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Why did some classes not go to Woodhams?


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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

All oranges are fruits, but not all fruits are oranges.  The Hunslet Austerities are a sub-class of Hunslet 18 and a half inch saddle tanks designed for wartime production for the MoS, and those sold as war surplus to the LNER became their class J94; there are detail differences between the standard Hunslet locos and the Austerities (frame profile, cab cutout, overhang of bunker over rear buffer beam, and depth of buffer beams), and further detail difference between both types built to Hunslet drawings by other manufacturers.  Many industrial Hunslet-designed locos of this general appearance are not specifically Austerities, only those sold by the MoS into industrial use, and only those MoS locos sold to the LNER should be regarded as J94s. 

 

Satsumas are fruits as well, and look like oranges, but are not.  I'll grant you that there is a blurred line between satsumas, clementines, and tangerines, but non of them are oranges.

If looks like a J94, sounds like a J94, smells like a J94, its probably a J94, especially as there is only 2 of “real” ones left and neither have worked in 60 years, yet the term J94 is used daily on the nations railways.

 

if the Austerities at Barry arent J94’s then Tornado isnt an A1, KWVR doesnt have a WD 2-8-0 and Flying Scotsman doesn't exist… going further there is only 1 Deltic, 9466 isnt a GWR loco, neither is 7029 and most preserved manors, you could go on mincing pointless trivialities forever.

 

Not all cornflakes are made by Kelloggs, doesn't mean they aren't cornflakes, and most people in life don't have a Hoover, nor do they use Sellotape… doesn't make them bad people, they are just using household names as its convenient for the majority and just annoys those wound one twist too far.
 

What isnt a J94 is an RSH Ugly, even if its close. I’m sure i’ll be rectified in the rear  about why an Ugly isnt an Ugly too, but I don't care. Just dont go to Scotland and try telling them what a pug is.. you’ll be in for a very futile frustrating night,

 

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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33 minutes ago, Marshall5 said:

Not necessarily....  A couple of examples 'off the top of my head' are:

Several panniers including 7752 withdrawn from Tondu made the journey north to be cut up at Central Wagon at Ince nr.Wigan.  I bought the brass cabside plate for a quid!

Conversely 76077/9/84 withdrawn from Springs Branch Wigan went to Barry, in convoy, arriving in Sept 1968.

Strange, but it happened.

Ray.

 

This western region loco (what class is it ?) was photographed by my dad at Central Wagon Wigan. Date unknown.

 

1942369873_CENTRALWAGONINCEEXGWR460FORSCRAPND.jpg.072bd6a5ef2131dfea7acf4d874abb85.jpg

 

Brit15

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1 hour ago, Marshall5 said:

Not necessarily....  A couple of examples 'off the top of my head' are:

Several panniers including 7752 withdrawn from Tondu made the journey north to be cut up at Central Wagon at Ince nr.Wigan.  I bought the brass cabside plate for a quid!

Conversely 76077/9/84 withdrawn from Springs Branch Wigan went to Barry, in convoy, arriving in Sept 1968.

Strange, but it happened.

Ray.

 

Have you got the right number Ray?

 

7752 is at the West Somerset and was one of the LT locos.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/7752-2/

 

 

Jason

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3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I don't think this is quite fair to Dai, who sold his locos and bits off them by weight, the normal scrappie method, rather than market value.  The Rolls Royce was aquired by sensible business practice and hard work, not 'ripping off enthusiasts'.  The locos were retained as a backup reservoir of work for him and his men, as they preferred to cut wagon frames which were easier to deal with and gave a quicker turnaround of ready cash than the locos.  His attitude to enthusiasts was that, if they were on the up and up, he was happy to deal with them, but petty theft, vandalism, and disputes between preservationist groups understandably annoyed him.  The practice of 'letting them sit there festering' was informed by the work reservoir 'rainy day fund' approach, and not to sit on appreciating assets 'until somebody came along with enough dosh to offer more than scrap value; actually the value of the assets was increasing depreciating in the sea air.

No gripes about Woodham - he was conducting a legitimate business in an industry well known for its rogues.  Cutting up the 16T minerals as priority made perfect business sense as the work of the locos was more laborious and time-consuming, and as you say he needed to free up the the space quickly to make room for the next batch.  As for his roller, good luck to him - he'd worked for it.  Petty thefts and vandalism would be pretty much an occupational hazard in his location as I doubt it would have been economically practical to secure that site in the way most scrapyards today would be.  His MBE was awarded for creating jobs, but he equally well merited it for his part in saving so many of the steam locos we still have in operation today.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 you could go on mincing pointless trivialities forever.

