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Was there a “standard” DB 2-10-0?


TravisM
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On 28/08/2021 at 14:33, John Tomlinson said:

The spread of the 8000 or so Br52 "Kriegslok" after the war was considerable, extending throughout Eastern Europe, the then Soviet Union, Turkey, and I believe Vietnam and possibly Cuba.

 

This link shows one of the Romanian ones, taken when part of their museum fleet, at Sibiu in 1996. I think most Romanian steam was oil-burning, as is the case here.

 

 

 

 

John.

The history of the class in Rumania is rather complicated. As is the history of the country itself during the war years. Better not go there. :o 

Many were later actually dual fired with an oil reservoir behind the coal bunker.

Many also had the type of tender that is usually found on the German class 50 rather than the tub type.

As for the deflectors it is almost a case of anything goes as I have come across all manner of bodges in various places at various times.

Bernard

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54 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

The history of the class in Rumania is rather complicated. As is the history of the country itself during the war years. Better not go there. :o 

Many were later actually dual fired with an oil reservoir behind the coal bunker.

Many also had the type of tender that is usually found on the German class 50 rather than the tub type.

As for the deflectors it is almost a case of anything goes as I have come across all manner of bodges in various places at various times.

Bernard

 

Thank you Bernard, that's very informative. I think the same could be said of the history in Croatia, Hungary and Slovakia at that time, to name but three.

 

I was thinking about the smoke deflectors, and seem to recall that in the USSR at least they were often removed. As the locos didn't go very fast at all one wonders if they gave any real benefit anywhere. I can't think of any British 2-8-0's that carried them, although of course our 9F's did, but then they worked express freights and the occassional passenger service.

 

This is a view of a plinthed example taken at Radviliskis in Lithuania, formerly part of the USSR, in May 2012, without deflectors and with the Soviet style small smokebox door.

 

 

IMG_4442 copyRMweb.jpg

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I saw in a Railway Magazine of (I suppose) 1942 an article about the newly intoduced Class 52 with all the technical particulars, no different in format or content from an article about a new class introduced by one of the big four. It made me wonder how they came by that data so readily from a country with which we were at war.

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3 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

Thank you Bernard, that's very informative. I think the same could be said of the history in Croatia, Hungary and Slovakia at that time, to name but three.

 

I was thinking about the smoke deflectors, and seem to recall that in the USSR at least they were often removed. 

 

 

 

Thanks John.

Re the smoke deflectors.

Rather than being removed I would say they were added later and were not part of the original design.

They do not appear on the original drawing and were not on the prototype in October 1942. 

Although just how early they were introduced and in what areas I would need to look up. Photo evidence shows a machine built in June 1943 with them and another from July 1943 ex works without.

The main difference with Rumania is that as it had joined in the war on the German side in 1941 I think and it received new class 52 machines direct from the builders in 1943. Several other countries only took them in to stock at the end of the war. If I can manage in the morning I will try to dig out a list of the Rumanian 52s.

Bernard

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2 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

I saw in a Railway Magazine of (I suppose) 1942 an article about the newly intoduced Class 52 with all the technical particulars, no different in format or content from an article about a new class introduced by one of the big four. It made me wonder how they came by that data so readily from a country with which we were at war.

An article appeared in Die Lokomotive in October 1942.

Seeing that Model Railway News found it's way to a person very high up in the Germany hierarchy I see no reason that the German magazine was not available in the UK in certain quarters.:D

Bernard

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2 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Thanks John.

Re the smoke deflectors.

Rather than being removed I would say they were added later and were not part of the original design.

They do not appear on the original drawing and were not on the prototype in October 1942. 

Although just how early they were introduced and in what areas I would need to look up. Photo evidence shows a machine built in June 1943 with them and another from July 1943 ex works without.

The main difference with Rumania is that as it had joined in the war on the German side in 1941 I think and it received new class 52 machines direct from the builders in 1943. Several other countries only took them in to stock at the end of the war. If I can manage in the morning I will try to dig out a list of the Rumanian 52s.

Bernard

 

Hi Bernard,

 

When I researched the Romanian picture I put up earlier, I discovered that they received 100 new in 1943/44, taken into their French style numbering scheme as 150.1001 -150.1100. There was a 150.0 series in Romania that is like a German Br50, I think these were built under licence at Resita circa 1939/40.

 

When Romania operated a museum fleet for charters in the '90's (I don't think it still does), the Kriegslok I showed earlier wasn't one of those built new for the country, but rather one 52.196 that went to Poland, then Hungary and the Balkans, then as reparations to the USSR. I think the Romanians must have bought some more from the Soviets in the late '40' or into the '50's and this was one of them.

