RMweb Premium Andy Keane Posted September 6, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 6, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, John Brenchley said: Hi Andy Thanks for your kind comments on the Tavistock goods shed model. The only information I can find about cranes in goods yards comes from the publication "Great Western Way" which states on page 169 of the 2009 edition that "Cranes, where installed, were medium grey". Hopefully, this helps, though I'm not sure of the definition of "medium grey". Best wishes John John, I saw this in GW Way but equally there a good few photos showing interior goods shed cranes in white with black metalwork. I wonder if the book really just means external yard cranes? Along these sort of lines: https://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=663&forum_id=14 and http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3043812 For the moment I am going black and white which seems more in tune with GWR shed interiors but am aware the links above are not to GWR sheds? Also I have to confess my crane (as per my thread) is really a very approximate representation! regards Andy ps - have now found a picture in "GWR Branch Line Modelling" by S williams that supports the grey colour all over but it appears to be quite a dark colour, though it is a B&W photo - ho hum. Edited September 6, 2021 by Andy Keane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley Jim Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 3 hours ago, CF MRC said: Somewhere between light and dark? Half way, I would say! Jim 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted September 8, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 8, 2021 I'm not with my books right now, but black and white would surprise me a bit. I've only ever seen grey, or a dark uniform shade for the timber cranes. Are the photos you've seen from GWR sheds? Otherwise I think you're safe with the famous "medium grey". 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post John Brenchley Posted October 2, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted October 2, 2021 (edited) Progress on the Water Tank I've been rather slow in making progress with the water tank while I looked for more pictures on the internet and had discussions and help from members on the GWR Forum on Groups.io I had decided quite early on that the tank at Tavistock did not have a lid but was uncertain as to what the fittings looked like inside the tank. Photographs of a similar tank at Minehead helped but there was a distinct lack of useful pictures taken from above. I therefore had to make a few guesses on the appearance and fixing of the water level wheel / float and the operating arm pivot. In the end I cobbled together various bits and pieces from left over scrap etches and parts I had bought many years ago. For the wheel over which the float chain ran, I used one of the wheels from an old Ultima Models etch of assorted brake wheels, choosing the 16" diameter one as being about the correct size based on my measurements of photographs. I trapped it between two pieces of spare etch and threaded a piece of wire through them all. then fixed it with super glue to an indent I had cut near the top of the inside of the tank. I had no idea what shape or size the float should be but opted to use the head of one of my wife's dress making pins, glued in a hole cut in the circular piece of plastic that I was using near the top of the tank to represent the water surface. I thin piece of thread, hardened with super glue was used to represent the chain and it was attached to the top of the float and run over the wheel before being attached to a small piece of scrap brass filed into a round shape to act as the weight on the outside end of the chain. The operating arm was also made from a scrap piece of etch, sandwiched between two spare wagon V hangers to represent a support framework. They were spread apart and the ends glued to the inside of the tank top roughly opposite the depth gauge. A small etched ring was attached to the end of the operating arm and another piece of thread to represent the long operating chain will be glued to the bottom of the ring after painting is complete. Below is the tank with a spray of undercoat, temporarily placed in position on the layout. From this angle, the entry to the goods yard can be seen and the start of the backdrop of trees that I have been working on. Comparison of the first pictures of the tank posted a few weeks ago will show that the bracket has been thinned down a bit and I have also added a strengthening wire as pictures of most tanks, including the one at Tavistock seemed to show that these were needed to help support the weight of the pipe. Next I need to paint the tank in light stone, with dark stone at the base of the column, add the etched ladder that came with the Ratio kit and then make it all look slightly faded and dirty. A fire devil will also be needed - one came with the kit but it looks rather coarse and overscale so I'll try scratch building one. Best wishes John Edited April 6, 2022 by John Brenchley 13 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted October 2, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 2, 2021 I reckon that the tank fittings look to be pretty good. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brenchley Posted October 2, 2021 Author Share Posted October 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said: I reckon that the tank fittings look to be pretty good. Thanks very much As the person who first posted to explain how the depth gauge worked, its good to get your comment. Best wishes John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWCR Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 Such water tanks often did have a lid, this would be just two or three pieces of steel angle or similar across the top supporting with wooden planks. A hatch was fitted at the point the ladder goes to for access. Over time the hatch could be missing along with some or most of the boards. