Duchess BR Black livery query

[t-b-g]

I did raise this query on Tony Wright's thread but none of the regulars there has been able to answer it yet so I am asking it to a wider audience (hopefully).

 

Some time ago, Wrenn produced a model of 46251 "City of Nottingham" in BR lined black livery with the early totem on the tender. A friend of mine fancies modelling one but despite lots of checking, we have not been able to turn up any evidence that this livery combination was a real one rather than one they made up. We know there were some with BRITISH RAILWAYS and we know of at least one with the LMS lining and the early crest. We also know that 46201 appeared in this livery combination so it is not a totally fictional livery for an ex LMS Pacific but was it applied to Duchesses?

 

The question is, does anybody have any hard evidence, preferably a photo, which proves the BR lined black early crest livery was actually applied either to 46251 or to any others in the class?

 

Here's hoping!

 

Thanks

 

Tony Gee

[Andy Kirkham]

I make no claim to special expertise, but based on a lifetime of looking at railway photographs,  I'd be inclined to say that no Class 8 passenger loco ever appeared in BR lined black, which was after all intended for mixed traffic locos.

 

And also, Wrenn were not averse to releasing locos in manifestly fictional liveries - e.g a "GWR" Standard 2-6-4T , and a rebuilt Westcountry in Southern Malachite Green

Edited July 8, 2021 by Andy Kirkham

[t-b-g]

2 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

I make no claim to special expertise, but based on a lifetime of looking at railway photographs,  I'd be inclined to say that no Class 8 passenger loco ever appeared in BR lined black, which was after all intended for mixed traffic locos.

 

That is our experience of looking at lots of photos too.

 

Yet a "Princess" certainly did appear in that livery and there was no way that was classed as mixed traffic. It was reproduced by Rovex/Triang on their model for quite a few years afterwards and prototype photos exist.

 

We are talking about very early BR days, 1949 and the few years following that. There were many hybrid and odd liveries at the time.

 

It is a long shot and very probably the case that it never happened but I am asking just in case Wrenn got it right with their model W2414.

 

 

 

 

[Andy Kirkham]

4 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

 

Yet a "Princess" certainly did appear in that livery and there was no way that was classed as mixed traffic. It was reproduced by Rovex/Triang on their model for quite a few years afterwards and prototype photos exist.

 

 

 

Well I never! I had no idea about that. There is a photo here https://6201.co.uk/index.php/timeline-3/#lightbox[15982]/4/

Edited July 8, 2021 by Andy Kirkham

[Steamport Southport]

Don't believe all you read on the internet. 

 

Yep. City Of Nottingham is correct. Got BR - LNWR style lined black in May 1950.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/7998935973/

 

They did receive BR lined black. Eight got it and others received the LMS style. In fact they were all black at one point.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Coronation_Class#The_British_Railways_era

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[Pete the Elaner]

The Turbomotive also got BR lined black with the early crest. There is a photo of it on pages 110 & 142 in "The LMS Turbomotive" by Jeremy Clements & Kevin Robertson, but that doesn't answer your question.

I compiled a livery spreadsheet for the Coronation class, but unfortunately it only covers their LMS days.

[t-b-g]

 

3 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Don't believe all you read on the internet. 

 

Yep. City Of Nottingham is correct. Got BR - LNWR style lined black in May 1950.

 

They did receive BR lined black. Eight got it and others received the LMS style. In fact they were all black at one point.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Coronation_Class#The_British_Railways_era

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

 

That is our information too and we have numbers for all the locos that had lined black but every photo we have found has "BRITISH RAILWAYS" in full on the tender rather than the crest. It is that particular combination of features that we are hoping to establish. Black loco. BR lining. Early crest.

Edited July 8, 2021 by t-b-g
remove strange multi quote

[Andy Kirkham]

5 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Don't believe all you read on the internet. 

 

Yep. City Of Nottingham is correct. Got BR - LNWR style lined black in May 1950.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/7998935973/

 

They did receive BR lined black. Eight got it and others received the LMS style. In fact they were all black at one point.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Coronation_Class#The_British_Railways_era

 

 

 

That will teach me to pontificate about things  I know barely anything about 

[Steamport Southport]

6 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

 

That is our information too and we have numbers for all the locos that had lined black but every photo we have found has "BRITISH RAILWAYS" in full on the tender rather than the crest. It is that particular combination of features that we are hoping to establish. Black loco. BR lining. Early crest.

 

It didn't receive green until 1955. I can't see it still running about with the BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering that late as ISTR that it wasn't liked.

 

I'll have a good look and if I find something conclusive I'll post it.

