that stage - refused access to toilets, cafes and service areas closed and perhaps worst of all, made to stay in cabs at destinations whilst their trucks were unloaded, sometimes involving waits of hours on end - resulted in a major loss of drivers who looked to more attractive employment.

 

 

[KDG]

15 hours ago, RANGERS said:

There’s a generous training allowance for driving apprentices, recently increased from 6 to 7k, but the funding is still going unspent because there aren’t enough bodies to fill the places available.

 

Most, probably all, of the major logistics and supermarket chains are affiliated to training schemes and will pay drivers a fixed rate whilst they train.

 

 

The company I work for, has been charged such a massive levy by the government for the apprentice scheme, that we are actively seeking to get out of it as fast as we can.

 

[RANGERS]

21 hours ago, KDG said:

The company I work for, has been charged such a massive levy by the government for the apprentice scheme, that we are actively seeking to get out of it as fast as we can.

 

And therein lies the problem, although it’s practically impossible for most employers to opt out, they’re finding it increasingly difficult to recruit enough driver apprentices to spend the funds they’re paying in.

 

Even where it is possible to opt out, it doesn’t solve the problem, just reduces the businesses training commitments. Granted, it’s pointless paying into something that won’t produce results but the without the funds there’s no incentive for new recruits so catch 22.

[Hesperus]

In theory, if this succeeds (and I really hope it does) you could probably carry a smaller number of cages in normal suburban type stock.  It could work as branches to the main trunk haul on an evening when the trains are quiet, particularly with the newer fixed formation trains like 700's that must be really empty late in the day.  They would obviously need a member of staff to maintain a division between the passengers and goods although calling him a guard could cause trouble. 

[Arun Sharma]

On 02/07/2021 at 14:15, highpeakman said:

We felt, at the time that the transport industry wasn't doing enough to support and train new drivers and maybe that is still the case.

 

For a long time the road hauliers didn't need to train their own drivers because of the large numbers of servicemen leaving HM Forces with an HGV licence. This is less and less common now.

[phil-b259]

14 hours ago, Arun Sharma said:

For a long time the road hauliers didn't need to train their own drivers because of the large numbers of servicemen leaving HM Forces with an HGV licence. This is less and less common now.

You could say the same about the airline industry and the RAF at one time. Defence cuts and an overall tightening up of the regulations* means less and less folk are coming through that route.

 

 

* (I’m told that at one time the army driving test was basically doing a couple of laps of the Barracks and as long as the commanding officers was happy, that was that) 

[lmsforever]

What will happen when diesel and petrol is finally banished   will rail be the favoured mode for frieght delivery ?  At the moment HGV,s  are still working although a friend who has been in the industry confirmed that new drivers are a premium and existing staff are working beyond retirement the exodus of continental drivers has no hope of being made good.  There have been several trials of parcels etc by rail but none have made it past the trial period .Do the companies who might use such a service basically not interested in rail even though good transit times can be achieved nationwide.

[DY444]

17 hours ago, Hesperus said:

In theory, if this succeeds (and I really hope it does) you could probably carry a smaller number of cages in normal suburban type stock.  It could work as branches to the main trunk haul on an evening when the trains are quiet, particularly with the newer fixed formation trains like 700's that must be really empty late in the day.  They would obviously need a member of staff to maintain a division between the passengers and goods although calling him a guard could cause trouble. 

 

There's nothing new under the sun.  Class 319s (and I think 321s) when built had a compartment adjacent to the cab in one driving car which could be used for mail.  The compartment had seats which could be tipped up and fixed out of the way and was accessible from the outer end external doors on the vehicle and internally via a lockable door.   

Edited July 5, 2021 by DY444

[KDG]

45 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

You could say the same about the airline industry and the RAF at one time. Defence cuts and an overall tightening up of the regulations* means less and less folk are coming through that route.

 

 

* (I’m told that at one time the army driving test was basically doing a couple of laps of the Barracks and as long as the commanding officers was happy, that was that) 

The HGV test I took in the RAF in the early 90's was around the Cardiff area, with a DVLA examiner. I passed first go, but others didn't, some didn't pass at all. As well as the driving test, there was a written exam and a practical test of roping and sheeting loads. All so I could drive the hard top Mountain Rescue 4 tonner! 

[exet1095]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

You could say the same about the airline industry and the RAF at one time. Defence cuts and an overall tightening up of the regulations* means less and less folk are coming through that route.

 

 

* (I’m told that at one time the army driving test was basically doing a couple of laps of the Barracks and as long as the commanding officers was happy, that was that) 

Mine were not. All of my Army driving tests were more stringent than my original civilian one.

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, lmsforever said:

What will happen when diesel and petrol is finally banished   will rail be the favoured mode for frieght delivery ?

 

Unlikely - the will simply shift to batteries (most likely) or perhaps something else that comes along.

 

4 hours ago, lmsforever said:

There have been several trials of parcels etc by rail but none have made it past the trial period .Do the companies who might use such a service basically not interested in rail even though good transit times can be achieved nationwide.

 

Road vehicles aren't constrained by timetables, thus any potential gains from train speed are likely lost by having to add in interfacing to the rail network to the logistics chain.

 

The only way to move parcels onto rail in any substantial amount is through direct government intervention.