Quite. Such as the fact that “historical significance” often depends on precise definitions not sweeping ill-informed generalisations. Very very few locomotives are “historically significant” in any meaningful sense of the term, including virtually everything that went to Barry, including the diesel wrecks. What was restored from Barry was what people at the time were prepared to put their own hard cash into as a hobby. Not what someone “thinks” should have been restored at the expense of something else.

Edited by RichardT
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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, RichardT said:

What was restored from Barry was what people at the time were prepared to put their own hard cash into as a hobby. Not what someone “thinks” should have been restored.

I kind of think your contradicting yourself there,..

 

if someone put there hard earned cash into a Barry wreck, then they surely are thinking they should have been restored, otherwise why put your hard earned in ?

 

But at the same time that doesn't disguise the mass theft of parts that was rife at Barry, putting back the chances of restoration of some locos by years, if not ever. Often parts looted, weren't even relevant for the loco being restored, but just opportunistic nicking…

 

As yard owner, Dai must have been somewhat annoyed by it, which influences behaviours… he eventually had to hire security to protect the place, which was an additional cost to his business, purely down to greed of those biting the hand that was feeding them.

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

 

This western region loco (what class is it ?) was photographed by my dad at Central Wagon Wigan. Date unknown.

 

1942369873_CENTRALWAGONINCEEXGWR460FORSCRAPND.jpg.072bd6a5ef2131dfea7acf4d874abb85.jpg

 

Brit15


That looks like a Hall to me. Not possible to be more specific as there are numerous Halls on Brdatabase without a listed fate .... and none are listed for Central Wagon 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

According to Railinfo 4950 and 4976 were scrapped in Wigan.


Many thanks. Withdrawn in 64 from Didcot and Oxford so not the longest final trip for WR locos on their final journey.... Kings at Norwich took in 47xx and others IIRC 

Edited by Phil Bullock
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9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

But at the same time that doesn't disguise the mass theft of parts that was rife at Barry, putting back the chances of restoration of some locos by years, if not ever. Often parts looted, weren't even relevant for the loco being restored, but just opportunistic nicking…

And you're sure that all these thefts were by steam enthusiasts? There was a certain amount, but it was mostly by groups who were buying an engine and making up for parts stolen from 'their' engine, or in some cases as spares for the future.

 

There are certain parts of society notorious for stealing valuable scrap, and these founds rich pickings on the engines stored in the open at Barry.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

And you're sure that all these thefts were by steam enthusiasts? There was a certain amount, but it was mostly by groups who were buying an engine and making up for parts stolen from 'their' engine, or in some cases as spares for the future.

 

There are certain parts of society notorious for stealing valuable scrap, and these founds rich pickings on the engines stored in the open at Barry.

The amount of trading of spare parts since Barry days, by locomotive groups, often selling parts not even of the same railway company, let alone class, suggests some activity as such happened.

 

There are some documented / published examples, often in publications in the 1990’s, where it seemed to condoned in a way today society would deem unacceptable…

 

lets not pretend every preservationists is a saint, almost all steam era railwayana is sold without proof of purchase from BR, and even today we see reports of preservation groups stores being looted.. its not all bad luck and opportunistic theft from outside the hobby. 
 

I know I couldnt just go into my office and walk out with a laptop, but in the 1960’s it did seem you can walk into a depot and walk out with a nameplate, and theres several published stories of groups at Barry only declaring half the contents of their van etc..

 

The last locos leaving Barry were very poor and heavily stripped, but didnt arrive like that. Sure some parts were probably purchased, but i’d wager a lot wasnt.

 

in short, just read old magazines… the examples are out there.. bold enough to admit and know they have both sympathy in the audience and have got away with it, due to good intention, but future historians may not be so generous and understanding.

Edited by adb968008
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I don't need to read the magazines: I WAS THERE! Yes, it happened, no denying that, but mostly it was to secure the future of the intended purchase. You also need to realise that no-one knew how many of the engines would eventually be preserved; they'd gone there to be broken up and as far as we were concerned, that's what would happen to them. There was little point simply letting useful parts go to be melted down with the parent loco. There was though some ethical thought involved: if a loco was subject to a purchase attempt, it was left strictly alone.

 

Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing; you can now say that the engines which came out later were heavily stripped and that's true, but it wasn't apparent through the 1970s that that would happen. We were trying to ensure the future running of those engines marked down for preservation at the time. Crystal balls hadn't been invented then, or now.

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20 hours ago, Steven B said:

Didn't Woodham's also have a huge quantity of 16t minerals and other wagons to cut up? These pushed the steam locos back in the queue to meet the cutters torch allowing more time to save them.

 

Steven B.