 

 

Jason

[PenrithBeacon]

LMS Locomotives by Essery etc is a little vague about BR lined black on Dutchess' but the there is a photo of one in dark blue with LNW style lining which, it seems, several of the engines carried. It could easily be confused for black

[t-b-g]

1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

It didn't receive green until 1955. I can't see it still running about with the BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering that late as ISTR that it wasn't liked.

 

I'll have a good look and if I find something conclusive I'll post it.

 

 

Jason

 

Thanks Jason. Or references indicated 46251 was black from April 1949 until October 1951, so perhaps it went blue for a while before 1955.

 

The longest lasting in BR lined black we have found is 46238 from Mar 49 until Oct 53. That might be a good candidate as it ought to have had a visit to the shops during that time.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 minute ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

That will teach me to pontificate about things  I know barely anything about 

 

I don't expect this is the only subject about something 70 years ago on which there is incomplete or conflicting information.

Don't feel chastised about trying to be helpful.

 

The livery chart on Wikipedia shows some irregularities compared to my chart which I compiled from several sources.

6229 in plain black at nationalisation - It had its casing removed at the very end of LMS days, so was either in Crewe on nationalisation or only just released in gleaming 1946 black.

The same applies to 6236.

6226 in plain black at nationalisation - My chart shows this was de-streamlined in June 1947 & it is generally accepted that the only BR streamliner was 6243. A Duchess de-streamlined in 1947 would have been painted in lined black.

 

Maybe my chart is slightly wrong? maybe the wikipedia entry has some errors? I can't say who/what is right with any certainty. It was over 70 years ago & over 20 years before I was born!

 

If something is plausible & nobody can prove it is wrong, then model it! 

 

[t-b-g]

2 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

LMS Locomotives by Essery etc is a little vague about BR lined black on Dutchess' but the there is a photo of one in dark blue with LNW style lining which, it seems, several of the engines carried. It could easily be confused for black

 

Indeed it could be tricky from a black and white photo but there are pretty good records of which ones were black and what the painting dates were. The only thing they don't confirm is whether they had "BRITISH RAILWAYS" or the crest. I never like people asking for help on RMWeb when the information they are asking for is readily available. A good trawl through huge amounts of photo, books, magazines and the internet has failed to help us with this one so we are really just hoping that somebody out there can say "I have a photo which proves it existed".

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

10 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Thanks Jason. Or references indicated 46251 was black from April 1949 until October 1951, so perhaps it went blue for a while before 1955.

 

The longest lasting in BR lined black we have found is 46238 from Mar 49 until Oct 53. That might be a good candidate as it ought to have had a visit to the shops during that time.

 

Look at the Wikipedia page I posted above. You need to click on the table.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Coronation_Class#Table_of_BR_liveries

 

All the liveries are there. Correct to the Duchesses book by Jenkinson and other books.

 

Unfortunately it don't mention crests or lettering.

 

 

Jason

Edited July 8, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[t-b-g]

4 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Look at the Wikipedia page I posted above. You need to click on the table.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Coronation_Class#Table_of_BR_liveries

 

All the liveries are there. Correct to the Duchesses book by Jenkinson and other books.

 

Unfortunately it don't mention crests or lettering.

 

 

Jason

 

That doesn't match the information a friend found in one of his books but if that table is correct, it makes a good case for City Of Nottingham being in black long enough to receive a crest.

 

As with all these things, we have to rely on information gathered and presented by others and when it doesn't match, we have to make a judgement on which is most likely to be correct.

 

Many thanks for posting that. I had completely missed that table when I looked there previously.

[TravisM]

I can’t say I know anything about early BR liveries but I do remember talking to a old steam hand many, many years ago.  He said that once the early crest had been officially unveiled, there was almost a stampede to remove the British Railways lettering and put the crest on.  He went onto say that the charge hand told him which engines needed to be done (6 in all), though he only did 5 as somebody nicked one of them and put it on a train.

 

I would say that if you put a early crest on the tender of a lined BR black Duchess, given the early period of BR’s existence, I don’t think anyone will query it.  I did read somewhere that a green Jubilee ran in BR numbers and a red LMS tender in 1948, but that’s another story.

Edited July 9, 2021 by jools1959
Spelling

[LMS2968]

6251 was built without streamlining but with streamlined tender 9814, 3/6/44. It was in plain wartime black livery. It acquired the 1946 maroon / straw lining in August 1947 and was in that condition when it ran into the rear of the preceding train in April 1948, Despite massive damage to stock, there was little damage to the engine and she had a Light Service repair at Crewe. This did bot involve a repaint, but she was renumbered with her BR number but retained LMS on the tender. This lasted to May 1949 when she became one of seven (6226, 6234, 6238, 6246, 6248, 6251, 6252) to receive BR black with LNWR lining, and this lasted to February 1955, when she became green.

