New GWR iron mink

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

The strategy with this latest venture seems to be that there is only a limited market for wagons at silly prices, so we'll produce them by 3D printing because that way we can do a short run.

 

The capital to do the subject justice is apparently not there, but there'll be a quick killing, nonetheless.

 

That seems to me unreasonable. They've got a new technique and are experimenting with it; the Iron Mink is a challenging subject - surface finish, fine thin details such as the T-iron framing - so they try to meet that challenge. They are presumably charging a price that gives them some reasonable return. As has been said, no one is under any obligation to buy but if some choose to do so, that's their affair. 

 

Is it so very unreasonable a price? I note that the listed price for various Bachmann 12 T vans is in the £26 - £29 range. Most of those are also covered by kits in the Parkside range at half the price. One makes one's choice. 

 

But I still hold that Rails are stretching credulity in offering the Iron Mink in BR grey with black number panel. It seems to me that that is not a "prototype literate" model. 

[cctransuk]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That seems to me unreasonable. They've got a new technique and are experimenting with it; the Iron Mink is a challenging subject - surface finish, fine thin details such as the T-iron framing - so they try to meet that challenge. They are presumably charging a price that gives them some reasonable return. As has been said, no one is under any obligation to buy but if some choose to do so, that's their affair. 

 

Is it so very unreasonable a price? I note that the listed price for various Bachmann 12 T vans is in the £26 - £29 range. Most of those are also covered by kits in the Parkside range at half the price. One makes one's choice. 

 

But I still hold that Rails are stretching credulity in offering the Iron Mink in BR grey with black number panel. It seems to me that that is not a "prototype literate" model. 

 

I refer my honourable friend to my previous posting.

 

Why use 3D printing for a popular subject when others can produce less popular subjects by injection moulding for a third of the price?

 

Flog a few expensive 3D printed Mink Ds, then who will do a proper model at a sensible price?

 

Sorry - I still reckon it's all about a quick buck.

 

CJI.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I refer my honourable friend to my previous posting.

 

Why use 3D printing for a popular subject when others can produce less popular subjects by injection moulding for a third of the price?

 

Flog a few expensive 3D printed Mink Ds, then who will do a proper model at a sensible price?

 

Sorry - I still reckon it's all about a quick buck.

 

CJI.

 

One could, for example, offer a few dozen hand-built etched-brass Iron Minks for sale at maybe £200 each. Would such an action be open to the same criticism?

[cctransuk]

38 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

One could, for example, offer a few dozen hand-built etched-brass Iron Minks for sale at maybe £200 each. Would such an action be open to the same criticism?

 

No - because you'd be mad to try it!

 

The Rails project is simply picking off low-hanging fruit, and leaving the rest of the potential crop to wither on the tree.

 

CJI.

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, cctransuk said:

The Rails project is simply picking off low-hanging fruit, and leaving the rest of the potential crop to wither on the tree.

 

That's capitalism for you. 

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

..... but as one of a number of people who have worked fairly hard over some 3 years to help develop a pioneer new line of RTR wagons ....

 

So - a not entirely disinterested perspective.

 

I respect your entitlement to express your views, but I exercise my right to do so as well; without being the subject of insult and invective.

 

..... and I won't take instruction from you as to when I post here!

 

CJI.

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

No - because you'd be mad to try it!

 

The Rails project is simply picking off low-hanging fruit, and leaving the rest of the potential crop to wither on the tree.

 

CJI.

If you're so convinced that there is a good market there then get in quick and  write up your business plan, pop along to your bank manager and show to him how profitable it would be for both you and the bank so he'll lend you something around £100,000.  Then sit back and place the order for your private yacht which the sales level you expect apparently know is there will no doubt allow you to afford once your models arrive from China and have been snapped up in a matter of weeks.  

 

Hmm, not quite so easy when you have to put your own money where your ideas might happen to be . 

 

PS You previously suggested that a moulded version could be sold for one third of the price which I make around £12 32 ish.  So how  does that explain that Rapido are offering a not massively dissimilar, but a bit larger, moulded GPV  for £32.95.  According to my maths that is not only nowhere near one third of the price of the Rails Mink but is in fact only £4 less.  is there something wrong with my maths or have I missed something in your earlier post?  

