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Help needed, simple single slip insulfrog wiring


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As I prefer code 100 rail I decided to use an insulfrog single slip crossing.   The instructions on the back of the header card show insulated rail joiners and wiring for frog polarity.  As the insulfrog  frog is unpowered then I assume the instructions given relate to an electrofrog installation.  My intended installation is to insulate all rails in the crossing from the rest of the track and independently power the crossing.   From reading I have seen reference to treating the insulfrog as if it were an electrofrog installation,  however,  with an electrically dead frog why does the Peco header card give confusing information?  Does the insulfrog single slip really need to be isolated from the rest of the layout?

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I found this response to a question on the reliability of the single and double slip crossings.

 

Quote:  ".................................  An "insulfrog" double-slip will create a back-feed of current to all routes unless it is insulated either with plastic joiners or by the use of insulfrog points or both.  ..................................."

 

 

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I also found this thread where the OP seems to be as confused as I am regarding wiring the crossing.  I prefer analogue but may decide on DCC at some point in the future.  As shown on the packaging my intention is to use two controllers so understand why the crossing would need to be insulated.

 

 

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There are three possible routes through a single slip. It should be wired so that all the rails involved are live for each route.

Drawing up a 'truth table' will help.

The switching may be complicated, but ensuring both tie-bars more together will simplify matters.

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On 20/07/2021 at 09:44, GWR-fan said:

As I prefer code 100 rail I decided to use an insulfrog single slip crossing.   The instructions on the back of the header card show insulated rail joiners and wiring for frog polarity.  As the insulfrog  frog is unpowered then I assume the instructions given relate to an electrofrog installation.  My intended installation is to insulate all rails in the crossing from the rest of the track and independently power the crossing.   From reading I have seen reference to treating the insulfrog as if it were an electrofrog installation,  however,  with an electrically dead frog why does the Peco header card give confusing information?  Does the insulfrog single slip really need to be isolated from the rest of the layout?

Here's what I did with my Double-Slips (and Single Slips). Note that I only put IRJs on the frog, as this helped power any short lengths of rail either side of the Slip:

ds.jpg.4a94bec35095b49231d393b2956ce7a6.jpg

The little bit of veroboard (stripboard) means that I only had to supply a 2-core power wire to the vicinity of the Double Slip. The microswitches are operated by the arm of the servo being used to operate the appropriate switch.

 

Hope this helps

Ian

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Ian,

        many thanks.  I need to experiment with my single slip to find out why it seems so complicated to wire up. Is it necessary to power the short rail sections forming the frog?

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43 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

Ian,

        many thanks.  I need to experiment with my single slip to find out why it seems so complicated to wire up. Is it necessary to power the short rail sections forming the frog?

If all of your locos have pickups on all axles, and your shortest loco is longer than the frog of the slip, then in theory no. However, if you want to ensure good, smooth, running through the slip then powering the frog is essential.

 

I found that the wiring is really not that complicated and, as my diagram showed, it can be reduced to a 2 wire input. Once you understand one slip, it makes a junction a bit easier to understand and wire. Here is my Leicester Line Junction. Yes, there is a baseboard joint in the middle, just to make it a bit harder:

20201029_102959_resize.jpg.8426e1a8f5a5701d7d811b2cb1747fa3.jpg

 

If you want to see the underside of the two baseboards, let me know.

 

Ian

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9 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

There are three possible routes through a single slip. It should be wired so that all the rails involved are live for each route.

Drawing up a 'truth table' will help.

The switching may be complicated, but ensuring both tie-bars more together will simplify matters.

 

Both tiebars don't always move together on a single slip.

(Going OT - doing this on an electrofrog single slip will cause a short)

There is a single slip near me, where one part of the slip works in tandem with a point to form a trailing crossover.

The other blade is then moved to make a straight route to access a siding.

This was (still is)  a very common arrangement to avoid a facing point as access to sidings - certainly on Midland and L&Y/LNW routes and the example I cite is still in hourly use today as a crossover and twice daily for access to the sidings.