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian Morgan Posted October 2, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 2, 2021 (edited) Would there not be an overflow pipe to prevent over-filling? Here is my attempt. I really must get around to fitting the outlet and hose on the wall so my Terriers can actually top up. However, this side is not normally visible. Edited April 5, 2022 by Ian Morgan Image reposted 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted October 2, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 2, 2021 Beautiful work as ever John. It's good to see I'm not the only one to use left over bits of wagon etches - a wonderful resource - more fool anyone who just throws them away! Jerry 9 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2mm Andy Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 I didn't realise S&DJR water towers had moats around them like medieval castles.... Andy 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brenchley Posted October 3, 2021 Author Share Posted October 3, 2021 17 hours ago, IWCR said: Such water tanks often did have a lid, this would be just two or three pieces of steel angle or similar across the top supporting with wooden planks. A hatch was fitted at the point the ladder goes to for access. Over time the hatch could be missing along with some or most of the boards. Pete That's very interesting thanks Pete. Looking at the aerial photograph from 1928, I did wonder if there was some sort of frame or partial cover but the image wasn't clear enough to be certain. Even one of the much later pictures taken from ground level seems to show something overhanging the top of the tank near the ladder, but I had no idea what it might be. I think I'm going to assume that it is all missing unless I can find pictures from which I could base an addition to the model - its something that would be easy to add at a later time though. Best wishes John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brenchley Posted October 3, 2021 Author Share Posted October 3, 2021 16 hours ago, Ian Morgan said: Would there not be an overflow pipe to prevent over-filling? Here is my attempt. I really must get around to fitting the outlet and hose on the wall so my Terriers can actually top up. However, this side is not normally visible. Hi Ian An overflow pipe is an interesting thought but how would it work in a pillar tank - where does the overflowing water go? Also just out of interest, how did water get into the tank in the first place - pumped from a source nearby presumably , but was it pumped up through the center of the pillar (probably not as many similar tanks were on top of a steel section frame) or through a hose just temporarily hung into the tank? Not really relevant to the model but just a bit of extra general knowledge is always interesting. Best wishes John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brenchley Posted October 3, 2021 Author Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) Thanks Ian and Jerry for showing your water tanks - lovely models. I'll be picking your brains when it comes to building a similar one of my own. Tavistock was well endowered with water sources - a simple pillar supply near the main signal box, the one I am now making near the goods shed and a large rectangular tank on 4 metal legs sited near the turntable. I won't get round to that one till after the next baseboard is built but I'll be looking for ideas on how best to build the tank - etched (don't let Henk see that word) or maybe 3d printed - at least this tank clearly has a roof. Best wishes John Edited April 6, 2022 by John Brenchley 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted October 3, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 3, 2021 You can see the water level marker quite well on the side of the tank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 3, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 3, 2021 5 hours ago, John Brenchley said: Thanks Ian and Jerry for showing your water tanks - lovely models. I'll be picking your brains when it comes to building a similar one of my own. Tavistock was well endowered with water sources - a simple pillar supply near the main signal box, the one I am now making near the goods shed and a large rectangular tank on 4 metal legs sited near the turntable. I won't get round to that one till after the next baseboard is built but I'll be looking for ideas on how best to build the tank - etched (don't let Henk see that word) or maybe 3d printed - at least this tank clearly has a roof. Best wishes John 3d Print for the main tank with etching for the details would seem to be the way forward for this tank. