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Train failures on heritage lines


willjam39
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Hi all,

 

Last weekend I was having a ride on a local preserved line when the engine failed between stops. The delay wiped out the next train as they had to get a diesel ready to come get us and that go me thinking. Do most preserved lines have a rehearsed plan for if something fails away from the station? As it must happen every so often but I've never had it happen before. 

 

The onboard crew did a good job of updating and keeping all cheery but did feel sorry they lost what would have been a 3rd of the days runs. 

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I would think a plan is a necessary requirement  in order to be able to get approval to operate.  Should be covered in the SMS (Safety Management System) at least. 

Edited by Titan
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Covered by the rules on failures and working to the point of obstruction. Train failures are rare, but they happen. There is always an expectation of if you can get inside the safety of fixed signals to do that, but its not always possible.

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The crews are required to be competent in the rules, so it shouldn't a problem to send out another loco engine to rescue a failure assuming the railway does indeed have another serviceable loco - usually a diesel unless an engine already in steam can be reallocated to that train!  That might mean cancelling the train it was booked to work.  

 

Steam engines usually give some indication of a problem so can usually limp home or at least to some station it is more convenient to change engines.  Sudden total failure en route is a problem more likely to afflict heritage diesels.  As preserved locos are museum pieces, it's hardly surprising that it's difficult to keep them in tip top condition, and faults are more likely than with the big railway.  But a lot of problems will surface before the loco even leaves for n its first trip of the day - so hopefully somebody will have the gumption to substitute another loco in place of the one originally rostered.

 

Heritage lines usually start the season with more serviceable locos than they need to cover the service, and when one fails the restoration volunteers will be diverted from their next project  try to rectify the fault to get it back into traffic, but they typically can't if it's big job.  So by the end of the season some of the weaker preserved lines may be struggling a bit to find locos to meet the timetable 

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Train failures do occur and it does cause problems. However as noted there are established routines that are put in place. Diesels are a godsend as they can be put into action at relatively  short notice assisting at the rear or attached at the front. Keeping passengers informed is the key.

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Rules on every railway I have worked on cover protecting a train failed in section and the admittance into an occupied section of an assisting locomotive or train. All staff are trained and regularly assessed on the rules, with particular attention being paid to failures. In my experience, train failures requiring assistance are moderately common (perhaps once a month), which in turn means that staff (both employees and volunteers) become experienced in how to deal with them.

 

While the railway safety side is generally very well managed, two other things owe a lot more to chance. One is the availability of a spare locomotive and crew; rostered standbys are common at busy times, but at quieter times, the rescue plan might rely on there happening to be a suitable locomotive available, and being able to contact an off-duty driver at home who is also fit for duty. The other thing is communication to passengers. Protecting the train is a job for the guard, and sometimes it is also the guard's job to contact the signaller or control. However, it is generally the guard who keeps passengers informed about what is going on, so if the guard is away fulfilling their duties as required by the rules, there might not be anyone available to talk to passengers.

3 hours ago, willjam39 said:

The onboard crew did a good job of updating and keeping all cheery

I am very pleased to hear it. From the other side, may I also say how well passengers behave when things go wrong. It is exceptionally rare for anyone to complain or make a fuss; some passengers are understandably concerned about delays affecting their plans, and we try to find ways to ensure their needs are dealt with, but most passengers treat the whole thing as an added bit of fun.

Edited by Jeremy C
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The climb out of Grosmont must be the most severe on a heritage line and is certainly a big test of both loco and footplate crew. Many years ago I was on a train that ran out of steam up this hill which was an interesting experience. As we climbed we went slower and slower and then the brakes started to come on. There were a couple of drivers from the SVR on our carriage and they were having a good laugh as this happened. Ultimately we stopped for a blow up and then the driver had to do a hill start. This took a few attempts as I am sure getting the brakes to come off and the steam to the cylinders at exactly the right time must take a lot of skill. Eventually we got going and had a nice trip. So not a loco failure as such but a loss of honour - I bet the driver and fireman get some ribbing when this happens and I'm sure the crew blame the loco maintenance.

