Hornby acquire remaining Oxford shares.

[Mike Harvey]

Just now, G-BOAF said:

This is true. I forgot about Corgi...

 

So why on earth did Hornby purchase Skale-Auto models from Oxford Diecast? Rather than manufacture their own through Corgi?

Several of the Corgi items in the SkaleAutos range were 1/72 rather than 1/76. Corgi's place in the 1/76 market was suffering acute competition from Oxford Diecast, and a slow down in demand in the model bus sector. Plus buying in Oxford items and Base Toys items for Skale Autos probably provided a better profit margin. 

[G-BOAF]

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

From what I've read and been told all the factories involved in the model business are Chinese owned and Chinese controlled where there is an element of non-Chinese investment.   There is as i understand no problem - but sometimes difficulty - in foreigners investing in some Chinese businesses but control ultimately always lies in Chinese hands.     The factory where the Oxford Rail sign appeared in a photo was definitely not owned by Oxford according to  what the Chinese people who owned that business said to somebody vsting from the UK who asked what had happened to the sign?.  

What about Rapido - their videos imply they own (or operate) at least two factories (the Rapido and the LRC factories) in different parts of China, including being very involved in the move of one of the factories to a new location.

Rapido has also been explictly advertising their willingness and availability for new work at their factories form other model companies (again ref their vidoes). I can't imagine they would do this if there wasn't an actual financial and operational stake in the facility.

[D9020 Nimbus]

There’s no doubt that in the last couple of years development of the Oxford Rail range — especially powered models — has slowed almost to a stop. How long is it since the J27 was announced? And the only powered model announced since is the J26 — effectively a variant of the same thing. 

[autocoach]

Eloise looses her job? Actually I am more concerned about the future of the non-UK brands Hornby Hobbies own such as Rivarossi, Jouef and Arnold. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by autocoach

[surfsup]

Even if Oxford Rail is to remain a separate brand, I hope that some models are moved into the Hornby main range - particularly the Mk3s. Bringing those across now would / should give Hornby enough time to make the refinements that they require, and hopefully allow the range to see the expansion it deserves - a top quality tooled Mk3 should be an absolute goldmine considering the number of liveries / operators / changes & uses they've had over the years! 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

What about Rapido - their videos imply they own (or operate) at least two factories (the Rapido and the LRC factories) in different parts of China, including being very involved in the move of one of the factories to a new location.

Rapido has also been explictly advertising their willingness and availability for new work at their factories form other model companies (again ref their vidoes). I can't imagine they would do this if there wasn't an actual financial and operational stake in the facility.

A stake no doubt, ownership - I wonder.  Rapido were implying a long while ago that they 'owned' a factory in China but it then ceased to do any work for them (although I have heard that it again started doing work for them last year but it also makes models for the EFE range and made models for DJM.  And Rapido of course isn't alone in accepting commissions from other people - they have done it in the past for 'Model Rail' and Bachmann (Chinese owned of course but it doesn't directly own any factories although its parent company does) also has a long history of taking on commissioned work and I know of one other British model railway brand that has taken on commission work but i don't think it goes round touting for business (and it doesn't own any factories in China).

 

But the laws in respect of foreign ownership and investment in China  did change last year to although greater foreign involvement in some areas -

 

https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/chinas-foreign-investment-law

[adb968008]

I hope more mk3’s emerge.

 

not sure what to expect from the Radial though.

 

Overall I think it makes sense, both at a company and product level.
Tbh not sure if its worth keeping an Oxford Rail brand,  but the die-cast stands up.

Oxford made some pretty nice wagons, which I could imagine would sit nice in a Hornby box.

[rembrow]

I wonder what will happen to the Oxford staff and operation based in Swansea. Hornby have a track record of closing the sites of UK businesses they have taken over and moving the operation to Kent. Lyndon Davies has huge links to the Swansea operation  first with Mettoy Corgi , Corgi management buyout and then the setting up of Oxford Diecast in part of the Mettoy site. I hope that Swansea as a separate operation will continue.

