3d printing Looking for some 3D Printing and Laser Cutting advice

[nhdesigns]

I'm not sure if I'm going about this the right way or not. I have a number of ideas in mind for making my own model scenery items like lineside junk, interior items for buildings and other things like buildings, signal gantries etc.

 

I've heard of some places like shapeways.com and others, but I'm 50/50 on that at the moment. I'm interested in 3D model making but don't know much about it. I know I would need to have a 3D printer for start and 3D printing or design software but that's it. I imagine the same for a laser cutter and some CAD design software to draw out shapes with.

 

So basically does anyone have any advice on 3D printing and laser cutting? Just some basic information and advice for 3D printing like:

 

1. What is the best 3D printer for making small items? Such as scenic details, building interiors etc.
2. Is it better to get one new or second hand to try?
3. Would I need any special software or app?
4. Is it easy to use 3D printers and any programs?
5. Do I need any special materials?

 

As far as laser cutting and printing is concerned:

 

1. What's the best or cheapest laser cutter to get?
2. Is it better to get one new or second hand to try?
3. Would I need any special software or app? I imagine a CAD design program would be needed.

 

 I model 1:76 OO gauge and with an urban themed layout set in the 1980s to the present day if this helps as well.

 

 

[r12477]

Your best option before you invest money in a 3D printer or laser cutter would be to try some designs and have these manufactured by others first. You can run your own 3D prints through Shapeways without necessarily putting them up for sale (although this might prove expensive given the Shapeways handling and shipping charges) or a local 3D print service (definitely likely to be cheaper, although the quality may vary). Similarly, this can be done with laser cut designs and local manufacturers who are likely to be able to produce larger sheets/designs (up to 2400 mm or 1200 mm x 600 mm) than on anything which you could reasonably produce at home (without significant expense).

 

For 3D design software, there is a range of options, but that with probably the most shallow learning curve would be TinkerCAD (as its' focus is primarily educational) and for laser cutting, any SVG or vector design package would suffice (I have used Inkscape)

[Quarryscapes]

1.) Phrozen Sonic Mini 4k - best resolution desktop printer for small detail items

 

2.) Pretty rare to find second hand printers to be honest.

 

3.) You're going to need slicing software to turn 3D models into printable files and obviously 3D CAD software to make the 3D models. A slicer will be supplied with printer, but you can use

others, for 3D CAD you need to shop around for a package that works the way you want and is good for the kind of design you want to do. Fusion360 is a jack of all trades which will allow you some professional capabilities and is pretty easy to use though not necessarily obvious where the commands are or what they do for a newbie, Plenty of youtube help etc. Sketchup is great if you never want to go beyond 3D printing and has a straightforward UI: You literally just draw in 3D space and any flat surface you make gets filled with a surface. Keep going and link them all together and you get a watertight 3D shape, hopefully. SKetchup normally requires a little help to make printable files, but the info is all out there. Plugins can make it a lot more useful too. 

 

4.) Using the printer is the easy bit, but there's still a learning curve with that. 3D design is a discipline with many branches that will take time to master. 

 

As for laser I can't help with hardware, but you need either 2D CAD package or a Vector graphics package. Both have different approaches to learn. CAD is more rigidly defined by dimensions and mathematical functions, Vector graphics is free flowing and without constraints. I've always found the CAD approach preferable personally, even when producing web graphics I often do it in CAD!

 

[nhdesigns]

4 hours ago, Quarryscapes said:

1.) Phrozen Sonic Mini 4k - best resolution desktop printer for small detail items

 

2.) Pretty rare to find second hand printers to be honest.

 

3.) You're going to need slicing software to turn 3D models into printable files and obviously 3D CAD software to make the 3D models. A slicer will be supplied with printer, but you can use

others, for 3D CAD you need to shop around for a package that works the way you want and is good for the kind of design you want to do. Fusion360 is a jack of all trades which will allow you some professional capabilities and is pretty easy to use though not necessarily obvious where the commands are or what they do for a newbie, Plenty of youtube help etc. Sketchup is great if you never want to go beyond 3D printing and has a straightforward UI: You literally just draw in 3D space and any flat surface you make gets filled with a surface. Keep going and link them all together and you get a watertight 3D shape, hopefully. SKetchup normally requires a little help to make printable files, but the info is all out there. Plugins can make it a lot more useful too. 

