Bachmann announce NEW Class 47

[Matt]

32 minutes ago, Krieghoff said:

Does anyone know where there are any Class 47 sound deluxe models left. Rails have all sold out and i cant locate any other suppliers who have them available to pre order. Thanks. 

Derails looks like might still have some?

[younGGuns7]

12 minutes ago, Matt said:

Derails looks like might still have some?

Have you tried TMC?

[TomScrut]

23 minutes ago, The Ghost of IKB said:

That seems to answer all  that moaning about "will they sell?, is there the market for this new model? Is it too expensive?"

Well, if its true that its already selling out, then the answers would seem to be 'yes','yes' and 'definately not' in that order.

Maybe Bachmann do actually know their market better than the experts on here.

 

The deluxe could only be 5-10% of the run. I expect they won't want burning by it!

 

*IF* there was a relevant one for me and the film should be on the loco in question then I'd probably be getting a deluxe.

[russ p]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Thanks, my modelling cuts off at the end of 1963, so I'll stick with clear screens.

 

John 

 

Talking to a mate earlier who is involved with D1842 and he says the screen tinge is on the earlier locos as they had gold in the screen for the demister 

[Lowlander]

1 hour ago, Krieghoff said:

Does anyone know where there are any Class 47 sound deluxe models left. Rails have all sold out and i cant locate any other suppliers who have them available to pre order. Thanks. 

Try Rainbow Railways.

[TomScrut]

19 minutes ago, The 158 Man said:

I'm old fashioned analogue/DC. Any of this new type stuff is lost on a thicko like me.

 

Exactly, DCC ready is probably 60% of the run at least I expect?

[mdvle]

11 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Is it though? They could have been working on it for 3 or 4 years for all we know.

 

Accurascale announced their first loco - Deltic - 3 years ago (Nov. 21st 2018), Bachmann stated in their video that the Class 47 has been a 3 year project...

 

So while likely not a direct response to Accurascale, it was likely influenced by a number of factors:

• Accurascale and their design philosophy
• the entry of Hattons into the mainstream market with the 66 (May 2018)
• the entry (albeit with twists and turns) of Rapido - both directly and through commission work
• SLW
• the potential of others to be entering the market
• observation of what was happening elsewhere in the world of model trains

 

11 hours ago, TomScrut said:

Given Bachmann development times tend to be fairly prolonged, combined with the fact they are ahead of Heljan on progress, I expect this was started before the Heljan one was public knowledge.

 

Heljan went public July 2019, so about a year after Bachmann's start according to the video - though we don't know when Heljan started, just when they went public.

 

12 hours ago, The 158 Man said:

Well they don't seem to mind competing with Hornby or Heljan. 

 

They really didn't compete with them though - back then while there was some overlap it basically was a duopoly between Hornby and Bachmann with the occasional item from Heljan or Dapol - and for the most part the 2 smaller companies avoided direct competition.

 

Needless to say things have changed (for the better) in the last 5 or so years.

[TomScrut]

9 minutes ago, mdvle said:

Accurascale announced their first loco - Deltic - 3 years ago (Nov. 21st 2018), Bachmann stated in their video that the Class 47 has been a 3 year project...

 

So while likely not a direct response to Accurascale, it was likely influenced by a number of factors:

• Accurascale and their design philosophy
• the entry of Hattons into the mainstream market with the 66 (May 2018)
• the entry (albeit with twists and turns) of Rapido - both directly and through commission work
• SLW
• the potential of others to be entering the market
• observation of what was happening elsewhere in the world of model trains

 

Exactly, and I aren't denying they were potentially reacting to the market. It is just that I don't think they were directly reacting to that particular company alone especially with the timescales I thought were in play and you have very kindly done the research to confirm!

 

It also doesn't mean to say that the project hasn't been moulded (pun intended) over the last few years, a point I made on another thread on here is how Bachmann have been hit and miss with lighting combinations etc., whereas AS have always been very keen to tell us of the combinations. Bachmann were very keen to tell us about the versatility of their tooling on Tuesday, and fair play to them.