Yes and it is almost guaranteed that if the supply of wagons had dropped off for any reason, then the cutting up of locomotives would have started much sooner.

Woodham's was there to make money, for the least amount of effort and smallest practical workforce, just like almost any successful business. Since there were so many wagons, it worked out well for locomotive preservation groups, otherwise there would have been nothing to buy, regardless of price.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Their approach to cutting probably looked odd to outsiders too as they cut bits off wheels fairly early on. 

 

As I understood it this was done on certain of the biggest engines, cutting the bottoms off of the centre drivers enabled them to be shunted round the tightest curves in the yard.

Edited by PhilH
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Personally it is a blessing that so many classes got to Barry in the first place, that waggon cutting was more profitable and that we can still enjoy them today. We would not have the variety today if not. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, LMS2968 said:

Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing; you can now say that the engines which came out later were heavily stripped and that's true, but it wasn't apparent through the 1970s that that would happen. We were trying to ensure the future running of those engines marked down for preservation at the time. Crystal balls hadn't been invented then, or now.

Yeah, so many of the engines were painted with some sort of crude message about a preservation group wanting them - and they were really struggling to raise even the scrap value of the locos and the money needed for haulage to wherever, which was peanuts compared to what the survivors are now worth.  There was often a collecting box for donations somewhere on the loco.  It all looked wildly over-optimistic.

 

Even by the standards of the time I was surprised at the lack of security and how I could just wander about unchallenged.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I was reading a Nat Pres thread on the BR 3MT tanks recently. It appears that 82006 was sold to Barry, along with 3 Nine Elms shedmates (35009, 35027 and 35029). The Merchant Navies did of course end up at Barry, subsequently being saved for preservation, however 82006 somehow ended up at Buttigiegs, Newport, and was scrapped.

 

In a similar vein, one contributor claims to have come into possesion of number of consignment labels detached from steam locos arriving in South Wales for scrap. Among these was a label for 82010, marked “Woodham Bros. Barry”. Alas, the engine ended up at Bird's...

Edited by MattA
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32 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Yeah, so many of the engines were painted with some sort of crude message about a preservation group wanting them - and they were really struggling to raise even the scrap value of the locos and the money needed for haulage to wherever, which was peanuts compared to what the survivors are now worth.  There was often a collecting box for donations somewhere on the loco.  It all looked wildly over-optimistic.

 

Even by the standards of the time I was surprised at the lack of security and how I could just wander about unchallenged.

 

 

 

Collecting boxes on the locos? Never seen any. Don't forget it was a working scrapyard. It wasn't really a visitor attraction.

 

I'm afraid Dai would have taken that money if it happened. He did have a bit of a reputation....

 

 

As for nicking parts. Half of them still had their copper and brass work well into the 1970s. Most of the GWR locos even still had their safety valve bonnets. A lot of them were bought by legitimate people though. Places like Didcot and the SVR bought quite a bit as they honestly thought they wouldn't be there long. Especially when scrapping started resuming in the early 1970s and the threat of the oil crisis.

 

Cutting of wheels. Only happened to two locomotives ASAIK. Both of which derailed when being moved to release something else. One was scheduled to be sold as spares anyway - 45699. As it was thought that 45690 had a dodgy boiler.

 

 

Jason

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3 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

I don't need to read the magazines: I WAS THERE! Yes, it happened, no denying that, but mostly it was to secure the future of the intended purchase. You also need to realise that no-one knew how many of the engines would eventually be preserved; they'd gone there to be broken up and as far as we were concerned, that's what would happen to them. There was little point simply letting useful parts go to be melted down with the parent loco. There was though some ethical thought involved: if a loco was subject to a purchase attempt, it was left strictly alone.

 

Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing; you can now say that the engines which came out later were heavily stripped and that's true, but it wasn't apparent through the 1970s that that would happen. We were trying to ensure the future running of those engines marked down for preservation at the time. Crystal balls hadn't been invented then, or now.

 

Marshall5 (Ray) was involved in a few as well. He's in this in a few "blink and you'll miss him moments".

 

 

I was too young. Visited Barry a few times, but wasn't involved in preservation until the mid 1980s when the Barry story was mostly over.

 

 

Jason

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24 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Collecting boxes on the locos? Never seen any. Don't forget it was a working scrapyard. It wasn't really a visitor attraction.

 

I'm afraid Dai would have taken that money if it happened. He did have a bit of a reputation....

 

 

As for nicking parts. Half of them still had their copper and brass work well into the 1970s. Most of the GWR locos even still had their safety valve bonnets. A lot of them were bought by legitimate people though. Places like Didcot and the SVR bought quite a bit as they honestly thought they wouldn't be there long. Especially when scrapping started resuming in the early 1970s and the threat of the oil crisis.