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4 hours ago, Chris M said:

The climb out of Grosmont must be the most severe on a heritage line and is certainly a big test of both loco and footplate crew. Many years ago I was on a train that ran out of steam up this hill which was an interesting experience. As we climbed we went slower and slower and then the brakes started to come on. There were a couple of drivers from the SVR on our carriage and they were having a good laugh as this happened. Ultimately we stopped for a blow up and then the driver had to do a hill start. This took a few attempts as I am sure getting the brakes to come off and the steam to the cylinders at exactly the right time must take a lot of skill. Eventually we got going and had a nice trip. So not a loco failure as such but a loss of honour - I bet the driver and fireman get some ribbing when this happens and I'm sure the crew blame the loco maintenance.

 

I was on a similar trip on the NYMR with Hartland back in the late 90's at a Thomas Weekend which stalled on the bank, it managed to restart the train and reach Goathland after setting back slightly to pick up the coahces slowly. It was at Bridge 30 at Thommason Foss, which years later when this bridge was repaired it was discovered  the gradiant was avtually 1 in 19 there, so no wonder with a full train and the hill it stalled

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On 13/07/2021 at 20:11, Jeremy C said:

Rules on every railway I have worked on cover protecting a train failed in section and the admittance into an occupied section of an assisting locomotive or train. All staff are trained and regularly assessed on the rules, with particular attention being paid to failures. In my experience, train failures requiring assistance are moderately common (perhaps once a month), which in turn means that staff (both employees and volunteers) become experienced in how to deal with them.

 

While the railway safety side is generally very well managed, two other things owe a lot more to chance. One is the availability of a spare locomotive and crew; rostered standbys are common at busy times, but at quieter times, the rescue plan might rely on there happening to be a suitable locomotive available, and being able to contact an off-duty driver at home who is also fit for duty. The other thing is communication to passengers. Protecting the train is a job for the guard, and sometimes it is also the guard's job to contact the signaller or control. However, it is generally the guard who keeps passengers informed about what is going on, so if the guard is away fulfilling their duties as required by the rules, there might not be anyone available to talk to passengers.

I am very pleased to hear it. From the other side, may I also say how well passengers behave when things go wrong. It is exceptionally rare for anyone to complain or make a fuss; some passengers are understandably concerned about delays affecting their plans, and we try to find ways to ensure their needs are dealt with, but most passengers treat the whole thing as an added bit of fun.

 If the Railway has Travelling Ticket Inspectors it is their job guided by the guard to inform passengers regarding delays etc. On the Railway I volunteer trains carry water that can be given out after 30 min delay or at the guards discretion if temp hot etc. Most issues with passengers seem to revolve around car park tickets running out or being late for a meal being booked. 

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The danger is the rescuing  light engine and train with passengers being in section together.  Some of the light engine movements on preserved railways are a lot more than 25MPH and a garbled message as to the whereabouts of a failed train could be disastrous.

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20 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

The danger is the rescuing  light engine and train with passengers being in section together.  Some of the light engine movements on preserved railways are a lot more than 25MPH and a garbled message as to the whereabouts of a failed train could be disastrous.

ORR require rules covering such things on all railways.  Please can we stick to facts in terms of train failures rather than assumptions. 

 

On the SVR, that is why protection is carried out with 3 dets 10 yards apart  at 100 yards from the train and either the guard or the fireman will have walked to the nearest signalbox where rescue is expected to come from.

 

Their job is to then pilot the rescue engine to the site of the failure. If the fireman or guard has not got to that point and hears something they are instructed to put 3 detonators down.  Similarly the rescue engine must travel at reduced speed when in the section.  In the cases I can think of in all cases the fireman or second man had reached another open signalbox before any rescuing engine came (failures are very rare). I have a vague memory of the 08 being used to rescue a train once so no danger of going too quickly there. 

 

Upon exploding a detonator the rescuing engine must stop immediately and then proceed at walking pace to the point of the obstruction. 

 

 

 

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The rule book is quite explicit on who needs to do what and when, regardless of whether it's a heritage railway or the big one. On single lines withone engine in steam the token needs to travel to the box from which the rescue is coming, to allow the rescue loco to access the line.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

. On single lines withone engine in steam the token needs to travel to the box from which the rescue is coming, to allow the rescue loco to access the line.