 

4.) Using the printer is the easy bit, but there's still a learning curve with that. 3D design is a discipline with many branches that will take time to master. 

 

As for laser I can't help with hardware, but you need either 2D CAD package or a Vector graphics package. Both have different approaches to learn. CAD is more rigidly defined by dimensions and mathematical functions, Vector graphics is free flowing and without constraints. I've always found the CAD approach preferable personally, even when producing web graphics I often do it in CAD!

 

Well that’s really good advice there thanks. I don’t think I would have much trouble with either 3D design work or vector graphics and CAD.
 

I actually had a look around and did see one for £100 on Amazon but I’m not going to rush into buying one or a laser cutter either.

 

If anything it’s one of the ideas I have in mind, that might be gone again tomorrow or over the next week knowing my mind.

 

Mainly because I got a degree in illustration, with line and technical illustration being my major in my final year.

 

And I did learn 3D art and design in my first year and did it as my major in my second year.

 

Though I probably would be a bit rusty since I’ve not done 3D design work for nearly 10 years but I still know my way around it. 
 

I shouldn’t have a problem with CAD or vector design and laser printing. Mainly because I did work for my local glass centre and learned about vector design and printing, since the branch I worked at was the only one that did sandblasting for glass. 
 

I did do a lot of the design work and printing onto vinyl prior to sandblasting. 
 

“Ah memories!” Those were the days. 

 

All in all I appreciate your advice on this.
 

 

 

[jonhall]

I'd suggest looking into local makerspaces that might have examples of the sort of hardware you might want access to, I thought your location might make finding one a bit difficult, however a google of makerspaces Cornwall brought up more options than I was expecting.

 

One you see the output of some of these things, the choice will become a bit easier.

 

Jon

[KeithHC]

I am still in the learning stage and software has been a problem for me. I have used Open space but as I suffer from unreliable Wi-Fi I needed a stand alone product so have recently downloaded Design Spark backed buy RS. As with most 3D packages there are lots of YouTube videos to watch. It is now my autumn project to learn the software. Also when buying a 3D printer you need to decide what you are going to print.Basically there are two types one filament using PLA or ABS and the other type that uses resin. I currently have a filament machine but May in the future get a resin printer I am lucky in having a large garage so can run a resin printer without worrying about fumes.

 

Keith

[monkeysarefun]

Just do it mate! Resin printers are cheap as chips these days, especially when compared to what Shapeways charge for a print.

 

Small detailed items are what they are brilliant at, I never cease to  get such a feeling of wonder seeing some little detailed part  suspended from the build plate when checking on a finished print.

 

Unless something went wrong and theres only part of it there.

 

Or nothing there at all, that bit is annoying but other than that I love the idea that I made that thing out of just a  bottle of goo and some light, its like science fiction or something.

 

Apart from CAD there's other sources of models, many online sites offer freebie files or purchaseable ones.

 

Personally Ive been getting into photogrammetry  using a free programme called 3dflow.

 

That IS science fiction, take some photos of something, stick them into a computer then plot out a perfect little model of it. Started doing some gravestones because I needed a few, got the bug when they came out so well and now its become a bit of a hobby in its own right...

 

https://sketchfab.com/search?q=rookwoodgothica&sort_by=-relevance&type=models

Edited July 28, 2021 by monkeysarefun

[njee20]

All this pertains to 3D printers, don't know about laser cutters:

 

Just backing up a bit, and not wishing to teach you to suck eggs, but it's relevant when people are throwing model suggestions around.

There are two main types of 3D printer for the hobby market: FDM ('filament') and MSLA ('resin'). The former extrude a trail of melted filament and 'trace' the shape of the model, whilst MSLA use a UV screen to cure layers of UV-sensitive resin one by one. FDM printers are cheaper, have larger print beds, the prints are tougher and more stable and there's no post-processing required. The machines, however, need lots of fettling, there's a whole culture of hardware upgrades, hacking your machine, adding bits on and what not. Resin, by contrast, have smaller build volumes, the prints are generally more delicate, but far higher detail. There's virtually no fiddling with the hardware, but lots of settings to tweak - UV exposures, lift speeds etc. The prints will need cleaning and curing after printing, and the resin is toxic. The whole thing is messier, smellier and generally less pleasant, but the results immeasurably superior.

