Insulated frogs or energised...

[AndrueC]

My current layout is built with Peco Setrack (apart from the straights of course). The only problem I've had is with one diamond crossing which because I can't get to has to be painted to prevent shorts. None of my locos (Diesels and one 4-6-2) stall or stutter going over plastic frogs.

 

I'm currently planning my next layout and it will be built out of Peco Streamline. Construction won't start for probably two years but having come up with a design I'm now pondering whether I should stick with insulated frogs or go for energised frogs. I imagine everyone is going to say the latter. But it sounds like additional hassle for (from my point of view) little benefit. I'll concede that having silver frogs instead of black would improve the aesthetics.

 

I first thought of using an auto-reverse or frog juicer but have since realised that if I use the DCC Concepts kit as I intend to for my current layout over winter a lot of the hassle does seem to go away.

 

The new layout has three connected loops so I'm thinking about splitting it into three sections if that makes any difference.

Edited July 20, 2021 by AndrueC

[kevinlms]

Some will tell you that using live frogs are just a wasted effort, others insist on using them to prevent loss of power, permanently or intermittently.

Others have suggested that you cut out the links, solder wires either side, then bridge them out so they work as a dead frog.

The aim of the latter, although it sounds silly, is 2 fold.

 

1/ If it works as dead frog, then you don't need any extra switching.

2/ If the dead frog proves troublesome, you can incorporate switching, by modifying the bridging you added. The difference is that you don't need to cut the links out, because you already have! The advantage is that you can do the required modification, BEFORE you lay the track, rather than ripping it up later, modifying the points and relaying.

 

So you have 3 ways of doing the job, not 2!

[tynewydd]

From a reliability POV, energized is the way to go - but you'll have to weigh the hassle factor against that.

If you are going to use point motors such as the Cobalt, the additional cost for normal turnouts is some extra wire only (rather than a new component such as a juicer) as the switching is onboard the motor.  It is a really only another dropper wire to include and the wire from the bus to the other parts of the switch.  You will need to prepare the points for energized frogs, but once you are underway it is simply repetition.  For diamonds, which have no motors, juicers will needed for live frogs. 

If those loops reverse, you'll need auto-reversers (like a double juicer) to ensure the sections polarity is correct.  When you do that, make sure the isolated loop is long enough to accomodate all the powered parts of the trains so that both ends are not bridging the isolated section to the rest of the layout and so wanting to change polarity at the same time. If not you will have equipment that you can't use on some of your layout. (I'm looking at you, Blue Pullman!!). 

Adam  (256 count)

[RFS]

17 minutes ago, tynewydd said:

For diamonds, which have no motors, juicers will needed for live frogs. 

 

In many cases these can be avoided by using the switches on the point motors connected to the diamonds. For example, with a turnout leading into a diamond the point frog and the diamond frog furthest away require the same polarity so can be connected together. The other diamond can then be switched by the other switch on the Cobalt. 

 

On my layout I have a couple of crossovers so there are two points connected to the diamond. One switch on each point motor manages two frogs which thus covers all requirements. Just have to remember not to have the crossover road set when a train is crossing the other way over the diamond. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by RFS

[ITG]

An added factor can be whether or not you have DCC sound. Sometimes a ‘dead spot’ may not be enough to halt movement, but can interrupt the signal to DCC sound, ie it goes off. With live frogs with power (be that switchers, juicers, built in switches or what have you) it can go along way to eradicating that hiccup.

[AndrueC]

58 minutes ago, ITG said:

An added factor can be whether or not you have DCC sound. Sometimes a ‘dead spot’ may not be enough to halt movement, but can interrupt the signal to DCC sound, ie it goes off. With live frogs with power (be that switchers, juicers, built in switches or what have you) it can go along way to eradicating that hiccup.

Now that's interesting. I don't currently have any sound enabled locos (sadly still uncommon in N gauge). I did have one for a short period of time but it never ran well (if at all) and got sent back to the retailer within a couple of days.

 

I would like to add sound to my future layout (and just about anything else I can think of - it's my second hobby for my eventual retirement).

 

I'm actually going to have stations this time (yes, a loop-de-loop but this time with the pretence of going somewhere useful ) so was thinking of a tannoy system for those as well as train sounds.

Edited July 20, 2021 by AndrueC

[ITG]

Not sure I realised you are in N. I think Peco now do a unifrog, which is somehow both live and dead as a matter of choice. Other than that, I know nothing!

[DCB]

It is a bit counter intuitive but some of the earliest 2 rail points were live frog and some early locos only had one plunger pick up per side.   The awkward points are some Peco where they used a tiny insulated sliver between the two rails at the frog and bridged it for live frog and didn't for insulated.  These short every time a train passes over when wired for DCC whereas the ones with solid plastic blob frogs don't.  A lot of DCC users have dead frog blades as the points no longer make contact due to repeated shorting.

Diamonds are difficult to live frog as you need to switch 4 different rails. I use A 4 pole relay switched by a micro switch on the tie bar on an adjacent point,  a manually operated point.   Quite a fiddly job to be honest.    If you have big plastic blob frogs and 4 wheel pick up with DCC on your locos live frogging probably isn't needed, 3 wheel pick up and those sliver of insulation type frogs it's probably essential to live frog them for all rails live DCC, and everything else sits in the middle,   I always run a Loco with 2 wheel pick up round to test my track it saves lots of hassle later on