 

To prevent the short with a single slip, operation of it is by two individually controlled motors and they have to be set as though they were controlling a  double slip. There is a thread elsewhere about this.

 

 

Edited by newbryford
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5 hours ago, ISW said:

Here's what I did with my Double-Slips (and Single Slips). Note that I only put IRJs on the frog, as this helped power any short lengths of rail either side of the Slip:

ds.jpg.4a94bec35095b49231d393b2956ce7a6.jpg

The little bit of veroboard (stripboard) means that I only had to supply a 2-core power wire to the vicinity of the Double Slip. The microswitches are operated by the arm of the servo being used to operate the appropriate switch.

 

Hope this helps

Ian

This has me confused, what is the green wire connected to on the insulfrog slip?

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17 minutes ago, Free At Last said:

This has me confused, what is the green wire connected to on the insulfrog slip?

Pete,

Ah, that's one step I omitted to mention. Oops.

 

On the underside of an insulfrog turnout, there are two jumper wires between the 'intermediate rails' and the 'crossing vee rails'. I snipped those, and twisted the two bits together that were affixed to the 'crossing vee rails'. It was to those twisted wires that I soldered the 'green' wires in the diagram, effectively converting the insulfrog into a 'sort of' electrofrog (but for which the 'wing rails' remain unpowered).

 

I hope this clarifies?

Ian

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Thankyou all.  My intention was to throw both tiebars simultaneously,  so hopefully with all tracks fitted with insulated rail joiners,  my wiring should be just two wires to the outer rails (fingers crossed).  As per the Peco header card instructions the power will be by a DPDT switch as the crossing in question will connect two power controller districts.

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1 hour ago, ISW said:

Pete,

Ah, that's one step I omitted to mention. Oops.

 

On the underside of an insulfrog turnout, there are two jumper wires between the 'intermediate rails' and the 'crossing vee rails'. I snipped those, and twisted the two bits together that were affixed to the 'crossing vee rails'. It was to those twisted wires that I soldered the 'green' wires in the diagram, effectively converting the insulfrog into a 'sort of' electrofrog (but for which the 'wing rails' remain unpowered).

 

I hope this clarifies?

Ian

Ok.
I went a little bit further with my code 100 slips...

 

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18 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Both tiebars don't always move together on a single slip.

(Going OT - doing this on an electrofrog single slip will cause a short)

There is a single slip near me, where one part of the slip works in tandem with a point to form a trailing crossover.

The other blade is then moved to make a straight route to access a siding.

This was (still is)  a very common arrangement to avoid a facing point as access to sidings - certainly on Midland and L&Y/LNW routes and the example I cite is still in hourly use today as a crossover and twice daily for access to the sidings.

 

To prevent the short with a single slip, operation of it is by two individually controlled motors and they have to be set as though they were controlling a  double slip. There is a thread elsewhere about this.

 

 

 

Switching an electrofrog will always cause a short unless 'break before make' switches are used (or switch the traction current off - this could be a problem using DCC.)

 

I suggested moving the tie-bars to make things easier on the model. Independent tie-bars will require two extra lines on the truth table....

I'm not an expect on such matters, but I  suspect the prototype operates a single slip with two levers. Can anyone confirm or deny?

Edited by Il Grifone
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18 hours ago, Free At Last said:

Ok.
I went a little bit further with my code 100 slips...

I did see that posting, or at least an equivalent that did the same trick. I even had a go myself on a secondhand SetTrack turnout, but decided that my 'skills' (stop laughing ...) were inadequate for the task. Plus, I had quite a few, expensive, double & single slips to tackle and I just couldn't justify the risk, even if I probably would have been quite good at it by the final slip (and the bin was full of discarded Peco bits).

 

Thankfully, the electrofrog conversion has proved to be an adequate compromise.

Ian

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3 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

 

 

I'm not an expect on such matters, but I  suspect the prototype operates a single slip with two levers. Can anyone confirm or deny?

 

Yes - as I described in my post.

 

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