Bachmann announce NEW Class 47

[No Decorum]

3 hours ago, neal said:

And the guy has the nerve to criticise model’s for poor running when they are most likely full of fluff…woeful

 

N

He has said that he gets very little fluff in his models.

[Class 158 productions]

11 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

He has said that he gets very little fluff in his models.

He’s also extremely inconsistent and often gets facts completely wrong. Whilst I agree that some of his opinions are valid and that he is a force for good in the hobby. His brand biases are often clear but sometimes deserved. However when he criticises a small Victorian locomotive for not being able to go round go cart corners up a scale Mount Everest at 125 mph whilst hauling an express train, I tend not to take him that seriously. I’d be interested to see his view on   this new duff, he’ll probably prefer the railroad one. That’s fine.

[Michael Hodgson]

Why are you bothering about ill-informed observations made by somebody whose opinions you just don't rate?

[Class 158 productions]

On 03/09/2021 at 11:15, Michael Hodgson said:

Why are you bothering about ill-informed observations made by somebody whose opinions you just don't rate?

Mainly because he represents a large part of the hobby, just look at a lot of the comments on Bachmann videos. His fans clamouring for metal bearings etc. Anyway off topic back onto the duff, does anyone know if the tooling caters for the later style cooling grilles that some 47s now have? Not serk, the metallic ones that look a bit like the ones on a 57. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Class 158 productions

[G-BOAF]

On 03/09/2021 at 10:06, Class 158 productions said:

He’s also extremely inconsistent and often gets facts completely wrong. Whilst I agree that some of his opinions are valid and that he is a force for good in the hobby. His brand biases are often clear but sometimes deserved. However when he criticises a small Victorian locomotive for not being able to go round go cart corners up a scale Mount Everest at 125 mph whilst hauling an express train, I tend not to take him that seriously. I’d be interested to see his view on   this new duff, he’ll probably prefer the railroad one. That’s fine.

 

What do you expect. It is very clear he makes money off hattons (who pay for the affiliate links on his reviews), who have severed their relationship with Bachmann. Why should we be surprised if he slates Bachmann when they are not stocked by his key financial supporter. What is a disgrace is that people tollerate this.

I know he will complain about the Bachmann 47, and how it can be priced at over £200 when accurascale are producing their Deltic/37 at £160 (which completely misses the different cost bases that the businesses have, and ignores the greater number of tooling variations that Bachmann have invested in, and also the fact that if the Accurascale models were announced today, they would be at a similar price, and indeed the 92s will be going up in Jan 2022)....

[TomScrut]

38 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

and how it can be priced at over £200 when accurascale are producing their Deltic/37 at £160 (which completely misses the different cost bases that the businesses have, and ignores the greater number of tooling variations that Bachmann have invested in, and also the fact that if the Accurascale models were announced today, they would be at a similar price, and indeed the 92s will be going up in Jan 2022)

 

In fairness, a comparison to an AS 37 is quite fair in my eyes.

1. If their cost model makes their prices expensive (and to an extent, uncompetitive IMO) vs the rest of the market then maybe there should be some self reflection done on their part as to why? If I owned a business and somebody was constantly undercutting me whilst offering good products I would want to know why, and if there was anything I could do about it act accordingly. I aren't saying there is anything Bachmann can do, and I also fully expect that conversations have taken place accordingly there so I don't want to sound like I am being critical here (as they may be doing it the right way in terms of making money). For example both companies are at different points in their market life cycle (if that is a term) and therefore the pricing could be a factor there too. Look at the massive price disparity between a Bachmann HKA and a AS IIA/HYA, both detailed wagons of more or less identical size, and the more expensive one (and possibly least complex when comparing with the Biomass IIA) has been on the market.
2. You are right in that the price for an AS 37 would in all likelihood be more expensive if announced now, but I aren't sure it would be as much as this 47, for reasoning above.
3. The 37 does have a significant amount of tooling variations so not sure what you're getting at there. 55 and 92 I'd agree but not the 37.
4. We do however, not really know how good the products are until they arrive, only past experience from both, which in AS's case is minimal via IRM.

I aren't trying to be negative about either here, I buy stuff from both companies, but I think the above are fair or factual comments (or I would not have made them), and the price of this 47 would't stop me buying one.

 

48 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

I know he will complain about the Bachmann 47

 

It will be interesting to hear what he has to say about the top model. I expect along the lines of "A chip only costs £5 to make, a motor £5 from China and that colouring from the glass is pence, it's a rip off at £130 more"

[G-BOAF]

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

 

In fairness, a comparison to an AS 37 is quite fair in my eyes.

