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Hornby to possibly re-release models under the Hornby-Dublo label.


jools1959
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Posted (edited)

I think they have to be careful though, Dublo is a historic brand, appealing to collectors who recall their youth on metal bodied locos.

 

Sticking every new release in a dublo box risks devaluing the brand, I think the current 500 and sticking relatively close to Dublo is prudent… so no metal class 56, no metal B12, but a metal Scot, Castle, 8f etc, perhaps stretching the edges with an N7 etc.

 

Back in the 1990’s Bachmann introduced the wooden box limited editions of 500.. starting with 5552, then continued with 850, 6100 etc they had the same impact as Dublo has now. But they got excited by price and increased volumes to 1000, 2000.. it destroyed the value to collectors, resulting in inevitable discounting and eventually killed it off the facade..a wooden box edition now doesn't mean a lot, except extra storage space is required… the last ones.. 45552/47164 were heavily discounted on day one, and sets broken up/boxes sold off !!!

 

I think what Hornby are doing is exactly the right thing…

 

Sticking with the 500 means even a bum release is likely to sate the audience, and still sellout. instead of doing 1 release of 1000, instead  focus on doing more releases, such as the two Bulleids, (exactly as they have)… imho they have a winner here and a winning formula.

 

What happened to Golden Age models ?, perhaps some of their ready to run oo rolling stock could find its way into a Dublo box ?

Edited by adb968008
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20 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

I saw Atholl advertised on Ebay for ~£1k !!

I do understand the market is what people are prepared to pay, but that is pretty blatant!!

 

Al.

People always try it on, the Duchess of Atholl was up for £500 and I think the guy has still got it. Look at the price on EBay for a Tender Driven loco, I figure mine when I sell them are worth £50.00 max, probably a lot less than that, but people on EBay advertise them for over £100.00. It worries me because I confuse them with the loco driven ones which do fetch nearer that price.

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8 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I think they have to be careful though, Dublo is a historic brand, appealing to collectors who recall their youth on metal bodied locos.

 

Sticking every new release in a dublo box risks devaluing the brand, I think the current 500 and sticking relatively close to Dublo is prudent… so no metal class 56, no metal B12, but a metal Scot, Castle, 8f etc, perhaps stretching the edges with an N7 etc.

 

Back in the 1990’s Bachmann introduced the wooden box limited editions of 500.. starting with 5552, then continued with 850, 6100 etc they had the same impact as Dublo has now. But they got excited by price and increased volumes to 1000, 2000.. it destroyed the value to collectors, resulting in inevitable discounting and eventually killed it off the facade..a wooden box edition now doesn't mean a lot, except extra storage space is required… the last ones.. 45552/47164 were heavily discounted on day one, and sets broken up/boxes sold off !!!

 

I think what Hornby are doing is exactly the right thing…

 

Sticking with the 500 means even a bum release is likely to sate the audience, and still sellout. instead of doing 1 release of 1000, instead  focus on doing more releases, such as the two Bulleids, (exactly as they have)… imho they have a winner here and a winning formula.

 

What happened to Golden Age models ?, perhaps some of their ready to run oo rolling stock could find its way into a Dublo box ?

But do these limited editions fetch more money in the long term? Yes they do it the first few years, but after that the price settles down. I had a few limited editions from the 80s, when I sold them I didn't get that much for them. Probably in twenty years time if Hornby are still going they will have better models, so the limited editions will probably not be worth as much as you think. Now if Hornby go bust then it is a different story.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

But do these limited editions fetch more money in the long term? Yes they do it the first few years, but after that the price settles down. I had a few limited editions from the 80s, when I sold them I didn't get that much for them. Probably in twenty years time if Hornby are still going they will have better models, so the limited editions will probably not be worth as much as you think. Now if Hornby go bust then it is a different story.

Its not about price, its about collectibility, i doubt its very much about usability either.

(please don’t tell me what I think btw, as it seems we actually agree).

 

As you say, price is a temporary thing.

Part of the reasons the Bachmann ones are worth nowt, is they got carried away, and the collectible value diminished..in short too many. To me the straw that broke the camels back was D172 Ixion at 2000 qty made, too many models and as a diesel, it didnt appeal to collectors either… the actual models themselves were no different to the blue boxed production ones, and subject to repetition with trivial changes to livery.

 

I recall the records on Bachmanns A4’s were the 60008 Dwight D Eisenhowers for the US market circa 1992-95 at £600 a piece, today, less than £100, collectors give up and moved on.