 

John.

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On 30/08/2021 at 15:22, John Tomlinson said:

This is a view of a plinthed example taken at Radviliskis in Lithuania, formerly part of the USSR, in May 2012, without deflectors and with the Soviet style small smokebox door.

It looks in nice cosmetic condition.

 

Wonder why the valve gear was removed ?

 

AFAIK smoke deflectors were not fitted ex:works on the 52's, but I stand to be politely corrected.

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46 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

It looks in nice cosmetic condition.

 

Wonder why the valve gear was removed ?

 

AFAIK smoke deflectors were not fitted ex:works on the 52's, but I stand to be politely corrected.

I did mention that some machines were equipped with smoke deflectors from new.

Checking it seems that the first machine so fitted was 52 2328 from Henshel. I have a photo dated 4-6-43 which ties in quite well with my previous comment re dates. 52 1325 is another example where I have a captioned photo.

I would need to check, but my gut feeling is that this had something to do with service conditions on the Ost Bahn. Various locally made deflectors appear in early photos on that line and I have not come across anything earlier on other routes.

Bernard

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Some of the RESITA 50s ended up in China, for use as Industrial locos, class DK5.  Here is DK% 250 at the 'museum' at Sujiatun depot.  I think its probably safely in the swish new museum in Shenyang now, the one that has the 751, 757 and 811 streamlined SL pacifics.

 

5135649978_bb9e254f96_b.jpg.f25c202862ed86b69eece8cce2cb7613.jpg

 

I photted this one myself back in 1992, but can't find the photos at the moment.  Compared to the indigenous or US designs, these looked small!

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On 30/08/2021 at 19:34, Bernard Lamb said:

I think and it received new class 52 machines direct from the builders in 1943. Several other countries only took them in to stock at the end of the war. If I can manage in the morning I will try to dig out a list of the Rumanian 52s.

Bernard

 

150.1001-1020 Wiener LF 

150.1021-1030 Schwartzkopff 

150.1031-1043 MBA Berlin

150.1044-1060 Skoda

150 1061-1100 Henschel

 

 

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8 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

Some of the RESITA 50s ended up in China, for use as Industrial locos, class DK5.  Here is DK% 250 at the 'museum' at Sujiatun depot.  I think its probably safely in the swish new museum in Shenyang now, the one that has the 751, 757 and 811 streamlined SL pacifics.

 

5135649978_bb9e254f96_b.jpg.f25c202862ed86b69eece8cce2cb7613.jpg

 

I photted this one myself back in 1992, but can't find the photos at the moment.  Compared to the indigenous or US designs, these looked small!

 

The lok was in a similar position at New Year 1986 when I was in Shenyang with TEFS. I know where my slide is but have too many things going on at the moment to post it.

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1 hour ago, drmditch said:

Please excuse what may be an ignorant question.

Presumably the locomotives used by the USSR would have had to be re-gauged.

For which other countries would this have been needed?

 

 

Yes, they were regauged - there is detail about this work in the definitive work on Kreigsloks (ISBN 91-7266-140-2)

No class 52  Kriegsloks were sent to any other countries with non-1435mm gauge;

the full list of countries receiving Kriegsloks was:

 

Germany

France

Belgium

Norway

Luxembourg

Italy

Austria

Hungary

Czechoslovakia

Poland

Romania

Yugoslavia

Bulgaria

Turkey

USSR

Vietnam

 

 

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1 hour ago, drmditch said:

Please excuse what may be an ignorant question.

Presumably the locomotives used by the USSR would have had to be re-gauged.

For which other countries would this have been needed?

 

A very sensible question.

You presume correctly.

However things get a little bit more complicated as the USSR, in the Cold War period, had a strategic reserve ready to invade Western Europe and this fleet was made up of locomotives of both gauges. Many of these machines lasted in stock until the break up of the USSR. I have no details as to which were which gauge and if any or all had previously been re-gauged more than once.

It gets even more complicated as in some locations during the war the track itself was re-gauged. More than once in a few places.

Bernard

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3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I last saw Kriegsloks in Graz in November 1967. 52-8000 was among them - you tend to remember a number like that! I imagine that was a reko. 

 

No, Reko loks were the DDR rebuilds after computer numbering (52.8001 - 8200, rebuilt from 'ordinary' 52).