For small detail items then resin is an absolute slam dunk IMO. Whilst the Phrozen Sonic Mini 4K is techincally the highest resolution you're talking about a voxel size of 35 microns versus the 'standard' of 50 microns on printers at half the price; and this is broadly indistinguishable to the naked eye. Phrozen printers have a reputation for poor reliability and aftersales, and wouldn't be my first choice (although I do have one of their printers on order!).

 

I'd look at Elegoo, and the Mars 2, which is more like £200, they fluctuate, and have been down at £180. For me I'd have two of those ahead of a Sonic Mini all day long. The Voxelab Proxima gets great reviews and is closer to £150. They're all basically the same 'under the hood', with boards made by Chinese company 'Chitu Systems'.

 

In terms of software - yes you'll need some modelling software. Fusion 360 is probably the most popular choice of CAD software, but there are plenty. They all have similar, steep, learning curves, but there are growing numbers of tutorials out there! You'll also need some slicing software, which will depend on your printer, nothing awkward there.

 

I'd definitely buy a new printer. There are plenty of second hand ones out there - there are FB groups for them, but I'd want to know the pedigree of my first printer, you don't want to find they've screwed it up, it's a steep enough learning curve without the uncertainty of whether the printer is actually working or not!

 

So, TL:DR is:

1. IMO Elegoo Mars 2

2. New, 100%

3. Yes, but there are plenty of free options, so it's not hugely relevant

4. Depends what you compare it to! Design is definitely the hardest bit, but the printers themselves can be frustrating!

5. With a resin printer you can get (and I'd recommend) a separate washing/curing station, but you'll certainly need some solvent (I'd recommend IPA or acetone) and a UV lamp (or the sun), nitrile gloves, paint filters (for putting resin back in the bottle). Also be aware that the LCD screens in the printers are consumable (another reason I'd not get a Sonic Mini as my first printer - the higher resolution screen is more expensive to replace), as is the membrane at the bottom of the resin vat, the FEP, so worth having at least one of each on hand; you'll need them eventually.

Sorry... even the TL:DR version is pretty wordy! Loads of people on here with printers, I'd be happy to run off a couple of prints if you got as far as designing; can do FDM and resin to compare.

1)

[AndyH]

Hello up on the North Coast.

Working in 4mm you have a lot of choices.

1&2. Agree I’d go resin over FDM (filament printers/fused deposition modelling) due to detail and flexibility.  Again, Egloo Mars 2 is probably your best cheapest option, but the notion of a ‘best’ is changing rapidly so forget about second hand unless you are on a very tight budget. This is really due to the fact you don’t know how they have been used and abused, and they are relatively fragile precision items.

Also agree about the washing and curing stations being essential. You’ll need a safe way to handle that spent IPA, and I don’t mean the beer!

3. For me Fusion360 all the way. Though appreciate there are many other evangelists for open source alternatives (blender etc) 

4. Yes, relatively easy to use. Like anything harder to perfect. Trial and error, and failure being your best learning partner. The various pre-print slicer apps (Cura, PreForm, etc.) all do similar things, with some specific to certain machines, though all with similar tools to help you to optimise print time vs detail.

5. Special Materials. Yes, depending upon the printer and your intended use, but also how you intend to finish the print and the cost you want per print.

 

Other considerations are ventilation/ extraction following HSE guidance for FDM machines https://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrhtm/rr1146.htm which can involve hoods for machines. Not to put a dampener on it, but the COSHH side of both processes needs consideration, especially at home.

 

Laser cutting. 
1. Don’t buy unless you want it to be a business. Fantastic examples on here that show how that can happen (Intentio). Agree about maker spaces. Have a look at the space run by the truly brilliant Aaron Moore 

https://www.cnccraft.co.uk/makerspace/ down near Mount Hawke.
2. Again, same caveat with second hand machines, especially with laser tube life (replacement costs are high).

