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Tavistock (GWR)


John Brenchley
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Having struggled to get suitable fine wire for the two cranes I’ve made you have my sympathy. Chain finer than 42 links seems unavailable but it does seem a bit too heavy for what is required. I’d persevere with the braided wire some more. I found a boat site where for 1/700 scale it was said to be better than alternatives such as etching. Apparently 4 strands of enamelled wire. Not sure how it’s done, around pins etc. Can’t seem to post a link I’m afraid. I just searched for 70 link per inch chain. 

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This link (no pun intended) takes you to a site listing 45 and 50 links-per-inch chain at $6 per metre:  I came across it whilst looking for something else.  I've never ordered from them and it is in US but it's the smallest chain I've seen anywhere:  https://floatingdrydock.com/more.htm.  Might be worth a try as the model is looking really good and a finer chain would be the finishing touch!  Great model altogether, I've been enjoying looking in from time to time, it's hard to believe it's 2mm/ft.

 

Kit PW

Swan Hill - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/

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N brass locos list chain at 48links/in. I think it is very similar to some that Fleetline used to market. I’ve used the Fleetline stuff for securing chains on a number of wagons and think it looks okay. 
 

 

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6 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

N brass locos list chain at 48links/in. I think it is very similar to some that Fleetline used to market. I’ve used the Fleetline stuff for securing chains on a number of wagons and think it looks okay. 
 

 

Thanks Richard

 

I actually bought the N Brass chain at the same time as I bought the crane kits from them.  I also bought some chain that I found advertised on the internet as 1:700 anchor chain.  This came from China and seems marginally thinner than the N Brass chain but has the same number of links per inch.  I think I mistyped 40 per inch in an earlier post  - either way, the chain is still over scale.

 

Best wishes

 

John

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11 hours ago, kitpw said:

This link (no pun intended) takes you to a site listing 45 and 50 links-per-inch chain at $6 per metre:  I came across it whilst looking for something else.  I've never ordered from them and it is in US but it's the smallest chain I've seen anywhere:  https://floatingdrydock.com/more.htm.  Might be worth a try as the model is looking really good and a finer chain would be the finishing touch!  Great model altogether, I've been enjoying looking in from time to time, it's hard to believe it's 2mm/ft.

 

Kit PW

Swan Hill - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/

 

Thanks Kit PW

 

I've had a look at the site you mention, but suspect the chain may be very similar in size to that which I already have - the finest they list has a link length of 1.1mm which seems to be about the same - still likely to look overscale.  I think I model in too small a scale to get suitable chain for this type of crane.

 

Best wishes

 

John

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13 hours ago, Izzy said:

Having struggled to get suitable fine wire for the two cranes I’ve made you have my sympathy. Chain finer than 42 links seems unavailable but it does seem a bit too heavy for what is required. I’d persevere with the braided wire some more. I found a boat site where for 1/700 scale it was said to be better than alternatives such as etching. Apparently 4 strands of enamelled wire. Not sure how it’s done, around pins etc. Can’t seem to post a link I’m afraid. I just searched for 70 link per inch chain. 

 

Thanks Izzy

 

Is that the Ship Model Forum?

 

I found that and a modeler there (David Griffith) refers to the braided wire technique as described in his book - unfortunately not much help without the book and he doesn't expand on the method in the forum posts.

 

Best wishes

 

John

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Yes, that’s it John. I did find the ship he referred to, HMAS Sydney, in the gallery, although I couldn’t say how now, where he mentions the 4 strands of wire somewhere. It must be decent because he apparently won a gold medal with it at Telford, whatever that means. But yes, I think you are meant to buy the book he has written on making boats/ships …….   Hm, no easy answers are there!

 

Bob

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3 hours ago, Izzy said:

Yes, that’s it John. I did find the ship he referred to, HMAS Sydney, in the gallery, although I couldn’t say how now, where he mentions the 4 strands of wire somewhere. It must be decent because he apparently won a gold medal with it at Telford, whatever that means. But yes, I think you are meant to buy the book he has written on making boats/ships …….   Hm, no easy answers are there!

 

Bob

Hi Bob - do you have a link?  With the current HMAS Sydney being number 5 to bear the name, Google isn't being especially helpful, considering I'd imagine the model is of HMAS Sydney (II), the WWII era vessel which sank 80 years ago and has been in the news recently again out here as the only sailor who's body survived out of 645 souls to die when she was sunk in action was ID'd using DNA in time for the anniversary.  I'm trying to do something about tying down a traction engine but like John will be needing to do something about yard cranes (from the same source as his).

