LMS Semaphores

[PatriotClass]

Hello Guys,

 

I am just working on a 3D print of LMS home signal semaphores (00 gauge) with servo drive. Just waiting for the print, I surfed a little bit around and found the picture below.

I thought LMS semaphores use upper quadrant, don't they?

Or were they different from region to region, especially on former LNWR network?

 

 

[LMS2968]

Signals had a long life. That drawing does state LNWR, and that's what they are, complete with the thick, tapering, wooden post, the arms with upper and lower swages for rigidity and the circles to signify Slow or Goods lines.

[Compound2632]

The characteristic upper quadrant tubular post signals didn't really become very common until very late in LMS days and LMR days. The appearance of the LMS in the 30s was still largely that the pre-grouping companies, with a thin veneer of modernity. The LMS only really looked like what you think the LMS looked like in BR days!

 

If you consider that most rolling stock and infrastructure had a life expectance of 30+ years, it's hardly surprising.

[uax6]

There is a book on LMS signalling that gives you the original diagrams of the standard types of signals, complete with dimensions. Can't remember the full title, but it is very obvious which one it is! Red cover on mine, which is a modern reprint. 

 

Andy G

[br2975]

For LNWR & LMS signals, start here.........................

.

For information, drawings etc the Jack Nelson book is still probably the best book in my library, and I'm not a devotee of the Premier Line.

.

Brian R

Edited August 4, 2021 by br2975

[uax6]

The top one was the one I was thinking of....

Andy G

[tynewydd]

Some LNWR kit survived a lot longer than 30 years. There was a working ex-LNWR LQ starting signal beyond the end of a platform at Holyhead well into the 1980s. It was specially sized arm (short), which gave enough clearance for the train on the adjacent line to go past it when it was on. Probably closer to 100 years service in that case. Holyhead had LQ, UQ and Color Light all at the same time. 

[Compound2632]

There is a book dedicated to the subject of LNWR signalling - I don't have a copy: R.D. Foster, London & North Western Railway Signalling (OPC, 1982). 

 

The photo on the front cover of L.G. Warburton's book shows a typical LMS installation using a hybrid mix of lattice post, LNWR bracket, landing, and doll components, with (vividly colourised) LMS upper quadrant arms.

[beast66606]

21 hours ago, tynewydd said:

Some LNWR kit survived a lot longer than 30 years. There was a working ex-LNWR LQ starting signal beyond the end of a platform at Holyhead well into the 1980s. It was specially sized arm (short), which gave enough clearance for the train on the adjacent line to go past it when it was on. Probably closer to 100 years service in that case. Holyhead had LQ, UQ and Color Light all at the same time. 

 

Triggers broom signal I believe, the parts had been replaced several times over the years.

 

LNWR signals, more or less vanished by the late 1970s when the WCML power boxes displaced plenty of good condition tubular steel posted signals which were then available to replaced those that remained. Chester was - I think - the last main station to have  LNWR signals and the last went in 1977.

Some ground signals at various locations survived a little longer, Harrow had the last LNWR shunt signal which went in 1988

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by beast66606
corrected Harrow date.

[PatriotClass]

Great information. I just caught Mr Warburton's book on the web.

So I can fit my mainline with some more modern round post upper quadrant signals and decorate the coal branch with some rusty lower quadrant LNWR types. Its also nice to see on this old picture, that lower quadrant signals due to their balance weight don't fall in "track free" position, even when the control wire breaks.

 

 

 

[beast66606]

2 hours ago, PatriotClass said:

Great information. I just caught Mr Warburton's book on the web.

So I can fit my mainline with some more modern round post upper quadrant signals and decorate the coal branch with some rusty lower quadrant LNWR types. Its also nice to see on this old picture, that lower quadrant signals due to their balance weight don't fall in "track free" position, even when the control wire breaks.

