Pre 1948 coaching stock remaining in their original liveries after nationalisation.

[TravisM]

I’ve been asked by a friend in the US, after nationalisation in 1948, how long did coaching stock from GWR, SR, LMS and LNER remain in their original liveries until repainted into BR’s corporate livery?

 

Could it be possible for say, a coach from GWR to remain in full GWR livery into the early 50’s?

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

I’ve been asked by a friend in the US, after nationalisation in 1948, how long did coaching stock from GWR, SR, LMS and LNER remain in their original liveries until repainted into BR’s corporate livery?

 

Could it be possible for say, a coach from GWR to remain in full GWR livery into the early 50’s?

 

If you believe in a 7-year repainting cycle, then by June 1952, half of the pre-nationalisation stock would have been repainted and all by the end of 1955. But such a rule of thumb does not take into account the disruption of the war. Also, stock used on more important workings may have had preferential treatment, so pre-nationalisation livery in a top express could well have gone within a couple of years but might linger on much longer on a branch line set. Time to scour the photo albums! (Although these will be much thinner for the 40s/early 50s than for the later 50s/60s, as economic conditions improved.)

 

By "original" liveries, I take you to mean, the livery schemes being applied in the immediate pre-nationalisation years, not the liveries in which vehicles first appeared!

Edited July 20, 2021 by Compound2632

[jim.snowdon]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

If you believe in a 7-year repainting cycle, then by June 1952, half of the pre-nationalisation stock would have been repainted and all by the end of 1955.

This is also supported by pictures of stock in their previous owners livery, with the regional prefix having been added to the number in matching style, the best examples being ex-LNER teak stock, still in teak, with E prefix numbers in the LNER style.

 

[Compound2632]

Another thing: renumbering (cyphering with the regional prefixes and suffixes) probably happened much more quickly, I should think.

 

Hopefully someone who knows will be along shortly, to provide evidence rather than my mere theorising.

 

EDIT: there you go: my post crossed with @jim.snowdon's.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Compound2632

[TravisM]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

By "original" liveries, I take you to mean, the livery schemes being applied in the immediate pre-nationalisation years, not the liveries in which vehicles first appeared!

Sorry, yes I should have pointed that out.  I was told awhile ago that some works were, for a short while, still releasing stock into traffic after nationalisation, in full previous liveries because there had been no directive from regional office’s.

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, jools1959 said:

Sorry, yes I should have pointed that out.  I was told awhile ago that some works were, for a short while, still releasing stock into traffic after nationalisation, in full previous liveries because there had been no directive from regional office’s.

 

I was joking there - I understood perfectly well what you meant. But yes, it took a while for the BR liveries to be decided upon - I think more quickly for carriages than locomotives - but from Essery & Jenkinson's The LMS Coach I gather that carriages were being turned out from Wolverton and Derby in final LMS livery until late 1949.

 

On the other hand, there were some "pre-nationalisation" carriage designs that only ever appeared in BR livery - some of the BR(W) Hawksworth types, I believe. They might better be described as "pre-Mk 1" designs.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Compound2632

[billbedford]

There was a letter sent to all the ex-LNER carriage works which said, in effect, that those carriages which were expected to be withdrawn before their next major refit were to be finished in plain brown rather than the new BR liveries. IIRC the letter was sent around august 1948. 

[Nick C]

I forget the exact numbers (@Graham_Muzmight know), but a fairly substantial proportion of ex-SR stock was still in Malachite in '56, and so went straight to BR green without receiving Crimson & Cream. Stock was generally relettered at the same time as being revarnishes, so there's a lot of photos of stock in Malachite with BR numbering, or with the SR sunshine numbers with the S___S prefix/suffix added in the same typeface.

[jwealleans]

Bill is correct about the brown colour for vehicles with a short expected lifespan.   The latest picture I have of a vehicle undisputably in LNER teak is summer 1956.

[Graham_Muz]

14 minutes ago, Nick C said:

I forget the exact numbers (@Graham_Muzmight know), but a fairly substantial proportion of ex-SR stock was still in Malachite in '56, and so went straight to BR green without receiving Crimson & Cream. Stock was generally relettered at the same time as being revarnishes, so there's a lot of photos of stock in Malachite with BR numbering, or with the SR sunshine numbers with the S___S prefix/suffix added in the same typeface.

 

It was noted in 1955 when discussions were taking place regarding the change from crimson and cream to maroon elsewhere and to a green on SR that 1,600 vehicles , nearly half the steam stock was still in varnished green.

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, Nick C said:

I forget the exact numbers (@Graham_Muzmight know), but a fairly substantial proportion of ex-SR stock was still in Malachite in '56, and so went straight to BR green without receiving Crimson & Cream. Stock was generally relettered at the same time as being revarnishes, so there's a lot of photos of stock in Malachite with BR numbering, or with the SR sunshine numbers with the S___S prefix/suffix added in the same typeface.

 

I do think enthusiasm for the new liveries varied between regions. My feeling is that LMR was all for it (once Wolverton got plum & spilt milk out of its system) since they were a local idea - the LMS had toyed with red and cream liveries. the ScR went along with the new liveries, as they had in 1923. The WR complied out of sheer huffiness, the SR tried to dodge the question, while the ER had large reserves of cheap brown paint...

 

23 minutes ago, Nick C said:

a fairly substantial proportion of ex-SR stock was still in Malachite in '56, 

 

7 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

The latest picture I have of a vehicle undisputably in LNER teak is summer 1956.

 

Which very roughly fits my theory, if the new liveries were only decided on at the end of 1949, on a seven-year cycle half the stock would have been repainted by mid-1953 and all by 1958...

Edited July 21, 2021 by Compound2632

[TravisM]

He’s just asked (I don’t know why he doesn’t just sign up for here), he’s bought a Hornby R3747 A4 Mallard in express blue as he’s modelling the year of his birth, 1950 and wants to know if it would look okay with some LNER “teak” stock

[Wickham Green too]

I think most on here would agree that Mallard would look very okay in blue with teak !

 

( er ........... but R3747 wouldn't ! )

[62613]

8 hours ago, jools1959 said:

He’s just asked (I don’t know why he doesn’t just sign up for here), he’s bought a Hornby R3747 A4 Mallard in express blue as he’s modelling the year of his birth, 1950 and wants to know if it would look okay with some LNER “teak” stock

Rule 1!

[TravisM]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I think most on here would agree that Mallard would look very okay in blue with teak !

 

( er ........... but R3747 wouldn't ! )

Sorry, I meant R3737

[Forward!]

On 21/07/2021 at 22:36, jools1959 said:

Sorry, I meant R3737

 

Mallard wore BR Express blue from September 1949 to July 1952. But it's worth noting that in 1950, the LNER's primary East Coast Main Line express trains were using Thompson steel-sided stock. I'm not best placed to comment further, but depending on how interested your friend is in depicting an accurate 1950 'The Capitals Limited' or 'Flying Scotsman' train formation, I'm sure someone on here would help him select the right stock. 

There's a good photograph of the 1949 Capitals Limited on Steve Banks website here- https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/390-lner-thompson-gangwayed-1. The train is still wearing imitation teak finish and the loco is wearing BR express blue.

 

So I would advise your friend that if he's only looking for a general representation- a Hornby Mallard in Express blue hauling a rake of Bachmann 'teak' Thompson carriages would be generally quite appropriate.

 

Will

Edited July 23, 2021 by Forward!