Direction Of Spurs

[Smardale]

Hello there!

 

I'm aiming to create a layout heavily inspired by the disused NER lines in Cumbria. It will be a long end to end layout that wraps around a room - consisting of one junction station (inspired by Kirkby Stephen East) and then two smaller local stations.

I've read pages and pages of topics in this forum, and it never ceases to amaze me how knowledgeable people are in regards to operating procedures in the steam era.

So here is my question!

What direction should I have my spurs and how would they operate?



Above is Musgrave Station on the Eden Valley Railway. I'm probably going to end up with a very similar station.

How would wagons leave the spur? If the goods have come from the South (which I believe would be the ideal case on a layout as a train could reverse into the spur and drop them off) then what would be the procedure to collect them? Would a train heading north pick them up, take them to a passing loop and then bring them back down south that way?

Local goods traffic will start at my biggest station, so I want things to make sense operationally. Like the example above, my freight will be coming from the South (with empties returning there). 

Thanks in advance and sorry if this is a stupid question.
 

[Siberian Snooper]

The pick up goods would drop off and pick up, heading up the map, North? all similar sidings would also be dealt with in that direction, sidings in the other direction would be dealt with on the other leg of the journey. 

 

 

[DCB]

Generally a goods heading North would shunt the siding, extract the departing wagons, empty coals mainly,  sort out those still required, mainly part loaded coals but also empties awaiting a load, and then add the arriving full wagons.  If the station is down the end of the order of marshalling it may mean the whole train less guards van has to enter the siding to collect empties or leave fulls.  Depending on a whole raft of factors, the wagons may reappear heading South or have been past heading south previously, or not. If its a dead end branch logically the wagons will come past in the other direction ant some stage but on through routes they may well not.   The GWR had a one way pick up goods from Swindon to Gloucester out via the MSWJR and home via the Stroud Valley.

What didn't happen in 99% of cases was the wagons being picked up by one train and replacements left by another.  The fun model wise is in shunting so the right wagons are left suitably placed for unloading or loading while the right wagons are taken away.   Even less likely was a Tank loco turning up with three wagons.  For a star oop norf pick up goods was usually an 0-6-0 tender loco job.  The GWR almost always used a Pannier Tank,  except when they used a Prairie or a Dean Goods or a 28XX, even a Castle occasionally, actually pretty much anything except a King or a Diesel Railcar

[The Stationmaster]

Two ways of doing it - depending on which way the trip freight was heading, as already mentioned.  If a train was heading north any wagons for the short spur would be left on the 'open' end of what was detached (i.e. the end nearest the short spur) and would then be oinch barred into the spur.

 

Moving a wagon using a pnich bar a was a very simple, and widespread, process - the bar was placed under a wheeel and levered upwards to cause the wheel to start to rotate.  Onvce the wagon was movin it was easy for a couple of men to keep it moving on level track - in fact the hardest task was trying to keep down the speed as monetum built up and then stopping it if it started to 'get away'.

 

Alternatively that short spur culd be directly shounted by a train heading in the opposite direction - say to drop off or collect a horsebox etc.

 

The key design factor with any sort of goods yard is to relate the number/lemgth of sidings to the expected level of traffic and orientate them for easy shunting from the running line.  The latter wasn't always possible in some places t so a spur would be needed to allow them to be shunted by a loco if lots of traffic was likely.  Pinch barring one or two wagons was one thing, shunting a yard that way was beyond ridiculous.   Best idea is to have a look at track layouts serving communities of the size you have in mind for your model to serve.

[Smardale]

Thank you all very much - you've answered everything I wanted to know!

[Axlebox]

At Musgrave full coal wagons would have come from the Kirkby Stephen direction and reversed in, with empties being removed first. The little kick back may have held the odd wagon at times which would have been dropped off with the coal and then chained back. It would be collected using the same method. The NE had some cramped little yards where chaining wagons around was the only option, Witton Le Wear in Weardale was shunted this way right into the 1960s.

[Stubby47]

On 15/07/2021 at 10:29, The Stationmaster said:

Moving a wagon using a pinch bar a was a very simple, and widespread, process - the bar was placed under a wheel and levered upwards to cause the wheel to start to rotate.  Once the wagon was moving it was easy for a couple of men to keep it moving on level track - in fact the hardest task was trying to keep down the speed as momentum built up and then stopping it if it started to 'get away'.

 

 

If you can automate a working 4mm bloke with a pinch bar, you'll make a fortune !!

