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Plastic chairs and MEK. Very poor bond.


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11 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

@Haggerleases

 

Hi,

 

The intention is that you use the plastic timbers with plastic chairs.

 

The chairs are not designed or intended for plywood timbers -- that's entirely up to the user.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Since the days of Brian, C&L as a company has been promoting or supplying the need of those wishing to use what they believe is the best of both worlds, being ply timbers and sleepers and plastic chairs. Like wise when Exactoscale first started from memory I think Len was supplying ply timbers

 

6 minutes ago, Izzy said:


Don’t blame the makers. This is I feel my fault, because as Martin says they were/are intended for use with plastic sleepers. It was just that when I did that review I mentioned previously all I received were some chairs and a few plastic sleepers. Not really enough to do much with. As I was then using the white metal ones on ply sleepers, which were the only type available to people at that time, I thought I’d just give it a try, the plastic onto the ply, using the plastic glue I had to hand, which happened to be Slaters Mek-Pak. 
 

When it worked okay I included it to show what was possible. Pointwork using a few rivets under the crossing and at the divergence for electrical connections. The producers were of course hoping to sell loads of plastic sleepers alongside the plastic flexible track. But the plastic-on-ply seemed to gain favour with quite a few who also found it worked for them.

 

My apologies.

 

Izzy

 

Izzy

 

Many have successfully used and developed the method you pioneered, rather than apologising please accept a pat on the back. Developing ideas is how the hobby moves on using methods and processed designed for other things in some cases unrelated to model railways. As for being able to break the bond, many will see this as a benefit not a disadvantage. The use of whole chairs rather than half chairs is far preferable than half chairs.

 

If strength is required, copperclad timbers/sleepers can be used, either with risers so half chairs can be used, or better still brass chairs

 

I understand that in the raw stained timbers look best, but in skilled hands once carefully painted, ballasted and weathered plastic timbers (& sleepers) can easily pass for wood. Quite often its the fear of what may happen which is the limiting factor.    

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Worthwhile discussion guys, thanks ever so much for your comments one and all. Not easy being a beginner, you see all this amazing track and you think 'hmm, I'll give that a go, can't be too hard' and before you know it you're grinding your teeth in frustration. Having actually worked with a Pway gang in the early 90's I have to say the big stuff is a lot easier. Am sure the end result will be worth the pain. 

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To repeat myself.

 

I have build two exhibition layouts in plastic/ply using Butanone bought on ebay as 99% pure.

 

One of the layouts gets more use than the other and get shifted around quite a lot. (in 16.2 00-SF)

My main reason the choose ply sleepers was that I more or less stain them with a paint 'wash'. This way, heavy handed Club members don't take the paint off the sleepers when track cleaning.

 

Yes, I have made silly mistakes when building the track and the possibility of releasing chairs and re-positioning them is a life saver.

 

You will, of course, need stronger fixings at any baseboard joints to stop rails being caught on something and being pulled out of the chairs. I use brass screws.

 

Just give it a go.

 

Dave.

 

Track_building2005_1217(006).jpg.f56571fe4b109dc1e2aefb3604daac56.jpgLayout0043.JPG.4be74fdee22761ec4b649852f90aa4b1.JPG2012_0220NewYardTrack0022.JPG.f0e9d9089dc7dc92fb3c81ff117f8ae3.JPG

 

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Hi chaps. Bit of success today. I used the Polypipe stuff. Brushed it onto a sleeper  let it dry, then put a few chairs on with mek/butanone or whatever they're calling it this week. Worked much better. I couldn't budge them sideways, but could still (with more of a struggle this time) lift it off with a fingernail. 

The chair had bonded to the layer of polypipe adhesive, which had bonded to the ply. I think the polypipe stuff may need a little thinning. It is quite thick and gloopy. 

I think a factor is the temperature in my converted attic man cave causing the MEK to 'flash off' too fast. I'll continue the experiment in a cooler room and report back.

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1 hour ago, Haggerleases said:

Bit of success today. I used the Polypipe stuff. Brushed it onto a sleeper  let it dry, then put a few chairs on with mek/butanone or whatever they're calling it this week. Worked much better.

@Haggerleases

 

Well there's a surprise. Follow the chair manufacturer's instructions, and it works. :)

 

Martin.

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2 hours ago, Haggerleases said:

Bit of success today. I used the Polypipe stuff. Brushed it onto a sleeper  let it dry, then put a few chairs on with mek/butanone or whatever they're calling it this week. Worked much better.

 

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

Well there's a surprise. Follow the chair manufacturer's instructions, and it works. :)

Martin, do you think the Polypipe could help in bonding resin printed chairs to HIPS timber strip in a similar manner? Polypipe on bottom of 3D printed chairs, then butanone?

 

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36 minutes ago, Wayne Kinney said:

 

Martin, do you think the Polypipe could help in bonding resin printed chairs to HIPS timber strip in a similar manner? Polypipe on bottom of 3D printed chairs, then butanone?

