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Bachmann announce NEW Class 47


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57 minutes ago, lyneux said:

Ok, this is a preserved line but illustrates my point well: headlight and taillights all on at the same time.

 

Guy

O

Is that not running around its train? The driver leaning out of the cab maybe suggests so.

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13 minutes ago, IRC said:

Is that not running around its train? The driver leaning out of the cab maybe suggests so.

 

It is backing on to the train, yes. Is this the correct light pattern for that move... I've no idea. How many modellers would replicate this light pattern when doing such a move, probably none.

 

Guy

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57 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

Probably dpends upon when it was withdrawn from service. IIRC locos now have to display both tail-lights and as, in most cases, it is only a switch change in both cabs, some were modified. 
 

Roy

Basically I think the driver hasn't swapped the lights round - one off , one on .

 

im sure the rule book wouldn't allow both head and tail lamps to be lit at the same time ?

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:offtopic:

 

OT, and possibly really needs to be in a topic of its own, but are sound decoders using individual function pins for triggering individual sounds? If so, surely there must be a better way of getting the individual sounds to trigger without using a pin for each sound...?

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11 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

And therein lies the problem for a manufacturer - everybody wants different. A few years from now it will not be a problem, the number of output functions seems to be forever increasing on DCC, time will some when there is enough for everyone's wishes. Which of course, means we will probably need more than F0-F28 to support them!


Roy

It isn’t necessary to have a separate function. One tail light lit or two can be controlled by a switch on the loco. People are not likely to want remote control for switching from one to the other.

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1 hour ago, Ian J. said:

:offtopic:

 

OT, and possibly really needs to be in a topic of its own, but are sound decoders using individual function pins for triggering individual sounds? If so, surely there must be a better way of getting the individual sounds to trigger without using a pin for each sound...?

 

No, sound decoders only use a pair of pins to drive the speaker outputs so all individual sounds go down the same pins to be produced at the speakers.

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3 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

Some manufacturers are doing a good job of progressing this level of realism, but it takes time and needs the support of the DCC chip providers as well.

 

 

Corrected that for you :D

 

(No longer replying directly to you Roy) ,the thing that is worth considering is that function output and function trigger (i.e. the F buttons on the controller) counts aren't necessarily related.

 

The main example is sound where you use loads of F keys and no function outputs, but once all the lighting on the loco can be controlled independently it is not necessarily the best way to operate having 1 button for each function, whilst that is ultimately the most precise control it is not always practical nor convenient.

 

For example on most of my multi functional locos, I have one function for lights, which brings on directional markers and rears. One function for headlights (also directional). One function to swap day/night. 2 functions to switch the ends off for when pulling trains.

 

That is 5 functions which control 8 outputs on the decoder.

 

A feature that may be of appeal to those with sound models of these (I assume these have LS5s in) is that the ESU decoders will allow the cab lights to be switched off automatically when the loco is in motion, I have this on anything I have with a cab light whereby if the function is only active when the loco is stationary. On my Hattons 66s, I have them set independently and so only the forward cab will switch off when moving.

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4 hours ago, lyneux said:

Ok, this is a preserved line but illustrates my point well: headlight and taillights all on at the same time.

 

Guy

68CC14FB-D087-481A-9A30-05C0EDFD66B9.jpeg

The rulebook (module TW1) says red and white lights should be displayed if possible when shunting. Though I'd expect the headcode box to be lit if that was the intention.

Most locos the switches are all in the cab closest to the lights they control, however in the 59s the tail light switch puts the lights on the opposite end, more like the tail lights in a car. Seen this confuse drivers several times, with either reds against a train or on the front unintended. The 59/0s still have independently switched tail lamps, from when the rules only required one, but they run with both lit when light loco.

 

Anyway, back to the Brushes.

 

Jo

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3 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Corrected that for you :D

 

(No longer replying directly to you Roy) ,the thing that is worth considering is that function output and function trigger (i.e. the F buttons on the controller) counts aren't necessarily related.

 

The main example is sound where you use loads of F keys and no function outputs, but once all the lighting on the loco can be controlled independently it is not necessarily the best way to operate having 1 button for each function, whilst that is ultimately the most precise control it is not always practical nor convenient.

 

For example on most of my multi functional locos, I have one function for lights, which brings on directional markers and rears. One function for headlights (also directional). One function to swap day/night. 2 functions to switch the ends off for when pulling trains.

