A colliery Austerity (the 2-8-0 kind)

[Train Thing]

I have always liked the idea of a large tender engine, say a WD 2-8-0, being sold in to industry after use on BR to some large colliery system. Did this ever happen? It seems unlikely any small industrial railway would need something that extreme but I’m not the industrial expert. Here is mining company’s 4-8-2 that shows this practice in Australia.

 

[009 micro modeller]

8 minutes ago, Train Thing said:

I have always liked the idea of a large tender engine, say a WD 2-8-0, being sold in to industry after use on BR to some large colliery system. Did this ever happen? It seems unlikely any small industrial railway would need something that extreme but I’m not the industrial expert. Here is mining company’s 4-8-2 that shows this practice in Australia.

 

 

Isn't that photo in South Africa?

 

There were some NCB-owned Garratts (William Francis at Bressingham is one), which does imply the existence of heavy enough traffic at some sites but I'm not sure.

[Sandhole]

Proper tender engines seem to be the perrogative of the big north east colliery systems. 0-6-0's all.
I assume it was a question of endurance and range. Those systems were large and involved runs on BR.
The big 0-8-0's on the Bridgewater Collieries and Gin Pit systems were there because of severe gradients, in the case of Gin Pit and one-upmanship, in the case of Katie on the Bridgewater system.
I assume the big tender engines used in S. Africa and Austrailia were there because of range and really heavy trains.
Neither of which were common in the UK.
Mind you, a subtly altered WD 2-8-0 in industrial service would be interesting to see.
Regards,
Chris.

[sir douglas]

not owned by the colliery but in the last few years of the Middleton colliery (Leeds) the 2-8-0s worked the then surviving part of the line from colliery to Beeston-Neville Hill line

[Mol_PMB]

Some of the last industrial steam in the world, in China and Bosnia, fits this theme. 

In the UK, most industrial railways were planned around short-wheelbase wagons and locos, and often featured sharp curves and poor quality track. I suspect an 8-coupled loco would have become a liability in such circumstances - frequently derailing. 

But it’s an interesting idea - perhaps it would fit an imaginary new UK opencast in the 1960s? 

[Train Thing]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Isn't that photo in South Africa?

 

There were some NCB-owned Garratts (William Francis at Bressingham is one), which does imply the existence of heavy enough traffic at some sites but I'm not sure.

It may be South African. I just guessed it was Australia. 

[melmerby]

Nice picture here of Baddesley Colliery's William Francis crossing the A5:

 

From this site: http://publictransportexperience.blogspot.com/2020/06/a-for-atherstone-for-a5-1.html

[Mol_PMB]

An ‘austerity’ S160 2-8-0 on a colliery line ... in China

 

 

[Train Thing]

3 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

An ‘austerity’ S160 2-8-0 on a colliery line ... in China

 

 

Very interesting! I presume it was sent to help with rebuilding after the Japanese invasion?

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, Train Thing said:

Very interesting! I presume it was sent to help with rebuilding after the Japanese invasion?

Sources disagree on the exact number, but between 25 and 50 of them went to China around 1947 under the auspices of the UNRRA. They included Baldwin, Lima and Alco examples.

They became class KD6, initially running on the main lines but most ended up at opencast mines. 

The S160 loco now at the Churnet Valley ran in China for most if its life. 

 

[009 micro modeller]

32 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Sources disagree on the exact number, but between 25 and 50 of them went to China around 1947 under the auspices of the UNRRA. They included Baldwin, Lima and Alco examples.

They became class KD6, initially running on the main lines but most ended up at opencast mines. 

The S160 loco now at the Churnet Valley ran in China for most if its life. 

 

 

They also have/had some of the American 0-6-0Ts in China, as used by the Southern Railway (originally S100 class).

http://www.railography.co.uk/info/cn_steam/profiles/xk2.htm

[Mol_PMB]

A great amount of detail to be found in this book, which I would recommend for those interested in imported Chinese standard gauge locos:

https://www.tynedale-publishing.com/shop/locomotives-of-china-the-foreign-locos

[pete_mcfarlane]

Some of the ROD 2-8-0s from the First World War ended up on a colliery line in Australia. 

https://www.heritagerailway.co.uk/1853/great-central-o4-down-under-cosmetically-restored/

[phil_sutters]

3 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

An ‘austerity’ S160 2-8-0 on a colliery line ... in China

 

 

The photo-sharing site I use has a Chinese railways group, with loads of industrial scenes. http://www.ipernity.com/group/309399/doc?with=38251648

[Paul H Vigor]

6 hours ago, Train Thing said:

It may be South African. I just guessed it was Australia. 

Springbok may be the giveaway!? 

[5050]

13 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Some of the ROD 2-8-0s from the First World War ended up on a colliery line in Australia. 

https://www.heritagerailway.co.uk/1853/great-central-o4-down-under-cosmetically-restored/

They also had some 2-8-2 tank versions.