 

 

How about using high quality quality superglue, or one of the newer polymer glues

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45 minutes ago, Wayne Kinney said:

Martin, do you think the Polypipe could help in bonding resin printed chairs to HIPS timber strip in a similar manner? Polypipe on bottom of 3D printed chairs, then butanone?

@Wayne Kinney

 

Hi Wayne,

 

Worth a try, but I'm a bit doubtful.

 

Polypipe is essentially ABS filler dissolved in butanone. It's intended as a gap-filling adhesive for ABS components, which the butanone bonds with. On other materials as the butanone evaporates it would leave behind a plain layer of ABS. On wood grain it penetrates the grain and embeds ABS in the grain, but it's not going to do that on resin-printed components. My guess is that the deposited ABS would rub off.

 

But I don't know without trying it. You don't have to buy Polypipe to do a test -- just dissolve some scrap ABS (or HIPS) in butanone. :)

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited by martin_wynne
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Exactoscale used to have their turnout kit instructions on their old website along with other materials. These are now not available. As these items are now only available via the S4 soc and the EMGS I assume the instructions are in their own work sheets

 

C&L instructions are supplied with kits, not components. However Phil is available to answer any questions and I guess if asked will enclose a set of instructions with an order

 

I guess some of us are guilty of assuming everyone now knows

 

1 Butatone is the recommended solvent

2 Most who use MEK actually use MEK PAK which is a slightly different solvent

3 When using solvent to join plastic to ply you flood the joint with solvent, which is the opposite to building a plastic kit where you use solvent sparingly

4 The bond between plastic and ply is not a strong one (which many prefer)

 

 

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1 hour ago, Haggerleases said:

Martin. 

I'm normally an instruction follower of the highest order, but I've looked in vain on the Exactoscale website for any instructions on gluing chairs. Where on the site are you seeing this? 

 

@Haggerleases

 

Hi,

 

If possible, it's a good idea to have been around this hobby for 60 years. :)

 

The Exactoscale company was originally founded by the late Bernard Weller. When he introduced the injection-moulded chairs, he wrote detailed instructions for their use, which included the use of Polypipe on plywood timbers.

 

After his death the Exactoscale company went through several hands, including an arrangement with the previous owner of C&L. The present situation is difficult to fathom. The company still exists and has a web site, but appears not to trade. Its products are available only via the EMGS, Scalefour and S7 societies, to their members only.

 

Where the original Exactoscale instructions have got to in the process, I haven't the faintest idea, but I assumed they would still be available from the present suppliers of Exactoscale products. Exactoscale always had a strong association with the Scalefour Society, and I suspect the Polypipe instructions are still in the Society's Digest Sheets, which are online to their members. I will have a look.

 

If I've got the history wrong, apologies. Memory is fading fast. :( 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

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C&L, Exactoscale track and the P4 track company all had one thing in common, Len Newman. It was Len that introduced plastic chirs made from ABS platic. Mek Pak won't stick ABS very well which was why Butananoe was recommended and Len used to sell it with the chairs. We did try Plastic Weld but found this too aggressive and it deformed the chairs if overdone.

Edited by Paul Cram
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@Haggerleases

 

Hi,

 

Found the original instructions text, apparently written for Exactoscale by Russ Elliott:

 

'Polypipe' is a commercial solvent gel used by plumbers for welding plastic pipes and tubes.

It can be brushed, sparingly, over wooden timbers, and will impregnate the wooden surface, to aid subsequent solvent bonding of plastic components.

A wipe of ordinary solvent onto the wood before applying Polypipe, or diluting the Polypipe with normal solvent, will aid the impregnation.

Bostik PVC Weld Cement M5417 is an equivalent to Polypipe.

 

I can't find Polypipe in the Digest Sheets, but there is a whole forum topic about it from 2010 which is public (from which the above):

 

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=818&p=4787

 

Including the reported comment from Bernard Weller: "we didn't know where people would be using the product so we had to recommend something that was absolutely 100% going to work".

 

Like many forum topics, it starts off with good info, which then gets muddied with misinformation from others. You want the Polypipe adhesive cement, not the pre-cleaner.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited by martin_wynne
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22 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

@Haggerleases

 

Hi,

 

If possible, it's a good idea to have been around this hobby for 60 years. :)

 

The Exactoscale company was originally founded by the late Bernard Weller. When he introduced the injection-moulded chairs, he wrote detailed instructions for their use, which included the use of Polypipe on plywood timbers.

 

After his death the Exactoscale company went through several hands, including an arrangement with the previous owner of C&L. The present situation is difficult to fathom. The company still exists and has a web site, but appears not to trade. Its products are available only via the EMGS, Scalefour and S7 societies, to their members only.

 

Where the original Exactoscale instructions have got to in the process, I haven't the faintest idea, but I assumed they would still be available from the present suppliers of Exactoscale products. Exactoscale always had a strong association with the Scalefour Society, and I suspect the Polypipe instructions are still in the Society's Digest Sheets, which are online to their members. I will have a look.