 

Cutting of wheels. Only happened to two locomotives ASAIK. Both of which derailed when being moved to release something else. One was scheduled to be sold as spares anyway - 45699. As it was thought that 45690 had a dodgy boiler.

 

 

Jason

I agree with all that except the last two sentences. 6023 and 5699 were indeed the only engines whose wheels were cut, and then only as an aid to rerailing. But my memory of the 5Xs is that 5699 was the chosen one - until it fell on the floor and the wheels were cut, after which it was believed to be a lost cause and attention turned to its sister, 5690.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

I agree with all that except the last two sentences. 6023 and 5699 were indeed the only engines whose wheels were cut, and then only as an aid to rerailing. But my memory of the 5Xs is that 5699 was the chosen one - until it fell on the floor and the wheels were cut, after which it was believed to be a lost cause and attention turned to its sister, 5690.

92207’s leading pony wheels were cut.

I thought there was a standard 4 tank too ?

 

Edited by adb968008
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17 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

This western region loco (what class is it ?) was photographed by my dad at Central Wagon Wigan. Date unknown.

 

1942369873_CENTRALWAGONINCEEXGWR460FORSCRAPND.jpg.072bd6a5ef2131dfea7acf4d874abb85.jpg

 

Brit15

It's a Hall; 4-6-0 with straight running plate, straight steam pipes, Collett cab and no.1 boiler.

 

44 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Collecting boxes on the locos? Never seen any. Don't forget it was a working scrapyard. It wasn't really a visitor attraction.

 

I'm afraid Dai would have taken that money if it happened. He did have a bit of a reputation....

 

 

As for nicking parts. Half of them still had their copper and brass work well into the 1970s. Most of the GWR locos even still had their safety valve bonnets. A lot of them were bought by legitimate people though. Places like Didcot and the SVR bought quite a bit as they honestly thought they wouldn't be there long. Especially when scrapping started resuming in the early 1970s and the threat of the oil crisis.

 

Cutting of wheels. Only happened to two locomotives ASAIK. Both of which derailed when being moved to release something else. One was scheduled to be sold as spares anyway - 45699. As it was thought that 45690 had a dodgy boiler.

 

 

Jason

I don't remember collecting boxes on locos, and if Dai didn't 'ave 'em the locals would have!  Copper and brass parts were taken off very shortly after arrival, and I don't recall any safety valve covers on GW locos. or copper chimney caps; you may be confusing with chimneys on 45xx, 4575, 57xx/8750, 43xx, 42xx, 5205 or 72xx, which were cast iron capped and never copper anyway.  Halls, Castles, and KIngs had brass strips on the leading edge of the cabs, and these were removed on arrival, if not before, as well.  No loco at Barry had cab windows, so the brass frames of these had gone as well.

 

I do remember seeing piles of GW brass number and nameplates lying around for the taking, but not at Woodhams'; this was at Cardiff East Dock loco shed.  Honesty and the difficulty of getting a nameplate home on a bike combined to prevent me taking advantage, but there were others who were less reticent...

 

IIRC the centre driving wheels were cut on the 2 Kings, which had caused derailment problems because of the weight rather than the wheebase according to Dai, and which were shunted down to the far end of one of the 'field' roads to discourage their being moved.  I never saw any scrapped locos being moved at Barry, but Dai didn't have a loco and I assumed he towed or shoved them around with a road tractor.  Transfers from the Factory Sidings were done by BR with 08s.  There was a precedent for privately owned steam at Barry; the contractor who recovered track from Cadoxton yard in the mid 60s used a 16xx pannier that he scrapped after the job, and gained some notoriety by racing the dmus between Cadoxton and Barry Dock stations with it.  Not sure whether he owned or hired this loco.

 

The condition of the locos naturally deteriorated over time, and in the mid and late 60s some looked as if you could drive them away if you replaced the connecting rods, liveries being reasonably discernable, and the exterior condition being better than some locos still in service!  Even at the end, sandboxes that had last been filled before the locos' last BR duties still had the sand in them.  When the survivors were moved to the Welsh Industrial & Maritime Museum's old site at Bute Road station in the 90s before returning to Barry, it was noticeable that the older locos, e.g. 28xx, had survived the decades of salt sea air in much better condition than the 'new' 9Fs, presumably because of better quality steel resisting oxidisation. 

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Posted (edited)

You have to also remember that Dai didn't think they were going to last that long either as he sold a load of tenders to BSC Port Talbot to be cut down and used as ingot carriers.  I don't know if they were cut down before they left Barry or when they arrived at BSC.

Edited by jools1959
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