[Krieghoff]

Many thanks to those forum members who directed mt to Rainbow Railways and TMC. I have secured the two Sound Deluxe versions of the class 47. Intercity Swallow and Tinsley RFD.

 

Thats what i like best about you folks. Always very helpful.

 

Thankyou

[sanspareil]

Whilst there are positives about a staged approach to livery releases over some years one negative thing is if your desired livery is not a batch one release then by next year prices will likely be up 10% or maybe more. Unless I am wrong it seems Bachmann prices go up around 10% or so each year (even when inflation is low as it has been in recent times), if next year is a higher inflation year as predicted (with other increased costs to possibly pass on too if sustained) then we might see even higher rises..... Gulp.

For example you can see how the MK2F's costs have risen quickly with a few years of inflation busting rises and now sit at about £60 with the full discount applied.

 

I wonder will Bachmann keep/maybe reduce the price of its legacy 47 as a form of 'railroad deluxe' type model to cover the less affluent market and fill a void between Hornby's super basic 'toy' offering and Bachmann's bells and whistles 'Bentley' version? A lot of people wont be able to afford the new tooling (and the way model prices are going in general) but want more than Hornby railroad. Whilst we all might want a Bentley we cant all afford one, but maybe can afford something better than a Dacia, if you catch my drift!

Edited August 6, 2021 by sanspareil

[maico]

!

On 04/08/2021 at 16:40, woodenhead said:

Or you get the driver going backwards or two drivers one at the front and one at the back.

 

 

It's already been done! The driver pops up in the direction of travel and the pantographs can be raised digitally depending on direction too...

 

https://www.trix.de/produkte/details/article/22932

 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by maico

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, sanspareil said:

Whilst there are positives about a staged approach to livery releases over some years one negative thing is if your desired livery is not a batch one release then by next year prices will likely be up 10% or maybe more. Unless I am wrong it seems Bachmann prices go up around 10% or so each year (even when inflation is low as it has been in recent times), if next year is a higher inflation year as predicted (with other increased costs to possibly pass on too if sustained) then we might see even higher rises..... Gulp.

For example you can see how the MK2F's costs have risen quickly with a few years of inflation busting rises and now sit at about £60 with the full discount applied.

 

I wonder will Bachmann keep/maybe reduce the price of its legacy 47 as a form of 'railroad deluxe' type model to cover the less affluent market and fill a void between Hornby's super basic 'toy' offering and Bachmann's bells and whistles 'Bentley' version? A lot of people wont be able to afford the new tooling (and the way model prices are going in general) but want more than Hornby railroad. Whilst we all might want a Bentley we cant all afford one, but maybe can afford something better than a Dacia, if you catch my drift!

TBH I can't see Bachmann doing this, it would just rob production slots to self-duplicate models they've just spent over a million quid developing and cannibalise sales of those at (presumably) a lower rate of return. In any case, they are offering a choice of three levels in the new ones as things stand.  

 

Arguably, the new Heljan one will sit in the gap between Bachmann base level (with probably little to choose between the two) and the Limby ones, especially after a year or two of the kind of Bachmann price rises we're accustomed to.

 

If Bachmann don't get the rate of release about right, you'll get folk complaining either that they can't afford to keep up with it or, on the other hand, that they are having to wait too long for the versions they most want, potentially allowing Heljan to get the drop on them. 

 

The trend across the hobby is higher detail, higher cost, and the difficulty some are describing in reserving the premium versions suggests there's more than enough money sloshing around the sector that wants OO Class 47s to justify that.

 

Those of us who can't/won't shell out for all we'd like will have to be content with what we can/will. Ultimately, the choice will be between quality and quantity. Either fewer in blue boxes or cheaper alternatives if we want more individual models. The brutal truth is that very few businesses strive to cater for the skint and the tight, and even fewer ever made a decent living from doing so.

 

Bachmann has no plan to join them, simple as that.

 

John

 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[JohnR]

I've looked at pictures of 47s, and even in the ones where you can see the effect of the tinted windscreens, it simply doesnt look as strong as the images of the Bachmann model. 

[KeithHC]

Maybe as good PR Bachmann could give James Makin a couple to play with………

 

Juat as a matter of interest does the fan give any cooling effect to the onboard electronics. It would have been nice to see Bachmann to give the option of EM wheel sets but never mind it will happen soon.