 

If the market for metal models matures, in a decade everything might be wholly metal and superdetailed and we‘ll look back on these as primitive, but as long as the markets not flooded, make 1 less than you can sell, this could be a little earner for Hornby until that time wholly metal models are mainstream once again, or its fizzled out.

 

As for future value, collectors of steam, I think, for this type of retro Dublo model are subject to attrition, just like we are seeing with Wrenn, the age group has passed, value declined.. thats why I see this Dublo range as a last hurrah… its a grand finale, hence not getting carried away in volume per sku, but focus on quality of skus, and take the longer game for as long as it lasts… because as soon as you make too many, and it doesn't sell out, imho it’ll be game over for the model and the brand.

 

Edited by adb968008
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On 03/08/2021 at 13:55, Pandora said:

For the majority of Dublo releases, there is no shortage of S/H to choose from, and the S/H prices are not excessive. For me this rules out a duplicate of a Dublo original

Candidates which have a scarcity may be the two unique Wrenn releases,  the Royal Scot of the Air smoothed  Bulleid Pacific.

A trawl through the Binns Road archives may reveal drawings of preposed  models by Dublo which never made production, such as the V2 later manufactured by the Dublo collectors, such models may have  strong sales interest.   a final  example .   the  LMS Beyer-Garratt produced in small numbers for Dublo collectors

The problem is that Hornby Dublo locomotives are finite,i mean,some people have 12 0-6-2 tank locos,why?.I have converted two of the latest spamcans to 3 rail,ok on the large radius curves,squeal a bit on the standard radius.

 

This the Jodel 3 rail Garratt,i waited over two years for this.

                          Ray.

20210323_102602.jpg

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15 hours ago, sagaguy said:

The problem is that Hornby Dublo locomotives are finite,i mean,some people have 12 0-6-2 tank locos,why?.I have converted two of the latest spamcans to 3 rail,ok on the large radius curves,squeal a bit on the standard radius.

 

This the Jodel 3 rail Garratt,i waited over two years for this.

                          Ray.

20210323_102602.jpg

Now that is a beautiful model (I wonder if the word beautiful has ever been applied to a B-G before? :))!

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On 07/08/2021 at 12:14, adb968008 said:


a new metal A4 and Coronation have already been done..6BBF93A0-E2DD-4A0F-AD0E-65C63A2D42C8.jpeg.6cf583bbd0be17f34502cbc9c06445db.jpeg

B746DD13-91B8-42FF-8FBC-2FF61F4006E1.jpeg.bb95ae67a39b97667029c1c6bc27daa7.jpeg

 

I hadn't paid much attention to these, but I have to say I'm impressed by the finesse of the A4 body casting, once the image is blown up. The nose area looks far more refined than the latest W1samples shown in another thread, in both detail and form.

 

The Nim. 

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The modern anniversary releases to celebrate Rovex,  the bodyshell castings  in metal,    are they:

1) new tooling  to the drawings of Dublo but with enhancements in detailing over and above the original Dublo tooling.

2) new tooling "in the spirit of Dublo" to replicate the Dublo look and feel.

3) The Dublo / Wrenn tooling returning from storage for a further lease of life

Edited by Pandora
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14 minutes ago, Pandora said:

The modern anniversary releases to celebrate Rovex,  the bodyshell castings  in metal,    are they:

1) new tooling  to the drawings of Dublo but with enhancements in detailing over and above the original Dublo tooling.

2) new tooling "in the spirit of Dublo" to replicate the Dublo look and feel.

3) The Dublo / Wrenn tooling returning from storage for a further lease of life

Its actually a modern specification Duchess, to modern standards of plastic, but the loco is a metal body.

Here’s Hornbys 2017 Duchess, next to the 1949 Dublo and 2020’s Metal one.

 

7A73DE9C-F68B-47D0-B131-72D4566D5E71.jpeg

47B00783-8725-4DB6-9E6D-BD75612CB5B9.jpeg

C4DD6D11-0AE4-4E73-9BE4-C5054946073F.jpeg

88CDBEFC-F74C-496D-B1AB-5A0904E501D1.jpeg

03B07636-0B05-4859-B1A4-D9CBBC805E43.jpeg

CD895FCD-279A-4382-8299-D68A269D32F2.jpeg

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  • 2 weeks later...

Have just received an email from Hornby to say that M/N General Steam Navigation is in the warehouse and will be delivered in a few days.