 

 

The token does not go back into the machine it remains with the Fireman, Second man or Guard on a token section. They keep that as protection. Only in circumstances where the rescue comes from the other end of the section would that person 'give up' the token.  There are of course differences if Pilotman working is in operation. 

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6 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

The danger is the rescuing  light engine and train with passengers being in section together.  Some of the light engine movements on preserved railways are a lot more than 25MPH and a garbled message as to the whereabouts of a failed train could be disastrous.

Could you give specific instances of excessive speed, please? And of garbled communications? 

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4 hours ago, Blandford1969 said:

The token does not go back into the machine it remains with the Fireman, Second man or Guard on a token section. They keep that as protection. Only in circumstances where the rescue comes from the other end of the section would that person 'give up' the token.  There are of course differences if Pilotman working is in operation. 

 

 

Certainly on the ESR, if the token remains with the loco,  there's no way to get a 2nd rescue loco off shed,  unless the point locks are dismantled,  it's one engine in steam. The fireman protects the train with dets and then returns to shed with the token.  I doubt that the ESR is the only railway that operates without the benefit of a signal box and signalmen.

 

 

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11 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

The danger is the rescuing  light engine and train with passengers being in section together.  Some of the light engine movements on preserved railways are a lot more than 25MPH and a garbled message as to the whereabouts of a failed train could be disastrous.

Why would a message be garbled? All procedures are set out in the rule book and have to be followed just the same a on the national network. Have you any facts to back up your perhaps not too well informed post?

I enclose a photo of the Mid Hants Railway rule book and a sample page. All grades have regular rules tests to ensure knowledge of these rules. Safety critical staff must have the rule book available at all times for reference in case of doubt. We aren’t playing at it…

17478C1D-1E41-4957-BC59-6E330ECDD8A1.jpeg

8D92F389-9AB1-47AD-BCCA-04E3437B312F.jpeg

Edited by PhilH
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3 hours ago, PhilH said:

All grades have regular rules tests to ensure knowledge of these rules. Safety critical staff must have the rule book available at all times for reference in case of doubt. We aren’t playing at it…

 

 

Yup, currently getting ready for my latest re-rules and for anyone who things its easy they last about 4 to 5 hours. There is no playing with a train of 200 plus tons and peoples lives. 

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10 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

The rule book is quite explicit on who needs to do what and when, regardless of whether it's a heritage railway or the big one. On single lines withone engine in steam the token needs to travel to the box from which the rescue is coming, to allow the rescue loco to access the line.

 

 

No it doesn't - reg14 governs the situation. the rescue engine enters the obstructed section on a written authority given by the signalman. That is only given when the signalman has been assured by the broken down train that the necessary protection has been placed. That is detonators have been placed in rear and front of the train at 1/4 mile intervals to 3/4 mile where 3 are placed.

Edited by meil
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Some lines don't have a signalman, as I mentioned above on the ESR is one of them. Also ISTR that when a DMU failed on the Bere Alston to Gunnislake section of the Gunni branch, the guard had a taxi back to Plymouth, as that was the quickest way to get the staff for the FPL at Bere Alston onto the Thunderbird.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The purpose of the signalling is to keep trains away from one another so you don't need a signalman if there's only one train in operation,

The section signals cannot be cleared as you cannot get is line clear. 

 

Certainly with one engine in steam it would be different as you say

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On 15/07/2021 at 07:55, DavidCBroad said:

The danger is the rescuing  light engine and train with passengers being in section together.  Some of the light engine movements on preserved railways are a lot more than 25MPH and a garbled message as to the whereabouts of a failed train could be disastrous.

No movement should exceed the line speed at any time. When entering an occupied section a loco should proceed at a speed that would enable the driver to stop within the distance they can see to be clear, basically a walking place. 
 

The rules for heritage railways are no different to the mainline and all drivers will be regularly assessed as competent and compliant. 
 

If you have genuine evidence (ie. not platform end or internet speculation) that anything you suggest is actually happening you should report it to the ORR. 

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