 

That is 5 functions which control 8 outputs on the decoder.

 

A feature that may be of appeal to those with sound models of these (I assume these have LS5s in) is that the ESU decoders will allow the cab lights to be switched off automatically when the loco is in motion, I have this on anything I have with a cab light whereby if the function is only active when the loco is stationary. On my Hattons 66s, I have them set independently and so only the forward cab will switch off when moving.

 

Whilst true, if you look at the number of sounds that some decoders files now have, we are heading towards needing more than F0-F28. For example, the SLW Class 24 uses every F key and is set up pretty much as you describe above, to make taillights switchable on DCC would mean dropping an F key (or two) from sound slots.

 

I too have multiple lights controlled from less F keys, but there is a limit to what you can achieve. The primary constraint today though, is the number of powered outputs.

Roy

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13 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Whilst true, if you look at the number of sounds that some decoders files now have, we are heading towards needing more than F0-F28. For example, the SLW Class 24 uses every F key and is set up pretty much as you describe above, to make taillights switchable on DCC would mean dropping an F key (or two) from sound slots.

 

I too have multiple lights controlled from less F keys, but there is a limit to what you can achieve. The primary constraint today though, is the number of powered outputs.

Roy

 

Exactly, what I was getting at was more that some people seem to think F key = output.

 

Completely agree on the output count being the main issue at the moment. For starters if we get to over 28 functions on sound, most people won't care about most of them anyway.

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1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

 

Exactly, what I was getting at was more that some people seem to think F key = output.

 

Completely agree on the output count being the main issue at the moment. For starters if we get to over 28 functions on sound, most people won't care about most of them anyway.


I quite agree. Whilst it’s nice to be able to sample and play about with the different sounds and functions, the only ones I regularly use are lights on/off, engine start/shutdown and horn(s), drivelock and flange squeal (until it becomes too annoying!). 
 

Its too much of a faff having to refer to a list of function numbers every time you swap to another loco as Bachmann and others don’t always use the same F numbers as each other. Now that models are being produced with some class or manufacturer unique features, one class is not necessarily going to have the same type or number of functions as another.

 

Once you have to use a shift key to get an F10- or F20-something function way down the list it becomes far too much trouble.

 

The automatic sounds included on some sound profiles like cooling fans and pumps are great though.

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25 minutes ago, norfolkchinaclay said:


I quite agree. Whilst it’s nice to be able to sample and play about with the different sounds and functions, the only ones I regularly use are lights on/off, engine start/shutdown and horn(s), drivelock and flange squeal (until it becomes too annoying!). 
 

Its too much of a faff having to refer to a list of function numbers every time you swap to another loco as Bachmann and others don’t always use the same F numbers as each other. Now that models are being produced with some class or manufacturer unique features, one class is not necessarily going to have the same type or number of functions as another.

 

Once you have to use a shift key to get an F10- or F20-something function way down the list it becomes far too much trouble.

 

The automatic sounds included on some sound profiles like cooling fans and pumps are great though.

 

Just use a DCC system that uses labels rather than F numbers?


Roy

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2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Exactly, what I was getting at was more that some people seem to think F key = output.

 

Completely agree on the output count being the main issue at the moment. For starters if we get to over 28 functions on sound, most people won't care about most of them anyway.


You can’t please all the people all the time I know but I would rather drop the “door shut” and “operate light switch” type sounds for functions related to the movement and lighting of the locomotive and/or train.

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2 minutes ago, norfolkchinaclay said:


You can’t please all the people all the time I know but I would rather drop the “door shut” and “operate light switch” type sounds for functions related to the movement and lighting of the locomotive and/or train.

 

Exactly. Sound wise I am mostly interested in engine, horn(s), drive lock. Compressor etc. I prefer to come on randomly. I can in fact though program horns/brake squeal and the like to locations on the layout but they don't matter what number they are.

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15 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Exactly. Sound wise I am mostly interested in engine, horn(s), drive lock. Compressor etc. I prefer to come on randomly. I can in fact though program horns/brake squeal and the like to locations on the layout but they don't matter what number they are.

 

I think the big difference in wants depends on whether people have a layout on which to run trains or a TMD / yard based layout. Personally I prefer the latter as I think you can have more operational interest, hence my liking of cab lights, engine room lights etc. Those such as yourself who run trains prefer the functions you list.