 

Don't forget there is far more to the retail price than simply saying how much it costs to develop, tool, and produce, a model but if you're sure you can profitably sell a mass produced Iron Mink at 13 quid a copy I should get in quick before someone beats you to it

Edited August 1, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[cctransuk]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

If you're so convinced that there is a good market there then get in quick and  write up your business plan, pop along to your bank manager and show to him how profitable it would be for both you and the bank so he'll lend you something around £100,000.

.............

Hmm, not quite so easy when you have to put your own money where your ideas might happen to be . 

 

PS You previously suggested that a moulded version could be sold for one third of the price which I make around £12 32 ish.  So how  does that explain that Rapido are offering a not massively dissimilar, but a bit larger, moulded GPV  for £32.95.  According to my maths that is not only nowhere near one third of the price of the Rails Mink but is in fact only £4 less.  is there something wrong with my maths or have I missed something in your earlier post?

 

At my age, I don't have the slightest interest in making money, or in wasting my valuable modelling time on commissioning models.

 

As to the price, I merely observed the example (above) of the forthcoming Oxford GER van - which I do have on order - and the price that Oxford seem to be able to make money at. I cannot believe that an injection moulded iron mink would be any more expensive to produce than a (somewhat larger) GER van.

 

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why, were Oxford to commission an iron mink, they would need to charge considerably more than they are doing for the GER van?

 

I haven't the slightest idea why Rapido are offering a not massively dissimilar, but a bit larger, moulded GPV  for £32.95; you'd have to ask them. I merely refer you back to the example of the Oxford GER van.

 

CJI.

[Phil Parker]

19 hours ago, cctransuk said:

Sorry - I still reckon it's all about a quick buck

 

If you think a run of 900 model railway wagons is going to make anyone a fortune, look at the maths. Even if the vans were all profit, you could buy a whopping two Ford Fiestas from the proceeds. When I dream of a lottery win, it's a bigger dream than that...

 

[cctransuk]

31 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

If you think a run of 900 model railway wagons is going to make anyone a fortune, look at the maths. Even if the vans were all profit, you could buy a whopping two Ford Fiestas from the proceeds. When I dream of a lottery win, it's a bigger dream than that...

 

 

Phil,

 

I did say 'a quick buck', not a 'fortune' or a 'lottery win' - my concern is that this limited production will probably 'queer the pitch' for a mass market offering for the forseeable future.

 

CJI.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Phil,

 

I did say 'a quick buck', not a 'fortune' or a 'lottery win' - my concern is that this limited production will probably 'queer the pitch' for a mass market offering for the forseeable future.

 

CJI.

 

I see very little sign of eagerness on the part of Bachmann or Hornby to produce 19th-century wagons. I don't think there's a pitch to be queered.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Compound2632

[Nile]

My thought too. If this van was such a dead cert. for RTR, why hasn't it happened yet? (in OO).

[Craigw]

Is it possible to remove the offside brakegear and lever to take the model back to early to mid 1920s condition?

 

If it can be readily removed I will stump up for one, but if not I shall have to pass.

 

Hopefully the interest in this will be such that something else will follow.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[hmrspaul]

7 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

 

 

I haven't the slightest idea why Rapido are offering a not massively dissimilar, but a bit larger, moulded GPV  for £32.95; you'd have to ask them. I merely refer you back to the example of the Oxford GER van.

 

CJI.

Perhaps an acknowledgement that the V6 Gunpowder was as rare as hens teeth (I'm away from my books so not able to quote total - but it is very few) add in the similar LMS/LNER and BR built ones you have some more, but less than 200 altogether - rather different to 5K Iron MInk prototypes which for the first 40 years of last century could be seen everywhere. 

 

Paul

[TheSignalEngineer]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I see very little sign of eagerness on the part of Bachmann or Hornby to produce 19th-century wagons.

For that matter there are plenty of gaps in pre-WW2 wagons, coaches as well. We get mis-shapen LMS 12T box vans in blue boxes, generic 5-planks and tank wagons based on 1970s tooling, PO wagons in garish liveries. Except for the Coronation Scot set no LMS vestibule coaching stock since one example from Replica Railways about 30 years ago, a GWR restaurant car about 50 years old, ..........( add favoutire wagon or coach).....

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

PO wagons in garish liveries. 