 

 

 

 

Don't forget the hybrids, LNWR posts, upper quadrant arms - a corrugated variety existed too - and the ladder refitted to the rear of the post (LNWR mounted them on the front) - (there were) lots of permutations out there.

[beast66606]

2 hours ago, PatriotClass said:

 decorate the coal branch with some rusty lower quadrant LNWR types.

 

Here's two at Ellesmere Port (No.2) - the near one with the "loop" arm was off a loop line and the far one (to it's distant left) was off the dock branch - 1977

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by beast66606

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

Here's two at Ellesmere Port (No.2) - the near one with the "loop" arm was off a loop line and the far one (to it's distant left) was off the dock branch - 1977

 

 

Looking at the rail surfaces there, I do wonder when those two were last actually worked for a traffic movement!

[beast66606]

35 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Looking at the rail surfaces there, I do wonder when those two were last actually worked for a traffic movement!

 

Probably about 5-10 years earlier, Ellesmere Port No.1 controlled a direct connection to the yard behind me / train and this was removed ca 1972, I suspect from then the sidings mostly fell into disuse.

[TheSignalEngineer]

13 hours ago, beast66606 said:

Harrow had the last LNWR shunt signal which went in the late 1970s.

December 1988? I think it was the one we took out on the DC Lines Resignalling.

Just in front of the LUL train in this shot, it was worked by lever 4 at Harrow No.2 box.

 

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Thinking back in my railway career we had an LNWR box on the Cannock line where the signals were still virtually as they were at grouping into the 1970s. We had Midland style crossbar stop shunt signals up to the late 1970s and I think the Midland distant on the Redditch branch lasted until the 1980s. At Kingsbury Branch Sidings we had Midland wooden bracket signals to the late 1970s.

[TheSignalEngineer]

20 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

At Kingsbury Branch Sidings we had Midland wooden bracket signals to the late 1970s.

My photo c1976

[TheSignalEngineer]

Is the Midland signal still at Ketton? The Down Starter was still a lower quadrant about 2 years ago.

[beast66606]

46 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Is the Midland signal still at Ketton? The Down Starter was still a lower quadrant about 2 years ago.

 

Yes -and that arm is definitely Triggers Broom.

 

[PatriotClass]

What a beautyfull prototype picture, SignalEngineer! That one comes definitely on my modelling list. Great detail to see the mechanics too.

May I ask, what's the purpose of this lid?

[beast66606]

4 minutes ago, PatriotClass said:

What a beautyfull prototype picture, SignalEngineer! That one comes definitely on my modelling list. Great detail to see the mechanics too.

May I ask, what's the purpose of this lid?

 

It's a back blinder, when the signal is cleared it moves with the arm and obscures a tell tail light on the rear of the signal lamp so the bobby knows the arm has responded to the lever.

Edited August 5, 2021 by beast66606

[TheSignalEngineer]

5 hours ago, beast66606 said:

 

Yes -and that arm is definitely Triggers Broom.

 

I thought so. Not the same as the blade on the distant we had at Redditch before the freights stopped and we put in a sequenced track circuit system for the single line.

[Michael Hodgson]

7 hours ago, beast66606 said:

 

It's a back blinder, when the signal is cleared it moves with the arm and obscures a tell tail light on the rear of the signal lamp so the bobby knows the arm has responded to the lever.

All (or nearly all) companies used them, and of course they are only relevant if the signalman's view is from the back of the signal.  If he can see its face he should look for the colour of the aspect to see that it has correctly returned.  They were generally fitted even if the bobby didn't need them.  If the signal can't be seen seen from the box (curves, bridges etc might make that impossible) he would be provided with an electrical repeater.

[PatriotClass]

The Midland twin signal didn't made it to my modelling list, it took a direct shortcut to realisation.

Many thanks once more to TheSignalEngineer for this inspiring picture. As soon as I am at home from my holidays, I will give it an airbrush and some weathering.

Am I right that the colouring is as usual all over white?

 

See a full description of the model, and a video here at the modelling section!