[KingEdwardII]

I am continually amazed by the scale of goods facilities provided at what would appear to be sleepy rural locations. Few seem to be as rudimentary as Musgrave station appears in the map posted above.

 

Looking at the single track Cheddar Valley / East Somerset line from Yatton to Witham via Wells in Somerset, many of the stations, even those serving villages that in the 1930s had only between 1,000 and 2,000 inhabitants, had 4 or more sidings, loops (in some cases loops specifically for goods), goods shed, loading dock, cattle pens, mileage siding(s). And that was in cases where there was no specific local industry. Add a works of some kind and facilities mushroomed.

 

Yours, Mike.

[5BarVT]

16 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

 

If you can automate a working 4mm bloke with a pinch bar, you'll make a fortune !!

Jack Dugdale would have wanted to have a go!

Paul.

[KingEdwardII]

16 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

automate a working 4mm bloke with a pinch bar

I want the sound version, please, whistling and profanities included... 

 

Yours,  Mike.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

When I read the title of this thread, my first thought was 'mid-table'.

[TJ52]

Snap!

 

Terry

[Siberian Snooper]

1 hour ago, KingEdwardII said:

I want the sound version, please, whistling and profanities included... 

 

Yours,  Mike.

 

Profanity is only required when what you're moving doesn't stop, because you can't get to the brake quickly enough.

 

 

[Smardale]

On 20/08/2021 at 15:32, Axlebox said:

At Musgrave full coal wagons would have come from the Kirkby Stephen direction and reversed in, with empties being removed first. The little kick back may have held the odd wagon at times which would have been dropped off with the coal and then chained back. It would be collected using the same method. The NE had some cramped little yards where chaining wagons around was the only option, Witton Le Wear in Weardale was shunted this way right into the 1960s.

 

Thanks for that! I'm really interested in the Eden Valley / Stainmore Lines. If you have any information about Smardale then I'd love to hear it as I'm choosing to base a layout heavily influenced on that station in 1950 (It closed in 1952 if I'm not mistaken). I like that it's a single track section of a busy route - and also a space-saver as I can build a goods yard opposite the station without having a second platform.

I know there were coal and coke trains from East to West and also the Newcastle to Blackpool excursions, but I don't really know what locomotive power was used. I've also read that the mineral trains from the North East often had as many as 30 wagons that were often double-headed with a banker - but I've always presumed that the banker would drop off at either Stainmore Summit or Kirkby Stephen. I have lots of questions like this, so any other information would be grand! (Or a suggestion of reading material that you think would be beneficial to me).

I'm also wondering if the long headshunt at Smardale was also used as a refuge siding on occasion?



 

On 20/08/2021 at 19:40, KingEdwardII said:

I am continually amazed by the scale of goods facilities provided at what would appear to be sleepy rural locations. Few seem to be as rudimentary as Musgrave station appears in the map posted above.

Same here my friend. It's why I spend hours browsing old maps. Smardale itself wasn't even a village - just a few farms, isolated houses and a 15th Century Hall. Yet it has two sidings and a station! 

[Axlebox]

Hi Smardale, the best place to start is the late peter Walton's "The Stainmore and Eden Valley railways", published by OPC. I've seen it go for silly money on ebay, so just hunt around in railway bookshops and you'll find a copy. "The Stainmore Railway" (Dalesman) by Ken Hoole is worth having, not a lot on Smardale, but it covers the South Durham and Lancashire Union quite well. Other than that try joining the North Eastern Railway Association and asking in their chatroom, or the Cumbrian Railway Association who also have an online chat presence...The preservation group at Kirkby Stephen are worth joining as their newsletter can be a good read, the group at Warcop on the Eden Valley Railway are also a very worthy cause.

I've always seen the siding at Smardale described as just a 'siding', there is no reason a train in trouble couldn't be shunted in there until rescue arrives, however its not that far to either Kirkby Stephen or Sandy Bank/Ravestonedale and the double track sections.

Peter Walton has a couple of signaling diagrams in his book that should help, the signal box was originally at the east end of the station before a new one was built at the west end, and then promptly closed!

You won't find that many pictures of Smardale station, I've been looking for 40 years and come up with perhaps a dozen. The station used to be a holiday home for a family from Leeds and it was a fantastic time capsule, they had a wonderfully old picture of the station with the newly built S&C in the back ground...its the only picture I've seen with 'proper' goods wagons in the yard.