 

Those liveries are generally authentic but frequently misapplied - how many of Bachmann's rather nice RCH 1923 standard 12 ton wagons does one see labelled 10 Tons? A range of RCH 1907 standard 10 ton wagons would be a start! After all, they were more numerous than the 1923 wagons, even at nationalisation, I believe, though they were first for the chop when mass withdrawals of wooden wagons began.

 

Dismounts from hobby-horse...

Edited August 2, 2021 by Compound2632

[Wickham Green too]

Unfortunately, the 1907 'standard' wagons were far less standardised than the 1923 ones.

[No Decorum]

9 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Unfortunately, the 1907 'standard' wagons were far less standardised than the 1923 ones.

Yes but we’d be much closer to reality. Judging by the number of different liveries applied to wagons currently on the market, a tooling of 1907 wagons would just go on and on reaping profits.

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

At my age, I don't have the slightest interest in making money, or in wasting my valuable modelling time on commissioning models.

 

As to the price, I merely observed the example (above) of the forthcoming Oxford GER van - which I do have on order - and the price that Oxford seem to be able to make money at. I cannot believe that an injection moulded iron mink would be any more expensive to produce than a (somewhat larger) GER van.

 

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why, were Oxford to commission an iron mink, they would need to charge considerably more than they are doing for the GER van?

 

I haven't the slightest idea why Rapido are offering a not massively dissimilar, but a bit larger, moulded GPV  for £32.95; you'd have to ask them. I merely refer you back to the example of the Oxford GER van.

 

CJI.

As I explained in an earlier post the retail price does not simply represent the cost of manufacture but all sorts of things from overheads (Oxford's are clearly very low), how development costs are recovered though an element in the retail price,  and over how many models, sold at what rate, development costs are set to be (hopefully) recovered.  Oxford's model for its business plan for a wagon is clearly very different from the way most others approach things and some of its costs are also substantially lower for various reasons.

 

It also depends on the extent to which any business is prepared to cross subsidise one part of its range from another part (even if it is a very small range) and the extent to which it is prepared to invest money (i.e. a lower level of gross profit per item in order to build its market share.  Low overheads, possibly quicker/less in depth R&D, using the keenest priced contractors for such things as scanning or CAD work, and a willingness to play a long game on building market share ata cost in gross profit and you will havea lower retailpriv ce.

 

Use radical new production techniques, spend a mass of time (and money) on R&D, not be willing or able take a massive financial risk on a short production run but aim to recover your costs as each model sells, and you will have a higher retail price - all simple economics of manufacture, marketing, and staying in business.   Hence Rapido's GPV costs more than twice the price of Oxford's GER van and nearly as much as the rails' Mink.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Regarding demand for various prototypes, my current modelling era is late 1950s. My decision process depends on whether they were in revenue traffic in my area at that time and how wany can I justify.

The answers in this instance are no and one for departmental use.

I already have a kit built and scruffy one which stands in the Mileage Yard for the C&W to keep their kit in, so unless I decide to backdate by 15-20 years I will pass on this one.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 Oxford's model for its business plan for a wagon is clearly very different from the way most others approach things and some of its costs are also substantially lower for various reasons.

Doesn't LCD have its own factory in China? I think it has a capacity for about 3 million items per annum.

IIRC it employs its own toolmakers and machinery therefore is not so dependant on the difficulties of getting and losing production slots.

[The Stationmaster]

On 02/08/2021 at 13:16, TheSignalEngineer said:

Doesn't LCD have its own factory in China? I think it has a capacity for about 3 million items per annum.

IIRC it employs its own toolmakers and machinery therefore is not so dependant on the difficulties of getting and losing production slots.

Oxford Diecast (HK) has a factory manufacturing diecast vehicle models in Hong Kong.  Oxford Rail manufacturing is carried out on mainland China. and according to the people who at that time owned the mainland factory the building with the Oxford Rail sign exhibited outside in a photo was not owned by Oxford Rail - things might have changed and Oxford might have invested in that, or another, factory since theni

[Edwardian]

A package arrived today, and, I must confess, I'm very happy indeed with the way these have turned out. 

 

   

 

EDIT: Some further pictures:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Edwardian
spelling

[cctransuk]

On 31/07/2021 at 22:07, cctransuk said:

 

Deleted.

Edited August 9, 2021 by cctransuk

[57xx]

Thanks for your pics, it's confirmed my thoughts on this.