 

[Miss Prism]

I can't see Hornby keeping two design teams for railway stuff.

 

[Legend]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

I can't see Hornby keeping two design teams for railway stuff.

 

Or two sales and marketing operations , leading onto  the infamous tiers system , as others have commented . Maybe Hornby would be better learning/copying  Oxfords system . If I was Hattons I’d be worried another brand is about to disappear . 

[PJT]

8 hours ago, melmerby said:

Several of Hornby's offerings in the last 10 years or so have had diecast boilers etc. (pre the Hornby Dublo nostalgia pieces.)

Quite so, and most of them have earned a good reputation for sure-footedness with heavier loadings, for instance another of my favourites, the Hornby B12.  Waxing lyrical upthread about the Oxford N7s and now the Hornby B12s I'm beginning to sound like a fan of all things Stratford!  I'm not really, but I do love both of them for the performance their 'heavy metal' content gives them.  If the complete acquisition of Oxford by Hornby means more die cast loco bodies in future (most OR loco bodies, J27 and Janus excepted, seem to have a high metal content), well, the more the merrier, I say.  

[PJT]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I hope more mk3’s emerge.

 

not sure what to expect from the Radial though.

 

Overall I think it makes sense, both at a company and product level.
Tbh not sure if its worth keeping an Oxford Rail brand,  but the die-cast stands up.

Oxford made some pretty nice wagons, which I could imagine would sit nice in a Hornby box.

 

1. More Mk3s - Britain's favourite railway carriage - especially HST ones at last, would be very nice.

 

2. It's easy to see one suite of Radial tools becoming collateral damage in the move announced today.  But which one?  For me, the Hornby Radial looks more finely detailed and finished, but the Oxford one's heavier and, for what it's worth, has a 'proper' radial truck whereas the Hornby one doesn't.  I suppose it's not an important issue since, with all the very tempting discounted prices a year or two ago, most Adams Radial fans must own as many as they could ever possibly dream of owning by now.  How times change.  I remember when, if you wanted an Adams Radial, you had to build the K's one.  I did.  For the full personal nostalgia trip, the K's kit came as a Christmas present from my Dad, bought from Holts of Swansea's advert on the back cover of Railway Modeller. 

 

3. On balance, I think it makes sense too.  Not just from a manufacturing viewpoint where I can imagine many plus points, but also perhaps if (in an EFE Rail sort of way), Oxford Rail aside from its own items might also offer a route to get other products into smaller shops and new start-ups - the sort of retailers that might otherwise struggle to comply with all the conditions laid down by some of the bigger suppliers (not least Hornby) to get a half decent account.  

 

Pete T.

 

[Fireline]

13 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I can't see Hornby keeping two design teams for railway stuff.

 

You're assuming that Oxford Rail has a design team. My understanding was that even their design was done by the factory/office in China.

[Fireline]

19 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

This is true. I forgot about Corgi...

 

So why on earth did Hornby purchase Skale-Auto models from Oxford Diecast? Rather than manufacture their own through Corgi?

I suspect it has a lot to do with the cost of tooling. Rapido have recently explained how costly tooling is, for even the easiest models. If the deal acquires the tooling for the Oxford Models, or access to it, then Hornby have saved themselves huge tooling costs as a result.

[John M Upton]

That will be curtains for the N scale vehicle range then.  Oxford showed little interest in N scale in recent times anyway and Hornby won't want to know.

 

Depressing.  I moved over to N scale to get away from Hornby as I was sick to the back teeth of their attitudes.

[Mike Harvey]

11 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

That will be curtains for the N scale vehicle range then.  Oxford showed little interest in N scale in recent times anyway and Hornby won't want to know.

 

Depressing.  I moved over to N scale to get away from Hornby as I was sick to the back teeth of their attitudes.

Information coming out of Margate indicates that the N range is not under threat.

[woodenhead]

23 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

Information coming out of Margate indicates that the N range is not under threat.