 

Original 52s did not reach 8000. 52 8000 was a one off, passed from Yugoslavian Railways  (number 33.010) to OeBB Austria in 1963

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22 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

 

Yes, they were regauged - there is detail about this work in the definitive work on Kreigsloks (ISBN 91-7266-140-2)

No class 52  Kriegsloks were sent to any other countries with non-1435mm gauge;

the full list of countries receiving Kriegsloks was:

 

Germany

France

Belgium

Norway

Luxembourg

Italy

Austria

Hungary

Czechoslovakia

Poland

Romania

Yugoslavia

Bulgaria

Turkey

USSR

Vietnam

 

 

Strictly speaking that comment needs a spot of clarification.

Post war some were sent to Rumania and Czechoslovakia for re-gauging and Rumanian works were used for repairs for quite a few years. Both countries had broad gauge lines. 150.1043 was still in existence in Rumania  in the early 1990s according to the book that you quote.

Bernard

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18 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

 

No, Reko loks were the DDR rebuilds after computer numbering (52.8001 - 8200, rebuilt from 'ordinary' 52).

 

Original 52s did not reach 8000. 52 8000 was a one off, passed from Yugoslavian Railways  (number 33.010) to OeBB Austria in 1963

Wonderful detail, thankyou!

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22 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

 

Yes, they were regauged - there is detail about this work in the definitive work on Kreigsloks (ISBN 91-7266-140-2)

No class 52  Kriegsloks were sent to any other countries with non-1435mm gauge;

the full list of countries receiving Kriegsloks was:

 

Germany

France

Belgium

Norway

Luxembourg

Italy

Austria

Hungary

Czechoslovakia

Poland

Romania

Yugoslavia

Bulgaria

Turkey

USSR

Vietnam

 

Presumably there were various circumstances in which each of these countries acquired their Class 52s. Some of the possibilities I can think of (I'm not confident all of these actually happened) are:

Supplied during war to occupied countries

Supplied during war to other Axis countries

Supplied during war to neutral countries (Turkey)

Claimed as reparations atfer the war by previously occupied countries

Purchased after the war from countries that had surplus locomotives.

Donated as a cheap gesture of fraternal solidarity to a country that had no use for them (DDR to Vietnam)

 

I'm no expert of French railways but I don't recall ever seeing a picture of Reichsbahn types operating on the SNCF. Did the French get rid of theirs early on?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

I'm no expert of French railways but I don't recall ever seeing a picture of Reichsbahn types operating on the SNCF. Did the French get rid of theirs early on?

Gordon Wis will give chapter and verse, but a number of former DR locos and vehicles were in use in France post-war. I think the 150-class locos were ex-DR.

 

[Sadly the metre-gauge steam tramway that once ran a couple of hundred yards behind my house out here in the sticks succumbed in 1947, the key bridge across the River Sarthe in Le Mans having been blown up as the Allies entered the city in August 1944. It's what retreating armies do.]  

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1 hour ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

 

 

I'm no expert of French railways but I don't recall ever seeing a picture of Reichsbahn types operating on the SNCF. Did the French get rid of theirs early on?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quite the contrary

 

The most notable and numerous Reichsbahn designs to run on SNCF were the Class 44 (150X) and Kriegslok (150Y). 150Y survived until the late 1950s, 150X survived until the early 1960s (a batch sold to Turkey ran until the 1970s (some of which were still dumped at Sivas works when I visited in the mid 1980s, allowing me to say that I have climbed on board an SNCF 150X despite being about age 1 when the class was withdrawn)

 

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.0fa785c8ae9149212e2616e293c36f00?rik=utdioPRsrPoSDA&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.marklinfan.net%2fimages%2fsncf150x.jpg&ehk=qr5qnHcQx6CTvy%2fq1P48WieXTxgxpjJd3ChyLfM6poo%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

 

There were also dozens of pre-DRG German classes running on SNCF, some until the late 1960s. These were mainly WW1 reparations, but some were built in works that were in German territory which later became part of France

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

Presumably there were various circumstances in which each of these countries acquired their Class 52s. Some of the possibilities I can think of (I'm not confident all of these actually happened) are:

Supplied during war to occupied countries

Supplied during war to other Axis countries

Supplied during war to neutral countries (Turkey)

Claimed as reparations atfer the war by previously occupied countries

Purchased after the war from countries that had surplus locomotives.

Donated as a cheap gesture of fraternal solidarity to a country that had no use for them (DDR to Vietnam)

 

I'm no expert of French railways but I don't recall ever seeing a picture of Reichsbahn types operating on the SNCF. Did the French get rid of theirs early on?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The other category is 'built in factories which were part of Germany but subsequently became part of another country'.

 

Notably Graffenstaden (Strasbourg)

 

And there is 'built after the war as a continuation of the production run'

 

Notably several Belgian factories (locos ran on SNCB) and Graffenstaden (again) 

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