 

Cheers

Kevin

 

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2 hours ago, Sithlord75 said:

Hi Bob - do you have a link?  With the current HMAS Sydney being number 5 to bear the name, Google isn't being especially helpful, considering I'd imagine the model is of HMAS Sydney (II), the WWII era vessel which sank 80 years ago and has been in the news recently again out here as the only sailor who's body survived out of 645 souls to die when she was sunk in action was ID'd using DNA in time for the anniversary.  I'm trying to do something about tying down a traction engine but like John will be needing to do something about yard cranes (from the same source as his).

 

Cheers

Kevin

 

 

Hi Kevin,

Managed to find a link, well here's hoping it works....

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/cl/hmas/sydney-700-dg/dg-index.html

He talks about using stripped Hi-fi wire strands forming a 'sinnet'. I've used copper enamelled wire for my recent yard crane and single strands to wind for handrail knobs on my N7/3 but this another ball game altogether...

 

Bob

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I've tried several means of representing fine chain using single strands from bell wire or some 4-strand cotton covered enamelled wire I have.  Looping a length round a small drill held in a pin vice, which is in turn mounted vertically in a bench vice, and then tying loose thumb knots in the wire produced the chain holding the hook to the bottom of one leg of my derrick crane, but that length was about as much as I could make before the wire broke.

 

681927811_goodsyard30.JPG.b74bde9b180f4718e4b83fffbc443798.JPG

 

I managed to produce longer lengths to hold the load on my CR Dia 80 swivel wagon by soldering the ends of three lengths together and then platting them.

 

 

1690074141_Dia80swivelwagon.JPG.397698a568e3a4157881dac47e3698f7.JPG

Neither produce proper 'chain', but I think it's about making something which convinces your visual perception (eyes + brain) that it is chain.  As Mike Raithby once said, we are in business of impressionism.

 

Jim

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22 hours ago, Izzy said:

He talks about using stripped Hi-fi wire strands forming a 'sinnet'. 

 

I found the same site and then tried tonfind what a sinnet is:

https://www.animatedknots.com/four-strand-square-sinnet-knota

 

Haven't tried it yet and I found the animation a bit hard to follow.

Later on in the animation they show the end-on view which is better.

 

Jan

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Thanks for the helpful comments Izzy, Jim and Jan

 

That small bit of chain looks very good Jim.

 

Jan - I also Google the Sinnet style but it looks a bit complicated and I wonder how easy it would be particularly if the wire was a bit stiff like phosphor bronze.

 

Was the wire you used softer Jim and what thickness was it?

 

Best wishes

 

John

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1 hour ago, Jan W said:

I found the same site and then tried tonfind what a sinnet is:

The 'chain sinnet' looks like what I learned in the Scouts as a chain knot.  I tried this with wire, but it quickly became work hardened and fractures, which is the problem with the thumb knot technique I used.  The 4 strand sinnets and French sinnets are just variations on 4 strand platting - done in the same way as three strand I assume (didn't watch the animations).  Platting doesn't work harden the wire in the same way as knotting as you are not bending the wire to the same degree.

 

39 minutes ago, John Brenchley said:

That small bit of chain looks very good Jim.

 

Was the wire you used softer Jim and what thickness was it?

Thanks, John.  The wire I used in that case was single strands from the 4-strand cotton covered varnished wire I have.  No idea where it came from, but the 4 strands + cotton covering measure c.19mm with a small micrometer I have, so each strand must be around .04-.05mm.  I used single strands from copper bell wire for the chain on the swivel wagon and that is .14mm.

 

I did try 4thou p/b wire once, but even after annealing it was too stiff and brittle to make any useful length.

 

Jim

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Thanks Jim

 

This time difference is a nuisance - I'd gone to bed without seeing your reply - no chance of a sensible question and answer conversation.

 

Can you clarify what you mean by a "thumb knot" please ( is it like the first of the two knots in a reef knot?) and how you used the drill - was it a case of twisting/knotting the wire round the drill, then moving the drill along and twisting again, ie making one loop at a time?

 

Thanks

 

John

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9 hours ago, John Brenchley said:

Can you clarify what you mean by a "thumb knot" please ( is it like the first of the two knots in a reef knot?) and how you used the drill - was it a case of twisting/knotting the wire round the drill, then moving the drill along and twisting again, ie making one loop at a time?