1. If their cost model makes their prices expensive (and to an extent, uncompetitive IMO) vs the rest of the market then maybe there should be some self reflection done on their part as to why? If I owned a business and somebody was constantly undercutting me whilst offering good products I would want to know why, and if there was anything I could do about it act accordingly. I aren't saying there is anything Bachmann can do, and I also fully expect that conversations have taken place accordingly there so I don't want to sound like I am being critical here (as they may be doing it the right way in terms of making money). For example both companies are at different points in their market life cycle (if that is a term) and therefore the pricing could be a factor there too. Look at the massive price disparity between a Bachmann HKA and a AS IIA/HYA, both detailed wagons of more or less identical size, and the more expensive one (and possibly least complex when comparing with the Biomass IIA) has been on the market.
2. You are right in that the price for an AS 37 would in all likelihood be more expensive if announced now, but I aren't sure it would be as much as this 47, for reasoning above.
3. The 37 does have a significant amount of tooling variations so not sure what you're getting at there. 55 and 92 I'd agree but not the 37.
4. We do however, not really know how good the products are until they arrive, only past experience from both, which in AS's case is minimal via IRM.

I aren't trying to be negative about either here, I buy stuff from both companies, but I think the above are fair or factual comments (or I would not have made them), and the price of this 47 would't stop me buying one.

 

 

It will be interesting to hear what he has to say about the top model. I expect along the lines of "A chip only costs £5 to make, a motor £5 from China and that colouring from the glass is pence, it's a rip off at £130 more"

 

I guess re AS 37 I was thinking that it probably isn't quite as comprehenisve in variations compared to the Bachmann 47. The 37/4s are only late life and don't cover original refurb locos (for example). I believe there are other gaps that AS have indicated they will fill, but are not currently on the horizon. Bachmann presumably also have a 57 hiden in the 47 tooling as well.

 

It probably IS fair to say is AS can operate at a particular cost base, why can't Bachmann Branchline? But then again their strucutures are different - Bachmann is tied to Kader's factories (except for EFE rail), and has a much larger reserach, development and marketing staff than AS does (EDIT - I realise this is basically repeating your point about market life cycle). Accurascale engages directly with manufacturers in China who have to be competative in prices they offer for work. I guess the question is it right that the modeller is paying for the incrased size and bureaucracy of Bachmann Branchline? Also as Accurascale grows its range and business, will costs rise to support that size (i.e. the opposite of economies of scale!).

This is the nub of the question, but Sam doesn't seem to be approaching it in a mature analytical way, he just criticises.

 

Haha re the Sound Deluxe model - of course he fails to appreciate that profits need to be made on extra details, and that chip manufacturers and model manufacturers also need to recoup design costs for both the hardware and sound files. Also the number of chips that fail QC or testing, or are damaged in manufacture all have to be paid for. The cost of manufacture of a single sound chip is a small proportion of the final sale price. This is something else where he is very naive.

Edited September 6, 2021 by G-BOAF

[TomScrut]

50 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

I guess re AS 37 I was thinking that it probably isn't quite as comprehenisve in variations compared to the Bachmann 47. The 37/4s are only late life and don't cover original refurb locos (for example). I believe there are other gaps that AS have indicated they will fill, but are not currently on the horizon. Bachmann presumably also have a 57 hiden in the 47 tooling as well.

 

There are quite a lot of variations, enough to say that I don't know what would be more without lists of both TBH! But here isn't the place to go into it I don't think. I believe it is covered pretty comprehensively on the AS 37 thread.

 

50 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

It probably IS fair to say is AS can operate at a particular cost base, why can't Bachmann Branchline? But then again their strucutures are different - Bachmann is tied to Kader's factories (except for EFE rail), and has a much larger reserach, development and marketing staff than AS does. Accurascale engages directly with manufacturers in China who have to be competative in prices they offer for work. I guess the question is it right that the modeller is paying for the incrased size and bureaucracy of Bachmann Branchline? Also as Accurascale grows its range and business, will costs rise to support that size (i.e. the opposite of economies of scale!).

 

Exactly, and time will tell really if there is a wrong way about it. I expect I spend more money with AS at the moment (and I am an infinitesimal part of the market) but that is hard to say really as I have no idea what Bachmann will do in the timescale some of my AS pre orders are on!

 

50 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

This is the nub of the question, but Sam doesn't seem to be approaching it in a mature analytical way, he just criticises.

 

50 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

This is something else where he is very naive.

 

Yes, there doesn't seem to be much reasoning behind it, and your point below is exactly it I think.

 

50 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

of course he fails to appreciate that profits need to be made on extra details, and that chip manufacturers and model manufacturers also need to recoup design costs for both the hardware and sound files. Also the number of chips that fail QC or testing, or are damaged in manufacture all have to be paid for. The cost of manufacture of a single sound chip is a small proportion of the final sale price.

 

Yes, in the same way the £1m of the tooling for this is being paid for one way or another.