 

Keith

[ruggedpeak]

7 hours ago, maico said:

!

 

It's already been done! The driver pops up in the direction of travel and the pantographs can be raised digitally depending on direction too...

 

https://www.trix.de/produkte/details/article/22932

 

 

Wow, from the website

 

"Movable locomotive engineer figures in both cabs.

Locomotive engineer also changes with a change of the direction of travel in analog operation."

[Class 158 productions]

They could re release the older tooling, but it probably wouldn’t be budget. The last ones were £169.99 rrp before being removed from the website. Although they could’ve done what they did with the 45s, 66s and later 37s and reduce the price. I suspect the reason they haven’t offered the older ones is the same reason Hornby don’t do many railroad HSTs. I’m sure the majority wouldn’t care about the detail differences and just buy the cheaper one, if the vocal voices on Facebook and etc are to be believed. Hopefully with the new duff we see re-releases of the MK2F in blue and executive! With a decent number of TSOs! 

[ruggedpeak]

In terms of this annoucement it is an exciting development. and the new models look stunning (love the Tinsley RfD). However £200 a loco with discount is pushing the boundaries for me personally. That will depend on 2 things which any product needs to achieve, especially at a premium price point:

 

1. the model operates properly in all apects, running, lights etc - not something that is not always schieved
2. Details don't break or fall off easily - sadly a common occurence these days with super detail.

In terms of the pricing I have no doubt looking at a range of sectors that there are enough customers wiling and able to £300+ for a loco, so I don't see Bachmann having a problem if they have got their forecasts right. Seems to be OK for locos, but £70-100 a coach has not been so well received in the market as far as I can tell. Interesting divide between locos and rolling stock. I'm guessing customers do not place such a premium on detail in coaches. Exciting times however!

 

The one note of caution is that as UK outline moves towards continential pricing is there a threat from the continental manufacturers starting to take an interest as the market valiues/margins moves into their range?

[Markwj]

I notice they haven’t offered just a dcc fitted version ,hopefully it’s easy to take apart and fit a chip. I guess the reviews will tell us.

mark

[TomScrut]

17 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

Seems to be OK for locos, but £70-100 a coach has not been so well received in the market as far as I can tell. Interesting divide between locos and rolling stock. I'm guessing customers do not place such a premium on detail in coaches. Exciting times however!

 

I think the issue there is more the cost of a complete train. I am on the fence about buying a rake of DRS and ScotRail mk2fs to replace my Hornby ones, only reason I am on the fence is because they aren't a must have on my layout.

 

19 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

The one note of caution is that as UK outline moves towards continential pricing is there a threat from the continental manufacturers starting to take an interest as the market valiues/margins moves into their range?

 

That's an interesting point! I don't really know enough about them to comment any further though.

[E100]

I think for me some of these requests are starting to get a bit much in terms of cab crew. Surely to best cater for everyone's needs they are better 'simply' making the cab accessible for fitting with aftermarket figures wearing the exact correct gear to the right level of detail for each modeler? Otherwise they will be gluing in a figure that for needs replacing anyway by some / some who want no figures / some who want them at both ends /  1 or 2 figures depending on duty and era etc etc.

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, 73080 said:

 

No, distinctly tinted windscreens are definitely visible on separate photos of D1730 and D1732 in ex-works gsyp  (and D1733 in its original experimental blue livery) in 1964.  (See Strathwood's Sixties Diesel & Electric Days Remembered Volume III page 84 for D1730, page 77 for D1732 & page 54 for D1733 without red panels in 1965 and Volume II page 81 for D1733 with red panels in 1964.

 

The apparent windscreen tint can vary from subtle to pronounced, depending on the angle it is viewed and/or on lighting conditions.  Windscreen grime may also make it more pronounce.  Therefore, it is much easier to be certain that a photo shows a tinted windscreen, than to say that a loco does NOT have a tinted windscreen from a photo. 