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2mm Andy Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 11 hours ago, John Brenchley said: Hi Ian An overflow pipe is an interesting thought but how would it work in a pillar tank - where does the overflowing water go? Also just out of interest, how did water get into the tank in the first place - pumped from a source nearby presumably , but was it pumped up through the center of the pillar (probably not as many similar tanks were on top of a steel section frame) or through a hose just temporarily hung into the tank? Not really relevant to the model but just a bit of extra general knowledge is always interesting. Best wishes John I think the incoming water would go up through the centre of the supporting pillar - refilling from a temporary hose wouldn't really be workable (you'd be doing it after every 2 or 3 locos used the tank potentially). Where there was a steel stanchion supporting the tanks it appears to be a sort of fabricated 'box' section so the water supply pipe must run up the middle (fixing a leak must have been fun!); https://locoyard.com/2012/08/12/didcot-railway-centre/029-didcot-railway-centre-didcot-halt-water-tower/ Incidentally, there are drawings for few different types of GWR "fire grates" for water cranes in Great Western Journal number 4. Unfortunately the drawing is reproduced to quite a small scale and it's not very easy to see the dimensions on it. Andy 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBS Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 16 hours ago, John Brenchley said: Thanks Ian and Jerry for showing your water tanks - lovely models. I'll be picking your brains when it comes to building a similar one of my own. Tavistock was well endowered with water sources - a simple pillar supply near the main signal box, the one I am now making near the goods shed and a large rectangular tank on 4 metal legs sited near the turntable. I won't get round to that one till after the next baseboard is built but I'll be looking for ideas on how best to build the tank - etched (don't let Henk see that word) or maybe 3d printed - at least this tank clearly has a roof. Best wishes John John, Lovely work. My water tank at Totnes was, IIRC, constructed of that new-fangled material, reinforced concrete, during the 1930s. I made mine out of mount board with thin card overlays, sanded and painted, and with etched brass and wire details - gauge, ladder and guard rails. I don’t think that GWR painted the concrete. Attached is a photo. 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brenchley Posted October 4, 2021 Author Share Posted October 4, 2021 12 hours ago, 2mm Andy said: I think the incoming water would go up through the centre of the supporting pillar - refilling from a temporary hose wouldn't really be workable (you'd be doing it after every 2 or 3 locos used the tank potentially). Where there was a steel stanchion supporting the tanks it appears to be a sort of fabricated 'box' section so the water supply pipe must run up the middle (fixing a leak must have been fun!); https://locoyard.com/2012/08/12/didcot-railway-centre/029-didcot-railway-centre-didcot-halt-water-tower/ Incidentally, there are drawings for few different types of GWR "fire grates" for water cranes in Great Western Journal number 4. Unfortunately the drawing is reproduced to quite a small scale and it's not very easy to see the dimensions on it. Andy Thanks Andy I have issue 4 so will have a look at that and see if i can get the size approximately correct Best wishes John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post John Brenchley Posted October 9, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted October 9, 2021 (edited) I haven't made any progress with the water tank this week (must get the paints out), but thought I would continue with posting some notes and pictures of structures that have already been finished and installed on the layout. Sundry Goods Yard Buildings The goods yard at Tavistock included many buildings used mostly by independent merchants ie wool merchants, timber stores, agricultural suppliers and coal merchants as well as the small GWR built stables. To quote Anthony Kingdom who wrote many books on the line:- "Of the remaining buildings within the station complex, some, such as the old workshops, remained as original but by the time of our journey many ugly prefabricated buildings had sprung up. These were often in a poorer state of repair than many of the older counterparts." I suspect his visits were in the 1960's so luckily, the "ugly prefabricated buildings" did not exist during the earlier period that I am modelling. On the main baseboard that I have been working on, I needed to include the woolsheds and stables that were sited at the back of the yard. Below is a collection of pictures showing them at various time between 1911 and the 1960's The top two pictures are the earliest and show that the wool stores initially comprised two corrugated iron sheds but it was only later that a third was added. They also show a lack of skylights so I am assuming these were later additions. The top right was also the only picture I found that could confirm the existence of a window on the left side wall of the stables. The middle right photo was most useful in giving a view of the stables and confirming that it was similar to many other stables that the GWR built. The bottom left picture helped to show the internal framework of the doors which encouraged me to model two of them open. Lastly, the bottom right picture from GWRJ was useful in giving a colour for the wool sheds. Of course this was in late BR times but I liked the faded green look so chose to keep it for my own version of the sheds. I chose to tackle the stables first and found useful pictures in the books by Steven Williams and also in the much older publication " A pictorial History of Great Western Architecture" which also had scale drawings. This was my first model where I departed from the use of embossed plastic as I chose to try out the printed bricks that are available to download from Scalescenes. Its a while ago that I built the model but I suspect I used either Red Brick or Dark Red Brick but I do remember that I used washes of water colour over the top to tone down the colour delivered by my printer. For the windows I used the Cobol sheet sold at one time by the Association shops. For the glazing bars I used the method of scribing them on the sheet and then filling the scribe marks with paint. Care has to be taken in removing excess paint as the clear plastic scratches very easily. Roof slates are again from the range supplied on a printed label