Peco code 75 electrofrog single slips

[paul northcott]

Good morning. I apologise in advance if this subject has been covered before, I’ve had a trawl through and whilst there are some questions, I still don’t know what to do.

I have installed two single slips and one double slip, all Peco code 75, electrofrog. Easy is fully isolated from the surrounding track with 8 insulated joiners. 
Although I am using DCC, I am not using it to operate the point motors. I am using Cobalt ip analogue motors (2 motors each individually switched) and have wired them up exactly as recommended by DCC Concepts, including making absolutely sure the frogs are connected to the correct switch. 
in one direction, I get a perfectly smooth and correct run through the slip. However, with various blade positions, I either get a short as soon as I hit the frog, or in one combination, a complete dead section between the frogs. 
I have tried swapping the feeds to the motors from the BUS but all this does is move the shorting problem to the other route. 
I am guessing there is a polarity issue somewhere, but I’ve run out of ideas on how to fix it, electronics and wiring not being my strong point. I can’t believe this is a unique problem as I am using popular components. Swapping the slips out for individual points is not an option due to space, and largely following a prototype track layout.

Has any one had this same issue and come up with a solution? 
thank you in advance. 

[Free At Last]

On the single slip you have to also ensure the route is electrically set not just the physical route.
There are three routes through a single slip, it can not be used as a diamond it has to be operated like a double slip.
 

[paul northcott]

I think that’s my problem , there’s something going wrong with the frog switching but I can’t work out what it is. 

[meil]

See here:

 

[Free At Last]

48 minutes ago, paul northcott said:

I think that’s my problem , there’s something going wrong with the frog switching but I can’t work out what it is. 

If you have wired it the same the double slip which is working then it is just the setting of the route that is your problem. You may need to switch 'the other' motor even though you are not using the route it sets.
 

[paul northcott]

Thank you Meil, Appreciated. I did spot this one on my trawl through, there’s quite a lengthy piece in there which to be honest was above my head. The original poster has said he replaced Seep with Cobalt digital, which solved his problem. Im using Cobalt analogue and I still have a problem. Im speaking to DCC Supplies but I dint think they know the answer. Im absolutely sure I’m all wired up correctly, I’ve checked it so many times. 

[mikeg]

Paul, I solved the problem with frog juicers. I think that the switching of the frogs by the motors restricts the routes through the layout but juicers correct the frog polarity even if the point is wrongly set but on my layout most of my locos just change the blades! 

Regards Mike 

[Barry Ten]

5 hours ago, Free At Last said:

If you have wired it the same the double slip which is working then it is just the setting of the route that is your problem. You may need to switch 'the other' motor even though you are not using the route it sets.
 

 

Agreed, this one caught me out when wiring my first single slip as well.

[ISW]

10 hours ago, paul northcott said:

Has any one had this same issue and come up with a solution? 
thank you in advance. 

Paul,

 

This problem had me scratching my head a few years back when I was wiring my first ladder of double-slips.  It's much easier to understand if you split the ladder into a series of crossovers (pairs of turnouts). Then you simply operate 'pairs of turnouts' together to obtain your desired route.

 

Here is your photo marked up with the 3-pairs of crossovers (1A/B, 2A/B & 3A/B and a single turnout 4). Yes, one of the slips becomes operated as a turnout and half a crossover, and your turnout becomes a crossover with another half of a slip:

 

When you move the 'turnout' switches, the polarity of the corresponding frog has to be switched. All the frogs are marked up as well.

Yes, you do end up appearing to route some 'impossible' manoeuvres at the single slips, but this method will ensure you don't have any shorts (well, it should), so you will need your 'mimic panel' to clearly show the valid routes. There may be 'cleverer' methods but this worked for me as it was logical and easy to implement (on your ladder I'd have just 4 push buttons).

 

If you need any further details I can send you information relating to the Leicester Line Junction (3 single-slips, 4 double-slips, & 1 turnout) of my layout, the underboard wiring (servo operated), and the mimic panel (MegaPoints MultiPanel operated).

 

I hope this helps.

 

Ian

[DCCconcepts]

23 hours ago, paul northcott said:

Thank you Meil, Appreciated. I did spot this one on my trawl through, there’s quite a lengthy piece in there which to be honest was above my head. The original poster has said he replaced Seep with Cobalt digital, which solved his problem. Im using Cobalt analogue and I still have a problem. Im speaking to DCC Supplies but I dint think they know the answer. Im absolutely sure I’m all wired up correctly, I’ve checked it so many times. 

 

Hi Paul,

We have replied to your email. We concur with others that it is most likely a routeing issue with the single slip creating a short because the "unused" blades/motor are in the incorrect position.

A single slip - with motor operated frog switching - has to be operated as if it were a double slip.

 

Best Regards.

The DCCconcepts Team

 

[paul northcott]

On 02/07/2021 at 20:43, ISW said:

Paul,

 

This problem had me scratching my head a few years back when I was wiring my first ladder of double-slips.  It's much easier to understand if you split the ladder into a series of crossovers (pairs of turnouts). Then you simply operate 'pairs of turnouts' together to obtain your desired route.

 

Here is your photo marked up with the 3-pairs of crossovers (1A/B, 2A/B & 3A/B and a single turnout 4). Yes, one of the slips becomes operated as a turnout and half a crossover, and your turnout becomes a crossover with another half of a slip:

 

When you move the 'turnout' switches, the polarity of the corresponding frog has to be switched. All the frogs are marked up as well.

Yes, you do end up appearing to route some 'impossible' manoeuvres at the single slips, but this method will ensure you don't have any shorts (well, it should), so you will need your 'mimic panel' to clearly show the valid routes. There may be 'cleverer' methods but this worked for me as it was logical and easy to implement (on your ladder I'd have just 4 push buttons).

 

If you need any further details I can send you information relating to the Leicester Line Junction (3 single-slips, 4 double-slips, & 1 turnout) of my layout, the underboard wiring (servo operated), and the mimic panel (MegaPoints MultiPanel operated).

 

I hope this helps.

 

Ian

Thank you Ian, that’s really helpful, makes a whole lot of sense. I had never thought of it like that. So, would you switch 3A and 3B (for example) from one switch? Apologies for the response to your note, but I was away at the weekend without access to rmweb. 

[paul northcott]

On 03/07/2021 at 12:12, DCCconcepts said:

 

Hi Paul,

We have replied to your email. We concur with others that it is most likely a routeing issue with the single slip creating a short because the "unused" blades/motor are in the incorrect position.

A single slip - with motor operated frog switching - has to be operated as if it were a double slip.

 

Best Regards.

The DCCconcepts Team

 

Hi, thanks yes, I have seen your email. I may have to rethink the way I switch the motors, Ian’s reply in here about treating them as several scissors crossings makes sense to me, I will just have to work through how to do this with the switches I am using. 

[ISW]

8 hours ago, paul northcott said:

Thank you Ian, that’s really helpful, makes a whole lot of sense. I had never thought of it like that. So, would you switch 3A and 3B (for example) from one switch? Apologies for the response to your note, but I was away at the weekend without access to rmweb. 

Paul,

Indeed I would, and I did. Here is a photo of my mimic panel for the Leicester Line Junction of my layout:

 

As you can probably work out, where there are single-slips it is 'possible' to set a route through the 'wrong' side of the slip, and if I do this I get a short as the train wheels contact the crossing frog. I just have to be careful to only set 'valid' routes. But since the layout is based on the 'real' Leicester Line Junction, all the necessary routes exist. Route setting is quick and easy and the green LEDs give confirmation of the route(s) set.

 

Ian