 

Roy

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I'm with Roy on this.

 

Sound projects need to include options for all types of users. If you don't need door slams, don't use that feature. But we should not restrict the options for someone else for whom the sound is an integral part of 'getting into' a loco and driving it.

 

As far as I can tell, all the important functions and main sounds like engine, brakes compressors and fans are included in most sound projects, other lesser or niche features and sounds are only then added subject to the amount of unused memory remaining and the number of F keys unused.

 

There are quite a few projects extant for ESU and ZIMO decoders which already have multiple features* operated by a single F key. In these, the actual total of sounds/functions exceeds the number of physical F keys so that's not always a hard and fast limit. Rarely will the decoder or sound project restrict what can be achieved.

 

*Usually, some other function or characteristic will automatically make the selection.

 

I would be very surprised if any sound project creator would include what some may see as gimmicky features in preference to the essential components. But, although decoders are capable of much more in the way of lighting control than is usually presented, they are restricted to what the basic model design allows. It's also important to remember that the models' design must first and foremost operate satisfactorilly on analogue DC, so this is the base from which all is built.

 

Creative DIY and after market solutions are available for those who wish to expand this, but usually this requires modification or replacement of the original PCBs.

 

The number of such modified models probably indicates the degree of 'user dissatisfaction' with what the manufacturers provide.

 

e.g. if you only wish for one Illuminated tail lamp on your SLW Class 24, slip a bit of opaque material inside the body to cover the 'not to be operated' LED. This simple solution is far easier than it would be to add a 'missing' LED for running in the more modern era.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

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33 minutes ago, pauliebanger said:

I'm with Roy on this.

 

Sound projects need to include options for all types of users. If you don't need door slams, don't use that feature.

 

I wasn't saying don't include them, but the thing is if we are limited to 28 function buttons then there is only so far they can go, especially with lighting getting more complex. Even if the sounds get put on the chip but no function mapped it's there if somebody wants to remap.

 

As an example, a Bachmann 66 has 3 lighting outputs controlled by f0 and another function. That would leave 26 free for sounds. A Hattons 66 has 10 lighting functions (none of which anyone can really say are gimmicky IMO, markers, rears, day and night headlights and cab) which would be controlled by up to 10 buttons depending on how you set them up. That means you lose 8.

 

I would humbly suggest prototypically correct lighting would add realism in almost every layout beyond coupling sounds and door slams.

 

47 minutes ago, pauliebanger said:

*Usually, some other function or characteristic will automatically make the selection.

 

Exactly, such as my lighting example earlier in the thread where conditions can stipulate what is on rather than just manually controlling everything.

 

 

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I was refering to gimmicky sounds, not essential functions, so there's no difference between us on this.

 

However, depending upon whether the manufacturer provides physically separate wiring to each LED which needs to be separately controlled, assigning functions to F keys is just a question of mapping.

 

If sounds are excluded from projects, it's currently impossible for any to be added by end users without a complete reblow.

 

So, looking from someone elses perspective, it might be preferable to have sounds loaded and assigned for use 'out of the box'. Those who require accesss to alternative lighting arrays can easilly fix that with a bit of programming.

 

Some sound projects are in circulation where there are sounds loaded to the decoder but not assigned/used in the 'default' sound project.

 

e.g. My Class 08 for ZIMO and Legomanbiffo's Class 08 each have the option to select between wooden or metal doors, and choice of whistle or horn.

 

There are much more economical ways to assign lighting functions to models than using one F key for each LED in an array. Subject to the model's wiring arrangements, it would be possible to arrange control of all 10 functions on the Hatton's Class 66 in any possible prototypical array using a single F key plus a single CV change. Granted that this may not be quite as convenient as having individual F keys, but it 'saves' 9 keys for other uses -  maybe something others would prefer - and ensures that the correct lamps are illuminated. (user does not forget to switch one or other on or off).

 

Whether prototypical lighting is more likely to add more realism than prototypical sounds will depend on an individual's point of view and the era modelled. In green diesel days, tail lighting was provided by oil lamps fitted to the lamp brackets (usually depicted on the models). The body mounted electric red lights were not to be used.

 

Until comparatively recently, any lighting was used only in the case of poor visibility - fog,  driving rain or snow, darkness . How many layouts representing earlier times are operated with the prototypical environmental conditions where the use of lights at all would be prototypical?  I've no idea nor any evidence to support any assertion, so I will not do so.