Yes, John.  One half of a reef knot.  I just used the drill to be a 'post' to hold the wire. Wrapped it round the drill, then, using two sets of tweezers, tied a series of thumb knots, but not pulling them tight against one another so as to leave a small loop. If you always tie them the same way, right over left (or left over right), then each loop is at right angles to the one before.  I suppose you could use another drill or length of wire as a 'spacer' to get the loops consistent.  I wasn't that fussy!  It's one of these things that is easier to do than describe.  As I said, you only get so far before the wire breaks!

 

HTH

 

Jim

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The Yard Crane

 

As mentioned in my recent post on the finished water tank, I have now built one of the two GWR 6-ton yard cranes that existed at one time in the Tavistock goods yard, just needing to sort out a suitable size chain before painting it.

 

The evidence for there being two cranes is very clear from the aerial photograph from the Britain From Above website which is dated 1928.  Later photographs perhaps only show one crane, but as the model is set sometime in the mid to late 1930’s, I decided that two cranes were still appropriate.

The kits are sold by N Brass Locos and include a beautifully delicate piece of etch, various thicknesses of wire plus two brass castings for the main support column and for the cable winding drum.

 

1790194167_PA100106cropped.jpg.2e8641a771b65af3d3c6100406e65037.jpg

 

My understanding is that the etch is based on one originally designed by Julia Adams for her model Highcleres. A couple of pictures of her crane can be seen via this link. https://modelopolis.blogspot.com/2013/01

 

I suspect that some changes were made to Julia’s design as the N Brass Locos etch includes one or two extra elements not apparent on her model but also excludes some parts and at the same time it appears to have introduced some errors, mostly minor but some more significant.

 

Julia also sent me several pictures she had taken of the crane at Fawley, and they have been invaluable in helping me understand what the completed model should look like. Hopefully she won’t mind if I include on or two of them to help illustrate this post.

 

Detailed drawings of the crane were published in the preview issue of Great Western Railway Journal, and these have also been really helpful.

 

I decided to start with the jib and was delighted to find that holding the parts against a photocopy of the drawing reduced to 2mm scale gave a perfect match for size and angle.

 

As can be seen from the picture of the etch above, the sides and top of the jib come attached by a couple of tiny tabs, with the base being a separate piece. The instructions suggest that the sides can be bent up and then soldered to the top but in practice, I found the tabs were so flimsy that even one bend caused the parts to separate. In practice, this was a good thing as it enabled me to solder the sides slightly inset on the top, allowing creation of the outward facing L shaped framework which would not otherwise have been possible.

 

2113415248_PB240126edited.jpg.a5cf59a8a95b9ff754b7be71b52faff7.jpg

 

The light is reflecting rather strongly in the above picture, but I think it should still be possible to see the L shape in places.

 

One error in the instructions is that they say to cut off the lower ends of both the top and bottom pieces where they extend past the lowest cross bar. This would have the effect of removing the webbing from the L where it is fixed to the outside of the crane base but from Julia’s pictures below it is clear that it should only be removed from the top layer of the jib, not the bottom. In the picture above, I forgot to remove the ends from the top but have done so later on.

 

1295797592_IMG_9178edited2.jpg.95bfddb3835f0095312a20501bf6a857.jpg

 

Another error that is apparent from the above pictures is that the lowest cross pieces are etched too near the base of the jib and prevent it fitting sufficiently far overlapped over the base of the crane. Also missing is the lowest crisscross framing on the base piece of the jib.

 

I therefore removed both the top and bottom cross bars, replacing the lower one with a thin strip of 5 thou nickel silver fitted higher up and also adding two more strips to form the crisscross. They are a little thicker than those of the etch but will be so low down on the jib that this shouldn’t be too apparent.

 

The finished version of the jib for the second crane is below. I still need to add the pully wheels and the chain protection bracket.

 

275891310_PB260127edited.jpg.17c6ce996e3d3f76d004cea02ca5ec68.jpg

 

I’ll take picture as progress continues with the base of the second crane and post later on.

 

Best wishes

 

John

 

Edited by John Brenchley
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The Yard Crane (2)

 

Before commencing on construction of the crane body, I had one main concern that had arisen from reading two reviews that had been written up in N Scale Society magazines by modellers who had built the kit.