Wouldn't it be nice if Hornby would use Oxford as a means of an arms length re-introduction of N gauge items like Lyddle end or maybe even more.

 

Though I expect it just means the diecast range.

[melmerby]

48 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

Information coming out of Margate indicates that the N range is not under threat.

Including just introducing a coach pack for the RCT train in Germany.

https://uk.arnoldmodel.com/products/arnold-n-1160-rct-4-unit-pack-coaches-aoethe-berlinera-bluebeige-livery-period-iv-hn4297

 

(not strictly UK!)

Edited August 3, 2021 by melmerby

[Hroth]

Perhaps this means that the Cowans Sheldon crane will finally get out of the door?

 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I can't see Hornby keeping two design teams for railway stuff.

 

You are of course assuming that there are two design teams.    I have a fairly srtrong suspicion from the pace at which Oxford Rail moves that they certainly don't have a 'team' of more than one person and even that person might not be anything like full time on rail items.   A large part of their development, and virtually all the design work, appears to be done in China with them merely supplying information and, presumably, some sort of specification.  The mechanics of the Radial was pretty near US  arrangements from a few decades back and various of their early problems with wagons suggested the depth of research was lacking although things have improved in that area and 'the loco they didn't make' (because it appeared in a Hornby box) wasn't too bad,  although it lacked some detail research into various differences as part of a class with multiple detail variations..

 

I suspect Oxford Rail will probably remain as a separate brand unless or until it suits Hornby to integrate it with their own ranges or it is considered suitable for sale as a separate going concern.  One of Hornby's most tradeable assets is its collection of brand names and they represent saleable earners especially if they can be sold complete with a current catalogue of models etc.

[tomparryharry]

19 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I can't see Hornby keeping two design teams for railway stuff.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't really agree with that. Surely, if it's viable, and profitable, then it'll be OK.  The assumption is slightly flawed, after all, a designer designs things.  " Hey! I'm not doing that! I'm supposed to do LSWR only...." Or.. "Oxford means Oxford, but if the money is right, I'll work as far as Didcot!"

 

Good luck to them, I say. After all, Bachmann  bought out EFE, didn't they?

[Miss Prism]

Fair points about my over-emphasised Oxford 'design team'. What I meant was there would have been someone at Oxford, perhaps only one person, who could say to China " 'ere, the brake gear is the wrong way around", and this seems to be borne out by what Stationmaster Mike is saying.

[adb968008]

Opportunistic timing for the Oxford brands owners though ?

year 3 Hornby business plan, Hornby just turned a profit..

good time to cash out ?

 

Is Hornby on the ascent or is it at a peak ?..

Time will tell, but the Dean Goods is done, J27 is done, Radial is done.. N7 probably has more mileage.. wagons look a winner though… things like Motorails, Tanks, warwells, ICI hoppers probably have some mileage, and of course the plank wagons have an infinite life.

I always wondered if the sliding door mk3’s came out of Oxford, elsewhere it was suggested the Terrier did.. so for Hornby railway range its probably not a bad outcome, I just hope it wasn't taken from the R&D budget.

 

I wonder though if this will see further consolidation of smaller brands into, or under umbrellas of larger incumbent companies.

Edited August 3, 2021 by adb968008

[G-BOAF]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

.... and 'the loco they didn't make' (because it appeared in a Hornby box) wasn't too bad,  although it lacked some detail research into various differences as part of a class with multiple detail variations...

 

Which model was this...?

Is it a model that was made for Hornby by Oxford, or dropped because Hornby made their own version? What's the story?

[adb968008]

3 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

 

Which model was this...?

Is it a model that was made for Hornby by Oxford, or dropped because Hornby made their own version? What's the story?

***Rumour*** (ive seen it suggested elsewhere a number of times) that the Terrier was an Oxford model project, moved to Hornby. Ive not seen it confirmed anywhere by anyone in power to actually confirm it.

Edited August 3, 2021 by adb968008