sheet under the name ClearSolutions (marketed by Ian Barefoot). The wool sheds were built from thick card with an overlay of corrugated iron. This was made from aluminium BBQ trays. To create the corrugations, deep parallel lines were first scribed in a thick sheet of plastic, then a roller ball pen was used to press the aluminium into the scribed indents. The doors were made from plastic sheet and strip. Best wishes John Edited April 6, 2022 by John Brenchley 14 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted October 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 9, 2021 (edited) Excellent buildings. I have often wondered about the ownership arrangements of merchant's structures like these on railway land. I assume they paid to be there, but I wonder what the terms were. And who owned and maintained the structures. I assume the merchant's did, but would there have been cases where a merchant went out of business and the structure was taken over by someone else, or even by the GWR itself... I have looked for such info in some of the GWRJ station articles I have, but no luck yet. Edited October 9, 2021 by Mikkel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brenchley Posted October 9, 2021 Author Share Posted October 9, 2021 15 minutes ago, Mikkel said: I have often wondered about the ownership arrangements of merchant's structures like these on railway land. I assume they paid to be there, but I wonder what the terms were. And who owned and maintained the structures. I assume the merchant's did, but would there have been cases where a merchant went out of business and the structure was taken over by someone else, or even by the GWR itself... Thanks Mikkel Although there are extensive comments on the various merchants that operated at both Tavistock stations in the excellent article in GWRJ Issue 17, it is not clear who owned what. My gut feeling is that non railway sheds such as those used for the wool storage might have been owned and maintained by the merchants with maybe a rent paid to the railway for use of the land. However the article also refers to Levers who handled agricultural supplies and says "Levers were accommodated in a corrugated iron pagoda shed at the south end of the goods shed, and later in the former stables". Since I think both these buildings would be of GWR origin, maybe they were just rented to Levers, rather than owned by them. Best wishes John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brenchley Posted November 20, 2021 Author Share Posted November 20, 2021 (edited) I seem to have had several projects on the go at the same time recently including finishing off the water tank, continuing with the vegetation at the front of the layout and starting one of the two etched kits I have bought for the 6 ton yard cranes. The first project to be completed was the water tank with a close up picture below. The main change since I last posted has been painting the model in GWR light and dark stone colours (using the RailMatch range of paints), followed by weathering with washes of "roof dirt" and dry brushing with a variety of paints mixed to rust colours. Thread has been used to represent the chains and the etched ladder is now fixed in place. The fire devil has also been scratch built from bits of scrap brass - I initially tried plastic but it wasn't strong enough nor delicate enough in appearance. The legs have ended up slightly shorter than they should be but I had so much difficulty soldering them all on that I'm not going to try changing them now and once painted and located on the layout, its not really going to be noticed. Finally, a view from the other side. In both pictures, the unpainted crane can be seen (I'll post some construction notes as I build the second one). This one is complete apart from deciding on the chain which is just placed loosely in position at the moment. The finest chain I could find was 40 links per inch whereas from counting links on pictures, I think 70 per inch would be more correct. In effect, is is almost twice as large as it should be. So I have to make a decision. 1. I could take the view that the eye expects to see a chain so it is better to have a proper one even if it is overscale. 2. The alternative approach would be to say that scale size is the most important factor and some other representation of the correct thickness would be preferable, even if links can't be seen. i.e. something similar to the thread used to represent the even finer chain on the water tank. What do others think? (I have tried twisting wire together to try to create a chain appearance, but so far, haven't managed to achieve an acceptable result.) Best wishes John Edited April 6, 2022 by John Brenchley 12 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium CF MRC Posted November 20, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2021 True scale chain would be a good candidate for etching, albeit simplified, especially once chemically blacked. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brenchley Posted November 20, 2021 Author Share Posted November 20, 2021 An interesting idea Tim In the meantime, do you have any thoughts on whether I should stick with the overscale chain or replace it? John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Keane Posted November 20, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2021 Looking at the really nice photo halfway down the RMweb thread /Home/Modelling Zone/Modelling Questions, Help and Tips/GWR 6 Ton Yard Crane for 4mm/ it is clear the real chain is way finer, so I would tend to vote for using thread rather than chain. I know it sounds mad but have you thought of spotting a thread with a different light colour paint? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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