 

For example, how may of you would say that D1733 in its amended experimental blue livery (i.e. without red side panels) had tinted windows from this photo ?   https://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/27787240094

 

That said, I have found no certain evidence of tinted windscreens in all the Class 47 colour photos I have seen that were taken before autumn 1963  (D1500, 08, 19, 20, 24 & 31 and D1685). 

 

From photographic evidence, alternative expanations are possible, including:

a)  the 1962 and some or all 1963 built locos did not have tinted windows ex-works; or

b)  the tinting or these locos was more subtle than on later locos, and so is less visible on photos; or

c)  by a quirk of chance, the tinting was not apparent in these photos (in my opinion very unlikely).

 

Viewing photos of gsyp liveried Class 47s taken in 1965-1967, tinted windows can definitely be determined in over 75% of the colour photos.

 

Anyone thinking of buying the tinted windscreen version of D1565 in gsyp perhaps would like to view this later photo of D1565 in gfye livery before deciding: https://www.flickr.com/photos/robmcrorie/16431499903/in/photolist-r2ZJst-26E6r57-21jZh4i-tTkbE5-23bw7hm-2kTYoDG-2kZji4T-2i2tQzr-2bXvyH7-2iCMjN8-2iT8mZD-2iVfFdp-AKBEhd-2gja8De-2hYpNUj-2hYpNTs-2gjJmvm-9p5jeo-SgmLKY-2hWtJPp-282WTxk-26E6r4f-9p5jcW-282WTrD-b5D5LR-2kfoxeT-2dxVe5Q-adPA5d-2e2C3TK-zGvFUD-qUgiyY-chHU8m-aNKbM8-AT448H-e6vm7S-e74vq7-MeaovP-282WTu4-282WTvX-5hboZj-26E6r6Q-28jr5NU-26E6r3o-282WTon-282WTmP-26E6r2w-LawG9r-S6zEKb-26E6r5s-2ktXywS

 

Absence of proof of tinted windscreens is not proof of absence.

With the possible exception of the original  batch, using material originally destined for 'Peaks'  the so called 'tinted windscreen' (which it isn't) was there from early on.  It shows up very obviously in my b&w pic, taken at Canton, of a brand new D1593 which can be found elsewhere on RMweb.  And to get the facts right the windscreen was not 'tinted' but had a film (according to one contemporaneous source it incorporated gold!) applied onto the glass, the glass itself was not tinted.   The extent to which it can be seen varied very much according to the angle of view and the  (natural) lighting of the subject.

 

I did take a photo of then  brand new D1502 at Newcastle but the angle and lack of natural light from the correct angle doesn't really give a clue either way about whether or not the film had been applied that early. But my photo of D1593 confirms that it was present on new build locos in June 1964 9and was probably there before that from what I can recall but can offer a confirmatory photo.

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, maico said:

!

 

It's already been done! The driver pops up in the direction of travel and the pantographs can be raised digitally depending on direction too...

 

https://www.trix.de/produkte/details/article/22932

 

 

IIRC, the old Tri-ang pantographs were digitally controlled, using a wide choice of digits.

 

John

[Joseph_Pestell]

41 minutes ago, E100 said:

I think for me some of these requests are starting to get a bit much in terms of cab crew. Surely to best cater for everyone's needs they are better 'simply' making the cab accessible for fitting with aftermarket figures wearing the exact correct gear to the right level of detail for each modeler? Otherwise they will be gluing in a figure that for needs replacing anyway by some / some who want no figures / some who want them at both ends /  1 or 2 figures depending on duty and era etc etc.

 

I have rather mixed feelings about crew in cabs. Why are they still there when the loco is parked at the MPD? Why is there one at the trailing end of the loco but not in the leading cab?

[Georgeconna]

10 hours ago, maico said:

!

 

It's already been done! The driver pops up in the direction of travel and the pantographs can be raised digitally depending on direction too...

 

https://www.trix.de/produkte/details/article/22932

 

 

 

Good god, that is lovely, Please stop putting up these tempting pictures!

 

[Michael Hodgson]

51 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

IIRC, the old Tri-ang pantographs were digitally controlled, using a wide choice of digits.

 

John

Yes indeed, you could use any of your fingers to poke them up/down, or even somebody else's fingers !