 

 A photo date 2 May 1948 in Irwell's updated  'Book of . . .' shows 6224 and 6232 in the LMS 1946 livery but with BR numbers and BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tenders. It is thought that they did not enter traffic in that condition but went to experimental blue in August and May 1948 respectively and without going through the BR lined black livery stage. 6226 was the first to get BR lined black in September 1948. 6234 in lined black had the full lettering on the tender in a photo of 10 August 1951, likewise 6248 on 16 October 1949 and 6234 'about 1950'. 6246 had the full lettering  on 20 June 1949, as did 6252 on 21 June 1949.

Edited July 9, 2021 by LMS2968
Correcting tender insignia for 6224 and 6232

[t-b-g]

I have double checked and according to "The Duchesses: Stanier's Masterpiece" by Roger Mannion, City of Nottingham was green from October 1951, so there is a discrepancy of 4 years between that source and others.

 

What we really need is a photo of the loco around 1954 give or take a year.

[t-b-g]

The plot thickens! City of Montrose is generally known to be the first Duchess painted green, in Nov 1951.

 

City of Nottingham went into works for a new boiler on 23rd Nov 1951 and would have been in for a short while, returning to traffic after Montrose was painted green.

 

If the decision to paint the locos green had been taken, would 46251 get a major overhaul and be sent back into traffic in black?

 

If it did return to traffic in black, that overhaul would very likely be the date when it received the crest to replace "BRITISH RAILWAYS".

 

So we now need a photo of 46251 taken between Nov 1951 and October 1955. 

[LMS2968]

There is a photo in the Wild Swan pictorial supplement showing 6251 in the BR lined black and with the first BR crest on the tender. In can be difficult telling black, dark blue and green apart in B&W photos, but the white is very white so it probably is. The caption reads, "Sometime after being painted in BR lined black, we suspect in November 1951 but can't be sure, 46251 had its tender lettering replaced by BR emblems and was fitted with Gill Sans smokebox door number plate. . ."

 

Interestingly, 6232 completed her Heavy General overhaul 17 November 1951and 6251 on the 23rd. She had been in Crewe works since 22 October, so if the date of the above photo is correct, it must have been taken in the last week of the month, AFTER the overhaul. Although clean in the photo, it does not appear to have been repainted.

[t-b-g]

3 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

There is a photo in the Wild Swan pictorial supplement showing 6251 in the BR lined black and with the first BR crest on the tender. In can be difficult telling black, dark blue and green apart in B&W photos, but the white is very white so it probably is. The caption reads, "Sometime after being painted in BR lined black, we suspect in November 1951 but can't be sure, 46251 had its tender lettering replaced by BR emblems and was fitted with Gill Sans smokebox door number plate. . ."

 

Interestingly, 6232 completed her Heavy General overhaul 17 November 1951and 6251 on the 23rd. She had been in Crewe works since 22 October, so if the date of the above photo is correct, it must have been taken in the last week of the month, AFTER the overhaul. Although clean in the photo, it does not appear to have been repainted.

 

You are an absolute star! Many thanks. In due course (but it might take a while) a 7mm scale Finney City of Nottingham will appear in that livery. The builder isn't on RMWeb so I was asking on his behalf but he will be delighted that proof has been found.

 

 

[Ian Rathbone]

On 08/07/2021 at 22:31, Andy Kirkham said:

I make no claim to special expertise, but based on a lifetime of looking at railway photographs,  I'd be inclined to say that no Class 8 passenger loco ever appeared in BR lined black, which was after all intended for mixed traffic locos.

 

And also, Wrenn were not averse to releasing locos in manifestly fictional liveries - e.g a "GWR" Standard 2-6-4T , and a rebuilt Westcountry in Southern Malachite Green

It is true that no class 8 loco was painted in BR lined black - they only became class 8 in 1953, before that they were class 7. 
One for the pedants.

 

Ian R

 

[LMS2968]

I thought the reclassifications were from 1951?

[t-b-g]

I always thought it was 1951 when they became class 8 but whichever it is, 46251 was in black until 1955, so it ran, in traffic, in BR lined black as a class 8. I am not going to lose any sleep over whether the class or the paint happened first! It would probably have been painted black again at the end of 1951 when it received a full overhaul including a boiler change so it is very likely that it was painted black after it became a class 8 but I can't see why or how that matters.

[Ian Rathbone]

15 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

I thought the reclassifications were from 1951?

Sorry, I got the date wrong, yes it was 1951. 1953 was the year that the Southern Region started using the BR power class system.

 

Ian R