Edited September 6, 2021 by TomScrut

[brushman47544]

51 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

This is something else where he is very naive.

 

Is he? If his You Tube channel is a major source of his income, he will want to play to his subscribers or they may go away. As long as advertisers don't think his comments mean fewer sales / lost income for them, he may at least in some part be saying what they expect to hear.

 

I steer clear of all the internet reviewers and stick to reviews in magazines and/or "magazine" people with long experience and a trusted history in the industry.

[Legend]

2 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

 

I guess re AS 37 I was thinking that it probably isn't quite as comprehenisve in variations compared to the Bachmann 47. The 37/4s are only late life and don't cover original refurb locos (for example). I believe there are other gaps that AS have indicated they will fill, but are not currently on the horizon. Bachmann presumably also have a 57 hiden in the 47 tooling as well.

 

It probably IS fair to say is AS can operate at a particular cost base, why can't Bachmann Branchline? But then again their strucutures are different - Bachmann is tied to Kader's factories (except for EFE rail), and has a much larger reserach, development and marketing staff than AS does (EDIT - I realise this is basically repeating your point about market life cycle). Accurascale engages directly with manufacturers in China who have to be competative in prices they offer for work. I guess the question is it right that the modeller is paying for the incrased size and bureaucracy of Bachmann Branchline? Also as Accurascale grows its range and business, will costs rise to support that size (i.e. the opposite of economies of scale!).

This is the nub of the question, but Sam doesn't seem to be approaching it in a mature analytical way, he just criticises.

 

Haha re the Sound Deluxe model - of course he fails to appreciate that profits need to be made on extra details, and that chip manufacturers and model manufacturers also need to recoup design costs for both the hardware and sound files. Also the number of chips that fail QC or testing, or are damaged in manufacture all have to be paid for. The cost of manufacture of a single sound chip is a small proportion of the final sale price. This is something else where he is very naive.

 

Hes already covered it in his August News segment .  He is quite effusive about it  pointing out twin speakers , detailed chassis , high spec motor, painted cab interiors . His only gripe is you have to go for top version to get Gold winsdcreens and rotating fans , but pointing out you get all of this for the retailers ptrice of £316, so while it might be more expensive  it could be worth it .

 

So being a bit unfair stating that he just criticises .   I must admit I view Sam as a blast of fresh air, particularly on Quality and Pricing  . As to anti Bachmann bias, well the Midland 1P is currently his top loco for 2021 and I think theres a fair smattering of Bachmann locos in his top 10. So again unfounded 

[G-BOAF]

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Yes, in the same way the £1m of the tooling for this is being paid for one way or another.

Assuming Bachmann's 'profit' on each model sold is around £70 (I'm  basing this on an ex-VAT retailer markup of around 40%, and assuming a c.30% wholesale cost of manufacture), Bachmann will have to shift around 14000 class 47s before making any profit on tooling cost alone (if we assume tooling costs exclude the office-based research element). I'm calculating based on non-sound fitted models here (so ignoring extra margins and profit on sound-fitted models)

[TomScrut]

5 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Assuming Bachmann's 'profit' on each model sold is around £70 (I'm  basing this on an ex-VAT retailer markup of around 40%, and assuming a c.30% wholesale cost of manufacture), Bachmann will have to shift around 14000 class 47s before making any profit on tooling cost alone (if we assume tooling costs exclude the office-based research element). I'm calculating based on non-sound fitted models here (so ignoring extra margins and profit on sound-fitted models)

 

It would be interesting to know how many they have made in this run! Limited editions are normally 500 but that to me means they must make 1000 or more for non limited runs. Having said that, Limited Editions do tend to hang around sometimes. 

[rob D2]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 

Hes already covered it in his August News segment .  He is quite effusive about it  pointing out twin speakers , detailed chassis , high spec motor, painted cab interiors . His only gripe is you have to go for top version to get Gold winsdcreens and rotating fans , but pointing out you get all of this for the retailers ptrice of £316, so while it might be more expensive  it could be worth it .

 

So being a bit unfair stating that he just criticises .   I must admit I view Sam as a blast of fresh air, particularly on Quality and Pricing  . As to anti Bachmann bias, well the Midland 1P is currently his top loco for 2021 and I think theres a fair smattering of Bachmann locos in his top 10. So again unfounded 

Blast of hot air more like .

[brushman47544]

21 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

Having said that, Limited Editions do tend to hang around sometimes. 

One of the difficulties for retailers with limited editions is reach - knowledge of the retailer by the general buying public. Most will advertise their limited editions but will still rely on regular customers buying them. Kernow MRC commissioned a LE 47712 Lady Diana Spenser in Scotrail livery but cancelled it when others in the same livery appeared in the same Bachmann production batch. 47712 became a regional rep edition and as far as I’m aware sold out quite quickly as a result.

