Modifying Peco electrofrog points

[GWR-fan]

I have always previously used insulfrog points but have decided that my next layout will use the code 100 Streamline electrofrog variety.   My newly purchased points are unlike all the You-tube videos showing the preparation of Peco electrofrog points for digital operation or to simply improve the point for analogue operation.  The videos show a cut in the two closure rails with a bridging wire that needs to be removed to isolate the closure rail from the frog.  The underside of the points on the videos also show factory cutouts to enable bridging wires to be soldered to connect the adjacent stock and closure rails on each side.   My new points show a diagram which states to cut the bridging wires on the closure rails.  It also states that Peco points require no modification for digital operation.  Well,  the underside of my points do not have bridging wires where Peco indicates,  nor do the closure rails have cuts separating them from the frog.  

 

Thus,  unless Peco have altered their design but not their instructions,  I need to modify the plastic base of the point to bridge the adjacent stock and closure rails and secondly,  I need to place cuts in the closure rails close to the frog,  to isolate the frog and enable frog polarity to be changed.  The points have the latest packaging in a transparent plastic sleeve with a blue card backing.   Some retailers show Peco points in cardboard boxes but I believe that they are old stock.   

[Phil Parker]

Peco points will work fine without any modification. If you aren't convinced, lay one temporarily with a length of track from each end, add the two wires and run some trains. Don't nail the point down hard, then you can take it up again for use on the layout.

 

Assuming you are using reasonably new stock, the wheels will be fine enough that they won't touch both the stock and switch rail on the open side, which is what the modifications work around.

 

But, basically, try a test piece on a board and you'll be much happier.

[GWR-fan]

Many thanks.  Is the frog then not separately powered?

[JohnR]

46 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

Many thanks.  Is the frog then not separately powered?

 

If you lay the point without alteration, the frog is then powered via the switch rails making contact with the stock rails. 

[GWR-fan]

Basically then the closure rails and the frog are dependent on the mechanical tang  on the switch rail at the tie-bar end.  I had thought that bridging the stock and adjacent closure rails was to overcome any reliability issue with power at the mechanical connection.

 

While the electrofrog will work just fine out of the box,  I personally like the idea of bridging the stock and closure rails and independently switching frog polarity.

[Harlequin]

Some Peco Streamline parts use older tooling and may not have the gaps and links you are expecting to see - especially Code100.

 

Edit: P.S. I have not modified the Code75 turnouts on my test layout and they mostly work fine but occasionally a cat hair gets between the point blades and the stock rail creating a long dead spot. If I ever relay the track I will apply the standard mods.

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Harlequin

[smokebox]

Has the OP perhaps got the new Unifrog points?  That would explain why the underside of his points don't look like the youtube videos he refers to.   The new Unifrog points have a "U" in the part number.

[Retro_man]

Could you provide a photo of the top and bottom of the point please?

 

We did receive a batch of Peco code 100 pints in incorrect packaging a few years ago - i.e. electrofrog in insulfrog packets.

 

Steve

ex. Model Railway Imports

[jazzer]

I think a photo is necessary. Within the last two weeks I have bought a couple of Code 75 electro frog points which had the gaps ( or rathe holes ) in the plastic which enabled them to, be modified with no trouble at all.

[GWR-fan]

As requested several images.  Note no cutout in closure rails,  no bridging wires underneath,  no cutouts in plastic base to enable bridging stock and adjacent closure rails.   All points purchased (17 in all) have similar characteristics and sourced from multiple retailers. 

[newbryford]

The Peco Code 100 Y point has never had the gap added in the closure rails - unlike others in the range.

[GWR-fan]

Note in the above the frog is live with the closure rails.   The instructions state for a "switchable" frog then remove the bridging wires on the underside.  There are no bridging wires and the closure rails are solid.  For a switchable frog the closure rails would need to be cut. 

[GWR-fan]

4 minutes ago, newbryford said:

The Peco Code 100 Y point has never had the gap added in the closure rails - unlike others in the range.

 

Looks like you have solved the riddle.  It was a "Y" point received.    I am awaiting delivery of the remaining sixteen points.   A close up image of the retailer supplied images shows the cutout in the closure rails of the medium points purchased (not delivered as yet),  however the large left and right points (not delivered as yet) do not show any cut in the closure rails so would appear to be similar to the "Y" point received.

[GWR-fan]

After checking the images on Hattons website it appears that only the small and medium points had closure rail cutouts.

[DCB]

The current peco points really need frog switching added, they no longer have the power switching tags on the point blades and the blades don't make good enough contact for heavy loads,  I add frog switching to un modified point.  I had a tag break off one of the older points and the point blade burned at the end, melted the adjacent chairs and that was on DC.   Attempts to use an unmodified tag less point were a miserable failure.   I would not cut and re solder wires .  The swivel joint between blade and adjacent rail sometimes stops conducting  resulting in a dead point blade.  lots of people have this and  are unaware of it so they add pick ups and wire separate wagons etc.

[GWR-fan]

I found this old thread about whether to cut or not.

 

[Geep7]

I had the same when I came to build my OO layout with the large radius Y, and ended up cutting the gaps myself with a Dremel, so I could switch the frogs. Not sure i'd want to have to do it with the small Y though, there isn't much rail to play with.

[DCB]

1 hour ago, Geep7 said:

I had the same when I came to build my OO layout with the large radius Y, and ended up cutting the gaps myself with a Dremel, so I could switch the frogs. Not sure i'd want to have to do it with the small Y though, there isn't much rail to play with.

You don't need to cut wires to switch the frogs, I use separate micro switches operated by the point tie bar  in addition to the standard wiring. Th advantage of cutting the wires is to stop the "open" point blade being at the opposite polarity to the adjacent rail to stop a wheel bridging the gap and shorting out.  Even a momentary short will trip most DCC systems.   This is almost always due to too tight back to back issues, mainly Hornby.  Their plastic centre metal rim wheels from the1980s and pre 2000 loco wheels are invariably tight to gauge.  The loco wheels can be eased out but the coach wheels need to be binned.  Big advantage of not modifying the points is you don't ruin £15 worth of point when the Dremel slips or the soldering iron melts some rail chairs.  

[Geep7]

46 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

You don't need to cut wires to switch the frogs, I use separate micro switches operated by the point tie bar  in addition to the standard wiring. Th advantage of cutting the wires is to stop the "open" point blade being at the opposite polarity to the adjacent rail to stop a wheel bridging the gap and shorting out.  Even a momentary short will trip most DCC systems.   This is almost always due to too tight back to back issues, mainly Hornby.  Their plastic centre metal rim wheels from the1980s and pre 2000 loco wheels are invariably tight to gauge.  The loco wheels can be eased out but the coach wheels need to be binned.  Big advantage of not modifying the points is you don't ruin £15 worth of point when the Dremel slips or the soldering iron melts some rail chairs.  

You do need to cut the rails and/or wires if you want to bond the switch rail with the outer rail, which removes any possibility of shorts happening, plus makes them more reliable as you are no longer dependent on the switch blade from providing continuity of power. Admittedly this does then mean you will need to switch the frog polarity, which I will admit I am DCC and use frog juicers for.

 

When I add the bond from switch rail to outer rail, I do this on the underside of the point on the bottom of the rail, removings some of the webbing. This stops any melting of rail chairs, although I sometimes melt a bit of the sleeper if i'm not careful. Best to have the iron hot so you're in and out quick when soldering the wires on.