3. As others have said any vector based CAD programme, from illustrator, CorelDraw, AutoCAD to Inkscape. Even take sections and drawings from Fusion360. Whatever you feel comfortable with. Good file prep and layer handling/thinking a must!

 

It’s all a great journey, with many opinions and different ways to achieve the same outcome. The most important point it should be enjoyable.

 

Edit: ps I use both, alongside many other processes at work, so my view is from a slightly different perspective.

Edited July 28, 2021 by AndyH
Context given

[DGO]

Since several others have mentioned 3D Resin printers and how good they are I'll go with lasers

 

There are effectively 3 types of cutting lasers LED, CO2 and Fibre, unless you have a serious amount of cash to splash you can probably remove fibre, shame as these will slice and dice metal and to a very high standard, next most expensive and most common are CO2 lasers, these start off small and relatively cheap circa £400 for a K40 laser but K40's are in my opinion not much use, they use proprietary software and are small (about an A4 sheet is all they have as a cutting area, for something not much larger you see a huge price jump to circa £2500, but in their defence CO2 lasers will cut a variety of materials (not metal) such as perspex, wood, leather paper. At the cheap end of the market are Diode Lasers, these have come on in leaps and bounds in the last couple of years, Ortur makes the Laser Master which gets good reviews but there are several others, you can cut a reasonable size piece with these but they tend to only do really well on thin sheets, also they can't cut clear materials, with a more powerful head (nominally 30 or 40 W lasers that actually deliver 5-10W of laser at the sheet) they can cut through thin plywood and MDF and may be able to cut through 3-6mm of this with multiple passes, but to get the best you need to add a compressed air feed to keep the cutting area free of soot and ideally unless you enjoy your room smelling of burnt materials you want to fit some sort of fume hood.

 

Personally I think Cheap lasers are best used for making scale buildings but I can't quite bring myself to buy one yet, if they can up the power a bit more I might be tempted by something A3 sized or a bit bigger. In the mean time I am lucky to have 2 local firms one who can cut metal the other who can cut most other materials that I can email files to for cutting

[monkeysarefun]

Ive got an Emblaser and an Emblaser 2,  low powered diode lasers.  I've done good stuff with them, ideal for brickwork and buildings mainly. Great on card, thin ply, and laser specific materials.

 

I use Inkscape for designing things, and lightburn for the laser software.

 

Haven't used it for ages since 3D printing  is still a  novelty for me but I should get back into it.

 

[JimFin]

To add to your knowledge on the printing aspect - for details as you describe, a resin printer would be best as others have said.

 

Some points to follow through on that - resin and the the fumes from it are toxic and have to be handled with some degree of care, it really needs to be kept separate from your domestic accommodation. It is also fairly sensitive to temperature changes so having adequate insulation and ventilation are essential.

 

You need to take time to learn the process to tune your printer to perform well with the resin of your choice, every printer/resin combination requires a unique set up, even different colours of the same brand of resin can behave differently. There is a bit of a dark art combined with science in it to establish the optimum exposure time.

 

After creating your model, as well as mastering the CAD you will need to master the slicing software as the process of adding supports to the model during the printing process can be as complex as the initial CAD. Never yet found an automated support generation tool that is completely reliable so manually setting up has been my solution.

 

Once printed, you need to wash and cure the model and a number of wash and cure machines are available to compliment your printer. You also need a supply of washing fluid - I use 99% alcohol - and that too needs to be handled with care. You need a process to then recover the reusable alcohol from the resin/alcohol mix.

 

Care needs to be taken with the disposal of the associated detritus that will have uncured resin on it, disposable gloves, paper towels, scrap build supports, used filters, empty resin bottles, and spoil from the washing process - it is all toxic to a degree.

 

Don't get me wrong - it's all doable and the results can be fantastic - but you need to go into this with your eyes wide open.

 

 

[DGO]

With regard to toxicity of the rubbish, it's only really nasty whilst uncured, I but all my rubbish in a cheap plastic bin then put it out in the sun for a couple of hours, after that it can go in the normal household waste bag.