 

Just received a further email (5pm) saying they had arrived and available to order now - limited to 500 each model - no mention of being "sold-out" - yet!

Edited by Bulleidboy100
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  • 1 month later...

Watched the TV program yesterday on Hornby which featured the Die Cast MN . Interesting . I’m still puzzled over batch sizes though . In the program I think Simon Kohler was heard to muse that limiting it to 500 would increase the value of it for collectors . Good for the collectors but you would have thought Hornby would be after maximising their own revenue rather than hoping the model appreciates ( they only get the initial £250 regardless) . Why would they not have gone for 1000 models? You’ve got all the costs of diecast  design but spread over 1000 units rather than 500 . Got to drive the unit cost down giving more margin to Hornby .  When you then see Invicta models got an allocation of one model there surely was scope for a larger production run . Same with the original Duchess of Atholl . They could easily have sold double .  Why the low numbers ? Is it just silly marketing?  Hornby need the money now 

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yes you would in theory get more profit, from having 1000 - when you sell them. until then you've spent all that money on getting them built but without the cash in pocket of the sales.

Even Hornby have to look at their cash flow - you can only build what you can afford to build even if you can sell more than that...

Modern outsourced manufacturing isn't something I'd like to be basing a business on..

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I've no interest at all in the model, I don't even know what its price is, but just to remember the point.....if the retail price is £250 (or whatever), that is the price paid by the consumer to the shop he buys it from. The shop pays trade price to Hornby, which is lower - so Hornby only get the trade price per item. (Unless of course the consumer gets it direct from Hornby of course).

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4 hours ago, Legend said:

Watched the TV program yesterday on Hornby which featured the Die Cast MN . Interesting . I’m still puzzled over batch sizes though . In the program I think Simon Kohler was heard to muse that limiting it to 500 would increase the value of it for collectors . Good for the collectors but you would have thought Hornby would be after maximising their own revenue rather than hoping the model appreciates ( they only get the initial £250 regardless) . Why would they not have gone for 1000 models? You’ve got all the costs of diecast  design but spread over 1000 units rather than 500 . Got to drive the unit cost down giving more margin to Hornby .  When you then see Invicta models got an allocation of one model there surely was scope for a larger production run . Same with the original Duchess of Atholl . They could easily have sold double .  Why the low numbers ? Is it just silly marketing?  Hornby need the money now 

 

Hornby has the capacity to use the same moulds and jigs and assembly workforce for many variations on the Princess, Duchess and Merchant Navy models, thus increasing the returns.

 

The limit to 500 improved their margins by allowing quick sale at a good price. It may well be that these rather attractive models will be sufficiently popular to engender a whole series over the next few years, and that might include other models like A3 or A4  King or Castle, or whichever type appeals.

 

In any event the die-cast tools will I expect be used for more than 500 models. With just a small change we could have a 'Duchess of Montrose' in die-cast limited to 750 models and I can just image what these would go for on Ebay!  :)

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500 looks to be the magic number and I think they called it right.

 

This one did not just evaporate to dust like 6231 did. It stuck on the shelves for a few weeks and has largely sold out, but it wasn't an instant sell out… that said it was 3 models all at once, rather than spread out.

 

if they had made 1000 I think it would be still in stock and at the factory too, tieing up cash for the longer term and pushing out future releases. Further it risks shops discounting it, which would dilute the dublo brand value.. which for something niche as this would be bad for attracting collectors to buy it.

 

What I find interesting was when 6231 came out, it dissapeared immediately, and not many images of it appeared here or elsewhere. These three just made are much more visible.. so who bought 6231 that made them squirrel it away ?


500 sold out,  Thats all they need.

Edited by adb968008
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Well being one of the first of the postwar generation to experience HornbyDublo ,I for one purchased 6231.The MN was not of that ilk,so maybe these owe more to its 2017 issue ( or SK’s favour) . The next obvious choice is an A4 in diecast.No.7 Sir Nigel Gresley being I think favourite to be followed by its BR.green Dublo successors 

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4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

....

 

What I find interesting was when 6231 came out, it dissapeared immediately, and not many images of it appeared here or elsewhere. These three just made are much more visible.. so who bought 6231 that made them squirrel it away ?


500 sold out,  Thats all they need.

 

I bought one after they went up in price, then by sheer chance found another in a NZ retailer's list at RRP so bought that too...    a brother bought one too, so between us we control the market, well, almost, ...

