Tallpaul69 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 Calling All Peco Electrofrog Points experts:- I have a problem:- Background I have a commercially made round and round 00 gauge layout which was delivered a week ago and I have successfully installed, and got the three boards connected and levelled. Electrically the layout is operating fine via an NCE Power Cab, Cobalt iP Digital point motors and two Alpha Centrals for electrofrog point control. The layout builders tested all the track/points/ control systems prior to dismantling the layout and delivering to me by their own transport, carefully wrapped in bubble wrap and shrinkwrap. The Problem The electrics work fine except that on one crossover between the up and down main lines the point pair will change over correctly via the point motors but the one of the pair of points nearest the front of the layout is dead of traction power. I have tried with a number of different locos and approaching the point from all three directions, but it is consistently dead. All the surrounding tracks work correctly. I am guessing that there is a wiring fault under the point, but I have yet to investigate underneath the board. Hopefully there will be an obvious detached wire, but I would welcome readers' thoughts in case this is not the answer? Many thanks Best regards Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkersson Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 37 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said: Calling All Peco Electrofrog Points experts:- I have a problem:- Background I have a commercially made round and round 00 gauge layout which was delivered a week ago and I have successfully installed, and got the three boards connected and levelled. Electrically the layout is operating fine via an NCE Power Cab, Cobalt iP Digital point motors and two Alpha Centrals for electrofrog point control. The layout builders tested all the track/points/ control systems prior to dismantling the layout and delivering to me by their own transport, carefully wrapped in bubble wrap and shrinkwrap. The Problem The electrics work fine except that on one crossover between the up and down main lines the point pair will change over correctly via the point motors but the one of the pair of points nearest the front of the layout is dead of traction power. I have tried with a number of different locos and approaching the point from all three directions, but it is consistently dead. All the surrounding tracks work correctly. I am guessing that there is a wiring fault under the point, but I have yet to investigate underneath the board. Hopefully there will be an obvious detached wire, but I would welcome readers' thoughts in case this is not the answer? Many thanks Best regards Paul Is the dead spot at the frog with no short circuit? If so it could be the frog wire isn't wired up correctly, or has become detached You would be best to look under point at the wiring to see if anything is loose 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted July 8, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 8, 2021 Is it the whole point, a particular rail or just the frog? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 You'll get more questions before answers I'm afraid. I'm sorry that you find yourself fault-finding after only a week. If I built a layout which failed after that short time, I would be highly embarrassed so I wonder what the builders would say if you contacted them? Can you describe which parts of the point are dead? A multimeter would be very useful here. If you don't have one, a cheapie from a DIY store will be fine. They all have a resistance meter, which is what would be best here. Some of them have a continuity beep, which is even better. Without a meter, you'll be making guesses. I will assume you don't know much about how an Electrofrog point is designed, or else you will have built the layout yourself. My apologies if this is stuff you already know. My 'unmodified' image shows an electrofrog point as it comes. It picks up power from the toe end of the point & one of the blades touches the rails (in this case the top one, which I have marked in red. This then feeds power to the frog. Many of us modify our Electrofrog points. Peco have made this easier by providing 2 small link wires under the rails which need to be cut. The blades are then wired to the stock rails. My 'modified' image shows how the point gets split up. The blue & red sections are always live, leaving the yellow part dead. This needs to be fed from a switch. Put a probe of the multimeter on a section of rail & test the track in places around the point. You should find places which are connected & others which are not. Now do the same for the opposite rail & test places around the point. If you have a dead section, you should find places which have no connection to either rail (& hopefully this will be the bit I have marked in yellow). Have your points been used 'modified' or 'unmodified'? If they have been used 'modified', do you know what switches have been used to provide frog power? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 3 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said: I have a commercially made round and round 00 gauge layout which was delivered a week ago As it likely cost a lot of money, and has only very recently been made/delivered, your first step is to get back in touch with the builder & get them to come & sort it for you, not go messing about with it yourself, or trying to get 3rd-party diagnosis on here!! 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 I concur but checks with continuity tester would not do any harm and will help the diagnosis. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted July 8, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) If "unmodified" check if there's something preventing one of the point blades making contact with the stock rail. Maybe an errant bit of ballast, flock or static grass got in there when the layout was moved. Edited July 8, 2021 by Harlequin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallpaul69 Posted July 8, 2021 Author Share Posted July 8, 2021 To answer the three sets of questions:- 1) Visual inspection of wiring (see attached photos), looks ok. 2) The whole point is dead for traction. 3) a) I sent an email to the builders, before I posted this, they replied before i read the replies to this post, and i have just updated them on my visual inspection including copies of the above photos. b) Will come back on this tomorrow when I have has a chance to run the meter over the point to confirm my answer to point 2) above. c) Points are modified, frog power provided by the switches on the Cobalt iP Digital motors (see attached photos). Frog wires are green. Thanks for your input guys! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 It looks like they have done a tidy job. I would expect anybody who does work like that to take pride in their product & want you to be happy with it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallpaul69 Posted July 9, 2021 Author Share Posted July 9, 2021 Testing with a meter has produced the expected results. My latest thoughts, are that I think there is a short circuit somewhere around the point, rather than a fault with the switch on the point motor. I have noticed that when the wheels of a loco reach either of the ends of the point (coming from the left) or the break in the frog (coming from the right), the loco cuts out and the red light on the NCE socket panel goes out. I have carefully inspected the area around the frog on this point and on those in the other crossovers but cannot see anything different on this point. I have emailed this observation to the builders and await further feedback from them. They have responded promptly with suggestions to each of my emails. I think they are trying to resolve this without having to visit because of Covid. In the past they installed the layouts they made, but concerns over the virus lead them to decide to stop installing until things return to normal. I understand this as the virus level here is above the England average. Thanks to all for their input, Best regards Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted July 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2021 Are the feed wires to the point somehow reversed? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallpaul69 Posted July 9, 2021 Author Share Posted July 9, 2021 2 hours ago, Gilbert said: Are the feed wires to the point somehow reversed? Can you explain in more detail what you mean? Do you mean the locomotive/track power wires, or the wires to the point motor?? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted July 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) Trackpower? May not be relevant if you have metal fishplates. Otherwise is it possible the wire inputs to the point motor switch have got crossed? They certainly go to different inputs in the photo? Edited July 9, 2021 by Gilbert 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Yes, the yellow and blue are reversed in each switch terminal block. I assume the switching is to feed either the blue or the yellow (+ or -) to the frog (green)? Should these be the same? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallpaul69 Posted July 9, 2021 Author Share Posted July 9, 2021 The layout builders agree I should reverse the yellow and blue wires on the point labelled 1. I will do this tomorrow and post on here the result. Thanks All, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted July 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2021 I sometimes use a DC input to the track with the DCC feed removed (easy in the rear of an NCE PCP pane)l as a multimeter will give a -/+ indication which can also help diagnose problems.. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 A layout wired for DCC, ie every track live, should work ok with one DC loco on DC for testing. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted July 15, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 15, 2021 On 09/07/2021 at 21:09, Tallpaul69 said: The layout builders agree I should reverse the yellow and blue wires on the point labelled 1. I will do this tomorrow and post on here the result. Thanks All, Paul What happened? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 5BarVT Posted July 16, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2021 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted July 16, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2021 7 minutes ago, 5BarVT said: Thank you - I was simply following this thread having offered a solution - which seems to have been correct. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallpaul69 Posted July 17, 2021 Author Share Posted July 17, 2021 Apologies for not updating this thread, the problem was cured by reversing the leads on the frog switch, so 10 out of 10 for those who spotted it! Cheers Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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