By 1952 the line was an early version of a 'paytrain' with the guard collecting the fares as his one coach trundled from Kirkby Stephen to Tebay and back. On Fridays you did get the Ulverston to Durham and back Durham Miners Association train passing which spiced things up a bit and of course on Saturdays you got the Blackpool trains (not sure when they restarted after the war). On the Freight side in 1952 it was a mix of old and new with exNER J21s and J25s and brand new LMR 2mts. The working appendix for the line prescribes what locos were allowed over Stainmore with which loads. By 1953 BR Standard 2mts started to appear and then in 1954 BR 3mts and 4mts and LM 4mts were allowed (according to Hoole). The coke traffic through Smardale was a little different to that over Stainmore as none of the bridges here had weight restrictions so trains from the east were regularly combined at Kirkby Stephen. In 1955 2 Q6s arrived to run between Tebay and Kirkby Stephen (between the wars Q5s had been employed)...however after only a few weeks they had come to grief at Smardale and run off down the embankment just west of the station...(the remains of this derailment were still there 50 years later with a rather nicely smashed up wooden 13 tonner only recently being finally removed for preservation - not that there was much left of it). The Q6s went back over Stainmore to Darlington for repair, never to return. At the time of the derailment the yard and siding at Smardale was in use for storing old hopper wagons, and their are some nice colour pictures out there from this time.

I've rattled on enough, good luck with the project. I always thought a goods loop rather than a siding would make for a lot more interesting layout of Smardale...

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Axlebox

[Smardale]

16 hours ago, Axlebox said:

I've rattled on enough.

You say that, but I loved reading what you wrote! I knew about the recovered wagons but I didn't know that the crash involved the only Q6 locomotives to run on the route (63355 and 63373 apparently). What an amazing tidbit. 

I'll have to keep an eye out for Peter Walton's book. I own 'The Eden Valley Railway' by Robert Western, and if it's anything like that then it'll be a joy to read. I'll look into your other suggestions as well. Thank you so much for such an informative post. 

I've just been looking on the Stainmore 150 website and they have a lovely picture of a Miner's Special crossing Smardale Gill viaduct. I'm really pondering what to do now. I spend hours in Anyrail creating variations of Smardale Station and surrounding area. All part of the fun I guess! 

 

[Axlebox]

Just seen these...

 

https://cumbrianrailways.zenfolio.com/p349676717

 

A couple of nice pictures of Smardale in there...

 

[Smardale]

1 hour ago, Axlebox said:

Just seen these...

 

https://cumbrianrailways.zenfolio.com/p349676717

 

A couple of nice pictures of Smardale in there...

 

Even though I'd searched for Smardale on that website, there were actually quite a few pictures in that gallery that I hadn't seen! So thank you for that.

 

I am a little confused though! And I'm hoping you know the answer..

There's a picture (link) of a J25 leaving Ravenstonedale station in 1952 and moving onto the single line to Kirkby Stephen East. However I was under the impression that the track was doubled up until Sandy Bank. I also don't see any crossover on the map at Ravenstonedale Station under the bridge.



I don't suppose you know the answer to this?

The map I've shown here is from the turn of the century, and so I'm wondering that a potential answer may be that they did away with the signal box at Sandy Bank (which Google tells me closed in 1931) and lifted the double track section up to it - putting in a new crossover that the Ravenstonedale signalman could see instead?

Annoyingly if the signal box was a few hundred metres south it would have been called 'Badger Hill' which I think we can all agree is a better name.. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Smardale

[KingEdwardII]

OK, Kirkby Stephen was a junction, but the town itself only has about 1,800 population even today. The extensive facilities as shown in this picture are astonishing:

 

https://cumbrianrailways.zenfolio.com/p349676717/h15951148#h15951148

 

...and confirmed by the signal box diagrams for Kirkby Stephen East and Kirkby Stephen West (yes, the place had 2 boxes!!):

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lner/E689.gif

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lner/E691.gif

 

I am sure that if one of us modelled the junction between 2 single lines as at Kirkby Stephen West, most folk would think we were pulling their leg. It is extraordinarily complex. Completely separate facilities for Mineral and Passenger workings - let's remember that the line east of Kirkby was only a regular double track. Plus a track labelled "Independent" ?!? The only surprise to me is that there are only 2 passenger platforms (up/down) - no passenger loop or bay.