 

 

There are examples still extant but not sure if they're runners.  Perhaps one of our Antipodean members could advise?

 

Were the 2-8-0's actually ROD locos or just a Robinson design sold under licence by Kitson's?  I presume the tank versions above would be the latter.

Edited August 1, 2021 by 5050

[Riddles]

14 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

The S160 loco now at the Churnet Valley ran in China for most if its life. 

 

There are actually 3 S160s based at the Churnet Valley Railway but it is true that 5197 worked in China in the coal mines around Fushun. 6046 is also there having worked in France and Hungary.  Number 3278, formerly named Franklin D Roosevelt at the Mid-Hants Railway, moved to the CVR at the beginning of this year for a full overhaul. It had previously worked in the UK, Italy and Greece.

[009 micro modeller]

11 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Springbok may be the giveaway!? 

 

For me it was also the centre buffers and narrow gauge - I always associate large coal-hauling lines in the steam era in Australia with New South Wales, which iirc is standard gauge with side buffers (like Britain)?

[pete_mcfarlane]

3 hours ago, 5050 said:

Were the 2-8-0's actually ROD locos or just a Robinson design sold under licence by Kitson's?  I presume the tank versions above would be the latter.

They were war surplus ROD locos, bought in the mid 1920s.  There some photos here, along with an ex-Mersey Railway 0-6-4T (of all things)

 

https://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/tales/case05.htm

 

 

 

[Corbs]

On 01/08/2021 at 11:28, 5050 said:

They also had some 2-8-2 tank versions.

 

 

There are examples still extant but not sure if they're runners.  Perhaps one of our Antipodean members could advise?

 

Were the 2-8-0's actually ROD locos or just a Robinson design sold under licence by Kitson's?  I presume the tank versions above would be the latter.

 

While the 2-8-0s were ex-ROD, the 2-8-2Ts predated their shedmates. Kitson had built some of the 8A 0-8-0s for the GCR and when the Australian clients approached them about a strong tank loco they used the 0-8-0 as the basis, stuck wheels on fore and aft and classic 'Leek and Manifold but bigger' Kitson side tanks. 

IIRC the 8A boiler is smaller diameter than that of the 8K (ROD type).

 

[steveNCB7754]

On 31/07/2021 at 16:44, Train Thing said:

I have always liked the idea of a large tender engine, say a WD 2-8-0, being sold in to industry after use on BR to some large colliery system. Did this ever happen? It seems unlikely any small industrial railway would need something that extreme but I’m not the industrial expert. Here is mining company’s 4-8-2 that shows this practice in Australia.

 

 

Hi.

As others have hinted, this is actually a South African locomotive.  This was one of four standard tank locomotives operated by the Springbok Colliery at Vandyksdrif near Witbank. Built by North British Locomotive Company, two locomotives (#2 and (here) #4), later had their original side tanks removed and the water carried in an auxiliary water carrier (making them tank-tender locomotives).  All the coal was still carried in the original bunker behind the cab.

 

Steve N

 

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by steveNCB7754

[009 micro modeller]

8 minutes ago, steveNCB7754 said:

two locomotives (#2 and (here) #4), later had their original side tanks removed and the water carried in an auxiliary water carrier (making them tank-tender locomotives).  All the coal was still carried in the original bunker behind the cab.

 

Was this for weight distribution or other reasons?

[steveNCB7754]

9 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Was this for weight distribution or other reasons?

The source I have doesn’t say why, but we can reasonably speculate. Needless to say, removing the tanks from the loco, reduces potential tractive effort. On the other hand, by the time this was done, these ‘veterans’ would have been used for less onerous duties anyway, having been supplanted by newer machines sourced secondhand from the ‘main line’ system. Probably just expedient to remove them once the tanks required extensive repairs or replacement, especially if you have access to surplus tenders from scrapped or surplus engines. Other advantages I suppose are; easier access for maintenance, and improved forward visibility whilst shunting (with no side tanks in the way).

 

HTH

 

Steve

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by steveNCB7754

[009 micro modeller]

56 minutes ago, steveNCB7754 said:

The source I have doesn’t say why, but we can reasonably speculate. Needless to say, removing the tanks from the loco, reduces potential tractive effort. On the other hand, by the time this was done, these ‘veterans’ would have been used for less onerous duties anyway, having been supplanted by newer machines sourced secondhand from the ‘main line’ system. Probably just expedient to remove them once the tanks required extensive repairs or replacement, especially if you have access to surplus tenders from scrapped or surplus engines. Other advantages I suppose are; easier access for maintenance, and improved forward visibility whilst shunting (with no side tanks in the way).

 

HTH

 

Steve

 

 

There was a location in Britain (I think Torrington and Marland but I don’t have the book to hand at the moment) with saddle tank locos that were found to be too heavy. So they placed the saddle tanks on flat wagons that were hauled behind the locos instead.

[Asterix2012]

On the Lauder light railway in the Scottish Borders when J67 took over they were coupled to old tenders to carry water to reduce the axle loading.