 

If I've got the history wrong, apologies. Memory is fading fast. :( 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

My memories of the  plastic chairs differ slightly, though my knowledge of the early years is very limited

 

Initially the range started as K & L, I believe Len Newman was in a partnership in this company, they also produced a brick building system and a plastic tree kits. I understand the partnership changed or was dissolved and the name changed to C&L with Len running it

 

The business changed hands, first I think with Brian Lewis owning it, then Peter Llewellyn  followed by Phil Reid who now owns and runs it

 

As you said Bernard Weller started Exactoscale, I was told Len did quite a lot of work on the products for Bernard. Taking the business over in the end

 

Len developed the Exactoscale track system with Andrew Jukes. A range of Turnouts, crossings and slips were made available under the name of the P4 Track Company brand, Exactoscale selling track bases (chaired & un-chaired), chairs (2,3,4 bolt, LSWR chairs & ST baseplates) in addition to slide chairs they supplied a range of special chairs used in the P4 Track company Kits, Exactoscale also produced a range of P4 wheels were produced. After a few years C&L under Pete took over the distribution of the range, though the P4 kits were not available for long, the range transferred to Phil Reid, but after a year or so the distribution was taken back inhouse by Mr Jukes, after a period distribution was taken over by the Scale four, EMGS and Scale 7 societies who still distribute them 

 

Under Bernard Exactoscale sold an excellent product which in my mind has never been equalled, a turnout operating unit. Absolutely stunning piece of kit 

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The partnership was in fact as I understand a marital one, which didn't last. As far as I can recollect there was another owner inbetween Brian Lewis and Len but cannot remember the name at the moment.

 

The Exactoscale Tortoise adapter TOU at the moment is still available if you are a member of Scalefour Society but nowehere else as far as I know.

Edited by Stephen Freeman
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45 minutes ago, Stephen Freeman said:

The partnership was in fact as I understand a marital one, which didn't last. As far as I can recollect there was another owner inbetween Brian Lewis and Len but cannot remember the name at the moment.

 

The Exactoscale Tortoise adapter TOU at the moment is still available if you are a member of Scalefour Society but nowehere else as far as I know.

 

Stephen

 

Thanks for filling in some blanks

 

I was not talking about the Tortoise adaptor, but the original TOU by Exactoscale

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Some how the anodised bushes insulate the rails, the operating arm can be set in any 360 degree position. They were also available in 00 gauge

 

Edit

 

I have just noticed that in the packet to the right, the red anodised bushes had changed to plastic bushes

Edited by hayfield
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I have and also seen also seen on the second hand market timbers and chairs sold by Alan Gibson and timbers in Model Express packs, both exactly the same as C&L, even down to the original K&L instructions in the pack !!

 

Also sprues of plastic chairs from I think the 3mm Society and the S gauge Society in the same C&L format.

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K&L was Kay and Len Newman. When they divorced it became C&L and was subsequently sold to John Pottinger who sold it to Brian Lewis. Exactoscale was producing wagon and locomotive parts and then Len started producing track parts for Bernard Weller under the Exactoscale brand. The P4 track company was an arrangement between Andrew Jukes and Len Newman. When Bernard Weller passed away Len aquired the Exactoscale range of parts and redeveloped the wagon underframes. The exactoscale parts were separate to C&L and were only licensed to C&L.

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On 18/07/2021 at 12:07, Haggerleases said:

Worthwhile discussion guys, thanks ever so much for your comments one and all. Not easy being a beginner, you see all this amazing track and you think 'hmm, I'll give that a go, can't be too hard' and before you know it you're grinding your teeth in frustration. Having actually worked with a Pway gang in the early 90's I have to say the big stuff is a lot easier. Am sure the end result will be worth the pain. 

I count myself as a beginner as well. I have built four or five points with varying degrees of sucess.  I would like to come with a suggestion. I have decided that in the fiurture I will make a  test bed with a few lengths of flexible track than can be attached to points . I thought that my points were fine. I tested by pushing trucks and coaches through them with no problems. But after placing them on the layout have had all sorts of problems with trains that derail, short circuit and so on. So for future points I will test that longer rakes of stock being pulled and pushed by locomotives in all directions works fine before laying in the points place. I always wait with painting and balasting until  I am certain that they work as intended.

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3 hours ago, hayfield said:

I have and also seen also seen on the second hand market timbers and chairs sold by Alan Gibson and timbers in Model Express packs, both exactly the same as C&L, even down to the original K&L instructions in the pack !!


Alan Gibson was originally involved in bringing Lens track parts to market if I remember correctly. They were marketed/sold by him and it was only in later years that distribution changed but I forget when - like so much else! I just have hazy memories of Alan stuffing some in my hands with a ‘get a load of this’, or maybe it was MRJ 0, or both. A Scaleforum setting seems to stick in my mind for some reason. How time flies………

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I also remember a chaired bullhead track product trialled by Ultrascale. I recall seeing Brian Rogers with some pre-production samples on an Ultrascale exhibition stand. This pre-dated Len Newman's chairs and looked very promising. The actual details are hazy, and I don't think it ever reached the market. Probably Brian was too busy with the wheels and gears to have time for it. At that time the only plastic-based bullhead track available was SMP Scaleway. Next on the scene was Ratio EMTrack.

 

Martin.

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