 

Turning cab lights on or off automatically is neat trick, available on ESU and ZIMO decoders, but it's not prototypical - it's modellers' licence for convenience. Whilst it's true that the forward cab light would not normally be illuminated when moving, in reality it would more often be extinguished well before the loco is moved, to allow the driver's eyes to adjust. Also, they were quite often left switched on when moving about on shed.

 

On the other hand unless there's a particular need, the cab light would not be switched on each time the loco comes to a halt, for the same 'night vision' reasons. So, whilst a useful trick on a model, it's hard to see how this could be described as 'realistic'.

 

Point is - there are lots of different viewpoints. Manufacturers take account of as many as possible for the model to be successful, but there's probably always going to be room for optimisation for individual users' needs.

 

Fortunately, in a model world where most are happy to ignore the incorrectly sized and spaced sleepers holding rails of incorrect profile and height to form track far too narrow to be realistic, there's room for all viewpoints. LOL

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

 

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On 21/10/2021 at 19:45, rob D2 said:

Looking forward to someone getting their mitts on one and telling us as it is 


Excellent point. And preferably buyers  who operate DCC and separately those onDC only.Reading this thread I think I can be forgiven for asking whether or not there are any of the latter sort on this forum?  So if there are like me dinosaurs of that kind asking themselves whether or not a £200+ investment on one of these is worthwhile when they cannot avail themselves of the magic of light and ( possibly) sound please let us have your thoughts.

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2 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:


Excellent point. And preferably buyers  who operate DCC and separately those onDC only.Reading this thread I think I can be forgiven for asking whether or not there are any of the latter sort on this forum?  So if there are like me dinosaurs of that kind asking themselves whether or not a £200+ investment on one of these is worthwhile when they cannot avail themselves of the magic of light and ( possibly) sound please let us have your thoughts.

I run on DC and have 2 on order, with a fleet of 11 old Bachmann ones and a few Heljan, I will be really looking to scrutinise these and seeing if they are worth it. Especially if you don’t get any of the ‘gimmicks’ and just a new 47 with normal glazing. 

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2 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:


Excellent point. And preferably buyers  who operate DCC and separately those onDC only.Reading this thread I think I can be forgiven for asking whether or not there are any of the latter sort on this forum?  So if there are like me dinosaurs of that kind asking themselves whether or not a £200+ investment on one of these is worthwhile when they cannot avail themselves of the magic of light and ( possibly) sound please let us have your thoughts.

 

DC only, no decoder, model will operate as you can expect on DC, plus some lighting will be functional of which some may be switched off manually with hardware micro switches. No sound other than that generated by the model and its movement.

 

DCC non-sound decoder fitted, as above when running on DC (controlling voltages similar to that of sound decoders listed below) when on DCC additional functionality wil be available, such as manual braking (if included and activated) control of fans and so on.

 

DCC sound decoder fitted:

 

On DCC, the full DCC sound experience.

 

I can't advise on this particular model's DC abiities, but since Bachmann now promote their models as 'sound fitted' instead of 'DCC sound' there will be as much functionality as possible made available to DC users.

 

In general, you can expect as you gently increase voltage to get some lighting as standard (around 3-4V), some of which may be able to be switched off with hardware micro switches, followed by engine start-up, (circa 5v) the motor will not be energised at this point, so the engine sound will be at idle.

 

Further increase in volts will cause the engine sound to ramp up and the model to move. The project may be set up to allow some other sounds (brake release, start horn) to play before the loco moves (so called start delay). After this the model will move and the engine sound swill transition up or down according to the project settings. Reduce volts to slow the model and the engine sounds will spool down. the movement and sounds and lights on thresholds will be at different (lower) voltage thresholds so it should be possible to reduce road speed to zero (volts around 5v) and have the loco standing with engine idling again.

 

In addition, there will be automatically generated sounds - brake release sounds and brake squeal. There may also be some Randomy Generated sounds, compressor, fans (which may also trigger the fans to operate simultaneously) exhauster and maybe others.

 

What you will not be able to control is any feature or sound which requires manual input, for the pretty obvious reason that on DC there's normally no access to operating buttons to do so.

 

Whilst there will not be the full 'DCC experience' you will be likely to hear a large proportion of the sounds and the starting and slow speed contol will be as good as the corresponding DCC control.