[Monkersson]

34 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

It would be interesting to know how many they have made in this run! Limited editions are normally 500 but that to me means they must make 1000 or more for non limited runs. Having said that, Limited Editions do tend to hang around sometimes. 

Im sure I read that a standard run is 504 units, though Im not sure if that is across each manufacturer

[Monkersson]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

 

 I must admit I view Sam as a blast of fresh air, particularly on Quality and Pricing  . 

Being someone who has 'experienced' Sam in person, I never want to meet him again.

[TomScrut]

3 minutes ago, Monkersson said:

Im sure I read that a standard run is 504 units, though Im not sure if that is across each manufacturer

 

Bachmann do 504 I think (but sometimes there is only 500 sold IIRC), but whether a standard run is the same size as the limited edition I have no idea.

 

Hornby do 500s and 1000 (and 3500 in one case) sized limited editions.

Edited September 6, 2021 by TomScrut

[Gilbert]

16 minutes ago, Monkersson said:

Being someone who has 'experienced' Sam in person, I never want to meet him again.

I've just watched his box opening of an airbrush kit. If anyone has contact with him they need to tell him to get an extractor or good face mask suitable for fine particles etc. Acrylics are just as bad as enamels in that respect. He was spraying into a cardboard box indoors with no apparent ventilation and no understanding of the risks. I'm not a Youtuber so could not leave a comment on the page but a lot of people seemed to think he'd done a jolly good demo......

Edited September 6, 2021 by Gilbert

[G-BOAF]

29 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

One of the difficulties for retailers with limited editions is reach - knowledge of the retailer by the general buying public. Most will advertise their limited editions but will still rely on regular customers buying them. Kernow MRC commissioned a LE 47712 Lady Diana Spenser in Scotrail livery but cancelled it when others in the same livery appeared in the same Bachmann production batch. 47712 became a regional rep edition and as far as I’m aware sold out quite quickly as a result.

 

I'm still waiting for the Kernow limited edition of 47815 in FGW 'Heritage Two-Tone Green'. It was repainted in this livery around 2004 and kept it once it was renamed as Great Western for its subsequent operator, and is still around (albeit in another livery). Kernow announced it in 2007 I think but then cancelled when it became clear that a long-range crewe-cut model would not be on the horizon any time soon.

AFAIK there has not been a 'heritage green' 47/8 produced by Bachmann, either for a retailer or in the main range....

There are a number of locos to choose from, alongside 815, there is 840 in its final run and preservation until recently, and I think one Virgin XC loco with a full yellow end

[Michael Hodgson]

Somebody opening a box is not my idea of a meaningful review of a loco. 

I don't care about the s*dding box, it's  the contents that matter.

Anybody who decides to buy a model depending on the box has only themselves to blame if they've bought a pig in a poke.

[atom3624]

Wow, somebody's lit the blue touchpaper today!!

 

All entitled to opinions and that's what a forum's for, but there's quite an 'energy' in the responses!

 

Entertaining reading I suppose.

 

Personally I look forward to this model coming out.

Not certain I want one enough to purchase one .... yet.

 

Al.

[wombatofludham]

Can we all move on from Sam and his trains?  I get the impression there are people who deliberately watch his output specifically to get annoyed so they can come on here to rant.

I choose not to watch his output despite YouTube constantly suggesting it as something of interest, as I'm not particularly interested in that sort of thing.  Unless you have someone holding a gun to your head to watch his channel, you could always switch off.  It's an option, I just put it out there.

Back to the 47 - I must admit to being a bit surprised just how quickly the de-luxe models, the most expensive of the three tiers, are selling out.  I wonder how this might influence the future direction of Bachmann products?

[Class 158 productions]

8 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Maybe because it’s the least numerous? Shops may only order a few. Also because Bachmann have put the ‘gimmicks’ on that one, people will be more drawn to that as it looks like a more significant upgrade than an older one. Or the market for high quality and expensive diesels is alive and well. I did note in the Bachmann 47 video, that they said if the features like the glazing were popular they might add them to other levels. I think it’s a sensible idea as many don’t know what the gold will look like in person.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Class 158 productions

[rob D2]

I haven’t read about the windscreen , what’s the USP ?

[TomScrut]

16 minutes ago, Class 158 productions said:

Maybe because it’s the least numerous? Shops may only order a few. Also because Bachmann have put the ‘gimmicks’ on that one, people will be more drawn to that as it looks like a more significant upgrade than an older one. Or the market for high quality and expensive diesels is alive and well. I did note in the Bachmann 47 video, that they said if the features like the glazing were popular they might add them to other levels. I think it’s a sensible idea as many don’t know what the gold will look like in person.

 

Yeah, I expect that they are dipping their toes and the batch size will be sized accordingly.