 

The bloke operating the West box must have had his work cut out since the numbers of both signals and turnouts that had to be set for most movements seem prodigious. Facing points all over the place...

 

I am also not convinced that the 2 diagrams actually marry up - there is an extra through line at the bottom of the West diagram that does not seem to have a clear counterpart on the East diagram...

 

The pointwork seen in the picture (it's the East box end) is also something of a marvel, cramming in connections every which way.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[Smardale]

3 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

...and confirmed by the signal box diagrams for Kirkby Stephen East and Kirkby Stephen West (yes, the place had 2 boxes!!):

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lner/E689.gif

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lner/E691.gif

Hi Mike! I don't have permission to view these apparently - do I need to be a member/register?

The track labelled 'independent' may be referring to the sidings regarding Hartley Quarry which was just to the East.



It's always confused me as to why there were only two platforms. I'd presume the Eden Valley Railway would have it's own bay or something!
 

[melmerby]

9 minutes ago, Smardale said:

Hi Mike! I don't have permission to view these apparently - do I need to be a member/register?

The track labelled 'independent' may be referring to the sidings regarding Hartley Quarry which was just to the East.



It's always confused me as to why there were only two platforms. I'd presume the Eden Valley Railway would have it's own bay or something!
 

Go direct to the site and navigate to Kirkby Stephen:

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/LNERDiagrams.htm

 

I don't think you can hotlink to diagrams but you can view them.

Edited September 9, 2021 by melmerby

[KingEdwardII]

2 hours ago, Smardale said:

Hi Mike! I don't have permission to view these apparently - do I need to be a member/register?

I'm not a member at s-r-s.org.uk and the links just work for me, so I apologise if you're having problems using the links - I was simply not aware of there being an issue.

 

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I don't think you can hotlink to diagrams but you can view them.

OK, that should allow folks to get to the diagrams - inconvenient, but doable - thank you! It's a strange use of the WWW to have a unique address for some object, which then cannot be used to view a copy of that object, given that there don't appear to be any security restrictions in place. That's is what URLs are for!

 

I am sure that there are good explanations as to why the track layout was as it was - but I wonder if anyone today knows what they are!

 

Yours,  Mike.

[Axlebox]

4 hours ago, Smardale said:

Even though I'd searched for Smardale on that website, there were actually quite a few pictures in that gallery that I hadn't seen! So thank you for that.

 

I am a little confused though! And I'm hoping you know the answer..

There's a picture (link) of a J25 leaving Ravenstonedale station in 1952 and moving onto the single line to Kirkby Stephen East. However I was under the impression that the track was doubled up until Sandy Bank. I also don't see any crossover on the map at Ravenstonedale Station under the bridge.



I don't suppose you know the answer to this?

The map I've shown here is from the turn of the century, and so I'm wondering that a potential answer may be that they did away with the signal box at Sandy Bank (which Google tells me closed in 1931) and lifted the double track section up to it - putting in a new crossover that the Ravenstonedale signalman could see instead?

Annoyingly if the signal box was a few hundred metres south it would have been called 'Badger Hill' which I think we can all agree is a better name.. 

Indeed, Sandy Bank Signalbox closed in the 1930s and the single line section was extended back to Ravenstonedale (Rassendle), so the crossing was probably put in then. The reason the single line was retained rather than doubled like the rest of the Stainmore line may have had something to do with traffic splitting at Kirkby Stephen with coking coals going to Barrow and Millom via Tebay and to Workington via Cockermouth...however the local legend was it was retained to prevent the LNWR from getting running powers of Stainmore and buying a stake hold in West Hartlepool docks!

[Smardale]

37 minutes ago, Axlebox said:

Indeed, Sandy Bank Signalbox closed in the 1930s and the single line section was extended back to Ravenstonedale (Rassendle), so the crossing was probably put in then. The reason the single line was retained rather than doubled like the rest of the Stainmore line may have had something to do with traffic splitting at Kirkby Stephen with coking coals going to Barrow and Millom via Tebay and to Workington via Cockermouth...however the local legend was it was retained to prevent the LNWR from getting running powers of Stainmore and buying a stake hold in West Hartlepool docks!

Fascinating! I've always wondered why Smardale Gill wasn't widened yet the Merrygill and Podgill viaducts were. I hope that legend is true 

[Smardale]

3 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

I'm not a member at s-r-s.org.uk and the links just work for me, so I apologise if you're having problems using the links - I was simply not aware of there being an issue.

No worries Mike! What a brilliant website.