 

You'll need to make your own mind up regarding the relative values of each of the above options.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

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59 minutes ago, pauliebanger said:

 

DC only, no decoder, model will operate as you can expect on DC, plus some lighting will be functional of which some may be switched off manually with hardware micro switches. No sound other than that generated by the model and its movement.

 

DCC non-sound decoder fitted, as above when running on DC (controlling voltages similar to that of sound decoders listed below) when on DCC additional functionality wil be available, such as manual braking (if included and activated) control of fans and so on.

 

DCC sound decoder fitted:

 

On DCC, the full DCC sound experience.

 

I can't advise on this particular model's DC abiities, but since Bachmann now promote their models as 'sound fitted' instead of 'DCC sound' there will be as much functionality as possible made available to DC users.

 

In general, you can expect as you gently increase voltage to get some lighting as standard (around 3-4V), some of which may be able to be switched off with hardware micro switches, followed by engine start-up, (circa 5v) the motor will not be energised at this point, so the engine sound will be at idle.

 

Further increase in volts will cause the engine sound to ramp up and the model to move. The project may be set up to allow some other sounds (brake release, start horn) to play before the loco moves (so called start delay). After this the model will move and the engine sound swill transition up or down according to the project settings. Reduce volts to slow the model and the engine sounds will spool down. the movement and sounds and lights on thresholds will be at different (lower) voltage thresholds so it should be possible to reduce road speed to zero (volts around 5v) and have the loco standing with engine idling again.

 

In addition, there will be automatically generated sounds - brake release sounds and brake squeal. There may also be some Randomy Generated sounds, compressor, fans (which may also trigger the fans to operate simultaneously) exhauster and maybe others.

 

What you will not be able to control is any feature or sound which requires manual input, for the pretty obvious reason that on DC there's normally no access to operating buttons to do so.

 

Whilst there will not be the full 'DCC experience' you will be likely to hear a large proportion of the sounds and the starting and slow speed contol will be as good as the corresponding DCC control.

 

You'll need to make your own mind up regarding the relative values of each of the above options.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul


Thanks Paul but I have a DC layout and will obviously be uninterested in what this model is capable of on DCC.Thus I will be looking at a “DCC ready “ version. The point of my post is basically to enquire whether or not the increase in capital expenditure on this “upgrade “ can be justified in terms of performance and accuracy both dimensionally and cosmetically. But not what it can do with a decoder. 

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I am committed to DC for several reason, mostly cost, but also because at my time of life I really can't be *rsed with the learning curve.  I am content with the current situation in which locomotives are offered in DC as 'DCC ready', i.e. with a circuit board ready to accept a plug in DCC chip but no other circuitry or electronic jiggerypokery, and more expensive DCC/'Sound Fitted' alternatives.  My most recent purchase, the famous Bachmann 94xx, is 'DCC ready', but has a firebox glow which I was interested to see how I'd react to.  Part of my was of the view that it was a pointless gimmick and another part of me was sort of, yeah, why not?

 

On the DCC version of the loco, this firebox glow can be made to do all sorts of tricks or be switched off altogether, including IIRC shining in conjuntion with the noise of the firehole door being opened and shut and the fireman's shovel scraping on things, which I think is a little gimmicky but then, yeah, why not?  My 94xx's firebox glows according to the load on the motor, not the voltage supply, and in fact serves a function as an ampereage monitor for me.  I have accepted in in use, though if I hadn't removing it's feed wires would not have been the most difficult job possible, but do not miss it's presence on other locos. 

 

One man's gimmick is another's detail and extra level of realism, and I have no problems with such bells and whistles if they are correctly applied.  Whether they  are worth the extra expense is something that can only be answered on an individual basis.  I would not be interested for example in crew voices, them saying the same things over and over in an accent inappropriate to my location would be annoying, but working windscreen wipers would, I reckon, improve the impression of a loco working in bad weather.

 

I have coach lighting operated by magnetic reed switches from batteries aboard the coaches and am working on/experimenting/messing around with working removable steam loco oil lamps, as the DCC system will not do for a terminus layout where lamps have to be changed for the return journey.  I am considering adding ambient noise; rain, sheep bleating, babbling brook, and possibly whistles and other railway ambient.  This, if I progress with it, will be delivered through hifi bluetooth headphones; I cannot be *rsed with silly little speakers incapable of bass response.

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