Midland Rly traffic originating at Carnforth – what was it, where did it go..

[MR Chuffer]

I’m looking at extracts of the MR November 1881 WTT in the book The Skipton Colne Railway (Donald Binns) and the Midland is originating goods trains at Carnforth to go via Skipton (reversal) and then off to Colne where, presumably, it would be handed over to the L&Y. That is unless it was for Manchester Ancoats or Liverpool, in which case wouldn’t it have turned right at Hellifield and come down the shorter Clitheroe line, like the MR Scotch Expresses and Goods.

 

There are 2 workings each way daily, with more Midland workings from Colne to and from Bradford. Any ideas as to what the principle traffic from/to Carnforth could have been, and where it was going, especially if it was handed over to the L&Y at Colne?

 

Thx.
 

[Curlew]

Pig iron from Carnforth and other North Lancashire ironworks is one guess. The Lake District was also a major producer of wooden bobbins for the textile industry - not just for the UK but worldwide.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Curlew
correction

[corneliuslundie]

Or limestone etc the other way for the blast furnaces at Carnforth and thereabouts?

Jonathan

[CKPR]

Timber, high-quality iron ore, stone and finished steel & iron products would also be likely outward traffic off the FR as well as imported goods and materials off-loaded at Barrow docks, including oil and petrol.

Edited August 3, 2021 by CKPR

[Compound2632]

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of traffic would be exchanged at Carnforth with the Furness.

[MR Chuffer]

Thanks, all the responses above make a lot of sense and will fit nicely with what I am doing.

[Compound2632]

In the MRSC catalogue search, put "Furness" with the category set to "Label Wagon" - that provides a few hints. You know what comes from Burton! (Not relevant to the Colne route, I'm afraid.)

 

Take a look at MRSC Item 31772: rails from the Barrow Haematite Co. consigned on Furness Railway wagons Nos. 14019, 14823, and 37770 - single bolster wagons, perhaps?

 

Also bundles of rags: see MRSC Item 31721.

[MR Chuffer]

14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

MRSC catalogue search

And of course, we are pre-Heysham days so Irish cattle, flax and all manner of imports.

 

Will look at the MRSC catalogue this evening, thx.

Edited August 3, 2021 by MR Chuffer

[John-Miles]

57 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of traffic would be exchanged at Carnforth with the Furness.

Why wouldn't this traffic use the direct line via Wennington? If it went to Carnforth it would have to be shuttled across the WC main line.

 

I had a distant relative who was in charge of the refreshment room at Carnforth. Sadly she wasn't in the film (Brief Encounters).

 

 

[MR Chuffer]

19 minutes ago, John-Miles said:

the direct line

My guess would be that the Furness had to hand over to the Midland locos at that point and there was also goods exchange with the LNWR for a quicker route to Bradford, Leeds and East Lancashire generally.

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, John-Miles said:

Why wouldn't this traffic use the direct line via Wennington? If it went to Carnforth it would have to be shuttled across the WC main line.

 

Yes, traffic for the Midland from the Furness (and vice-versa) went via Carnforth (where there was a bridge over the LNWR!) and Wennington. See the RCH Junction diagrams:

 

 

There were exchange sidings alongside the east-west chord bypassing the passenger station, together with Furness-LNWR exchange sidings. (Missing from the RCH map but shown on the 1910 OS 25" map.) 

[corneliuslundie]

I was wrong about limestone but coke was brought in from Durham to the ironworks:

https://sites.google.com/site/carnforthironworks/history

though the ironworks was in decline in the 20th century and closed in 1929.

There is a very good book on Carnforth - which I used to own.

Jonathan

[Regularity]

You owned Carnforth?

[Compound2632]

One of those wagon labels, MRSC Item 14627, is for gas coal from the Barrow Collieries, Barnsley. There's no coincidence in the name - it was owned by the Barrow Haematite Steel Co. who sank it to provide for the needs of their Barrow-in-Furness plant. So their wagons are an obvious must for mineral trains passing along the Leeds-Carnforth line:

 

 

[Embedded image from https://www.nmrs.org.uk/mines-map/coal-mining-in-the-british-isles/yorkshire-coalfield/barnsley/barrow-colliery/.]

 

My understanding is that "Silkstone" refers to a particular seam in the Barnsley coalfield, rather than the village.

 

The yellow livery that has been used on various RTR models is, I am confident, based on a builder's photo of a wagon in a photographic livery; the model has a nicely-printed Chas. Roberts builder's plate:

I'd be interested to be proven wrong!

 

I read that the Barrow Barnsley Main name dates from 1932.

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Compound2632

[MR Chuffer]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

dates from 1932.

- Bit later than my pre-WW1 period, but fascinating nonetheless

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

- Bit later than my pre-WW1 period, but fascinating nonetheless

 

Quite. You want the interesting wagons in the first photo.

[WFPettigrew]

On 03/08/2021 at 16:34, MR Chuffer said:

My guess would be that the Furness had to hand over to the Midland locos at that point and there was also goods exchange with the LNWR for a quicker route to Bradford, Leeds and East Lancashire generally.

Belatedly adding to this - traffic exchanged between the MR and FR was done at Carnforth, on the now removed lines between the Furness and Midland Joint, and the FR at the appropriately named Furness and Midland Junction.  While the FR jointly owned the F&MJt the only trains it operated on the Carnforth-Wennington line were ballast trains as part of its responsiblity to maintain the track - all trains were run by the MR, so locos were exchanged at Carnforth. 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Compound2632]

The Midland had eyed up the Furness for some time but during the height of the prosperity of the iron ore mining the Furness shareholders got a better dividend than they ever could from the Midland. For much of the latter part of the 19th century, the Midland used Barrow as its port for Ireland. Then the iron ore extraction ceased to pay and the Furness wasn't so prosperous; the Midland was less interested and developed Heysham as its port for Ireland and the Isle of Man instead.