 

In both reviews, the comment was made that they could not get the ends of the jib to fit outside the body of the crane. If one modeller had had this problem, I might have put it down to an error in construction but for two people to have the same issue, was cause for concern.

 

I went back to the drawings in GWRJ and found an inside dimension for the crane body of 2’ 10 ¾”. Allowing for the thickness of the metal sides, an approximate dimension of 3’ seemed likely i.e. 6mm in our scale. Measuring between the end of the jib that I had already put together came out at about 6.15mm so I was happy enough that this had been built correctly.

 

The etch is designed for the floor and sides to fold up into a U shape from a single piece but when I did this, I found that the external width measured about 8.2mm, clearly 2mm too wide.

 

Looking at the pictures on Julia’s website, her crane body looked to have the correct proportions, but it could also be seen that her sides were soldered to a separate floor piece, not folded from a single etch. I haven’t asked her, but my suspicion is that she did not etch these parts but cut them separately from sheet metal so when N Brass Locos wanted to market a complete kit, they had to add a crane body to the etch but somehow drew it 2mm too wide.

 

The left-hand picture below shows the relative width of the body compared with the jib ends

 

1217929069_PB280128edited.jpg.c819b068ca325b845c4f74ab0cb151e8.jpg

 

I definitely wanted the jib ends to fit outside the crane body, so my only option was to break the U shape apart, narrow the floor by 2mm and then solder the separate parts together. On the right is a picture I took at this stage in construction of the first crane. All the other etched cross members also had to be reduced by 2mm – it was much harder to hold it all together and solder squarely but worth it in the end.

 

I’m now about to repeat this process with the second crane so will post further pictures in due course.

 

Best wishes

 

John

Edited by John Brenchley
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14 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

Looks like whoever designed the kit for N-brass (and I don't mean Julia) didn't build a trial etch to check out the artwork.

 

Jim

I suspect you may be right Jim

It's a shame as this mars what is on the whole a very good etch

Best wishes

John

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The Yard Crane (3)

 

An aspect of the crane body that I thought quite prominent was the covers that existed on the inside of the body, presumably to protect the internal gears and wheels. Two of Julia’s pictures below show that they existed on both sides of the body.

 

426408611_IMG_9173edited2.jpg.889740e011bb0b092bb53e827d726cd9.jpg

 

They are quite noticeable on the pictures of Julia’s model, but the etched kit did not include any way of representing them and without them, I thought the inside of the body would look a bit too open.

 

Not really knowing the dimensions, it was all a bit of a guess, but I found the edges from left over wagon chassis etches were a bit over 1mm wide, so I used these to bend up suitable shapes as below.  Where the gaps were too wide to fill in with solder, I pushed in bits of brass rod and soldered round them as well.

 

740124962_PA280112combined.jpg.3fead941352daa07744b23e3726e2833.jpg

 

The above pictures show one of the covers soldered up for the first crane. As I had already soldered together the body sides, base and cross members for this crane, it was a bit tricky to install the covers and be sure they were in the correct places but its all a bit out of sight once the crane is finished so didn’t seem too important.

 

With the benefit of hindsight, the covers have been fitted to the sides of the second crane before they are soldered into the box shape as this makes them much easier to locate in place. I did try including a spare etched wheel in one of them, not very successfully so decided it wasn’t worth doing on the others, being almost invisible from most viewing angles.

 

1817413809_PC040130edited.jpg.116885118a521aabf3dbf5be21bfff56.jpg

 

The shape of  one of the covers on the right hand side isn't quite right as the hole isn't in the centre of the cover but it will be impossible to tell once all the other bits and pieces are added to the crane. And yes, one of the covers did overlap the sides slightly in real life – its not a soldering error!

 

Best wishes

 

John

Edited by John Brenchley
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It is perhaps worth pointing out that as well as etch scrap as has been used (very successfully) here, staples of various sizes can be a very useful source of suitable material, particularly as they bend (and straighten) easily and hold the shapes well - most will take solder readily but it is worth checking first as some may need lacquer to be removed.

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5 hours ago, bécasse said:

It is perhaps worth pointing out that as well as etch scrap as has been used (very successfully) here, staples of various sizes can be a very useful source of suitable material, particularly as they bend (and straighten) easily and hold the shapes well - most will take solder readily but it is worth checking first as some may need lacquer to be removed.

 

A useful recommendation thanks Becasse. It's something I must try to remember next time I can't find the right size strip of scrap metal.

Best wishes

John

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