 

here is one of mine at a virtual Camden shed...  imposing bulk!

 

6231_duchess_portrait61_shed_5abcde_r1500.jpg.1ba1f8c8e8679d60fe42650a3839b2fb.jpg

 

edited photo will remove if inappropriate.

 

p.s.  growing up in the 40s and 50s we had an original Atholl too, and I bought a set two years ago as a momento of the age... almost unused, TW would not approve. :)

Edited by robmcg
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2 hours ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Yes I figured Sir Nigel Gresley to be next, that would seem logical. I won't be surprised if it was in Wartime Black, they seem to sell quicker.

 

I know it's wishlisting, which makes some around here wince, but my faourite livery for A4s is post-war LNER blue without valances...  as per this non-existent Hornby model, edited.

 

7_4498_A4_LNER_Sir_Nigel_Gresley_1abc_r2080.jpg.5d57b28ab5d0aedf89969e9273726e0c.jpg

 

Will remove if required.

 

 

Edited by robmcg
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1 hour ago, robmcg said:

 

I know it's wishlisting, which makes some around here wince, but my faourite livery for A4s is post-war LNER blue without valances...  as per this non-existent Hornby model, edited.

 

7_4498_A4_LNER_Sir_Nigel_Gresley_1abc_r2080.jpg.5d57b28ab5d0aedf89969e9273726e0c.jpg

 

Will remove if required.

 

 

I have a print of a painting of Sir Nigel Gresley running down the track surrounded by snow, I bought it at the Railway Museum in York. It took me a while to realise it was post war as Sir Nigel was in LNER Garter Blue, with no valances.

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On 08/08/2021 at 17:41, cbrooks122000 said:

Jenny Kirk was saying, when she could not get a Duchess of Atholl that perhaps Hornby should do a run of 750. Trouble is at the moment you do your preorder and hope that you get one. I suppose though if you don't you have saved yourself an awful lot of money.

 

She did not look Hard enough then, I copped 4 Duchess's one off the LMS shelf, others off the net. :)

 

I have one MN on order but that is only for the pulling power due the extra weight.

 

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21 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Well being one of the first of the postwar generation to experience HornbyDublo ,I for one purchased 6231.The MN was not of that ilk,so maybe these owe more to its 2017 issue ( or SK’s favour) . The next obvious choice is an A4 in diecast.No.7 Sir Nigel Gresley being I think favourite to be followed by its BR.green Dublo successors 

I think an A4 maybe a mistake.. too early in the range, and there is equal detailed rtr metal competition too in the market.

 

I think they need to keep them Dublo models as “must haves” for now, i’d push an A4 further back and bring up something more of a life extension on whats been done in plastic, something like a Castle or an 8F, maybe a King… indeed a cheeky one would be a new original Scot.

 

In my mind LNER is being over sold, the A4 is oversold, and the Dublo brand is a longer term winner, so dont mix.

 

 

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I think an A4 maybe a mistake.. too early in the range, and there is equal detailed rtr metal competition too in the market.

 

I think they need to keep them Dublo models as “must haves” for now, i’d push an A4 further back and bring up something more of a life extension on whats been done in plastic, something like a Castle or an 8F, maybe a King… indeed a cheeky one would be a new original Scot.

 

In my mind LNER is being over sold, the A4 is oversold, and the Dublo brand is a longer term winner, so dont mix.

 

 

 

 


Oh really?  Despite the fact that both No.7 and D of A “train sets “ were first out of the blocks postwar. A mistake?  Mix what and with what ingredients because the current marketing is blatantly skewed towards nostalgia ? Presumably you refer to Dapol’s market entry which simply doesn’t come close in any respect.  LNER oversold ? As you say,in your head . There maybe some who might not agree.
 

Sorry I don’t buy this at all.

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9 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

 

She did not look Hard enough then, I copped 4 Duchess's one off the LMS shelf, others off the net. :)

 

I have one MN on order but that is only for the pulling power due the extra weight.

 

I am only quoting what she said in her video, she is mates with Simon Kohler who give her one out of Horby's special stock. We are talking about the Duchess of Athol released about a year ago, not the City of Leicester where there do seem to be more available. I never liked the the Duchess without smoke deflectors so I never even bothered trying to get one, but there were a lot of people on the Hornby site that were disappointed not to get one. There were some on EBay at ridiculous prices, but I suspect like me did not want to make a "scalper" rich. This year's versions were much easier to obtain and to me, much nicer.

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