Peckett saddle tank classes - E vs W5 or W6?

[Mol_PMB]

Can anyone help me by confirming the differences between a Peckett E class and a W5 class, or a W6 class?

 

I've been doing some more research into the local industries served by the Manchester Ship Canal, and their locos and wagons.

The CWS Margarine Works at Higher Irlam was literally a stone's throw from the site of my 'Boysnope Bump' layout, and they had various shunting locos over the life of the factory.

One was a Peckett W5 class 0-4-0ST which was later sold to Falmouth Docks and there are several photos of it here:

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/peckett-sons-works-no-1530-falmouth-docks-engineering-company-no-6-0-4-0st/

(Note: that website is perhaps a little inaccurate, 1530 worked at the Margarine Works while several other Pecketts were at the nearby Soap Works)

Here is Peckett 1530 not long after arriving at Falmouth, still in basically the condition it ran in at Higher Irlam, links to images on the site above:

And here is the other side, some years later when it had acquired an ugly chimney but seems otherwise the same:

Now, Minerva make a lovely O gauge model of a Peckett E class 0-4-0ST. Comparing pictures of the real W5 and the model of the E, I can see very few differences.

The rivet pattern on the tanks and the smokebox, and the handrail above the smokebox door are different, but those are very minor and easily changed. The smokebox door is higher on the model too.

The buffers appear to be mounted higher on the bufferbeams on the W5, which might indicate that it has smaller wheels?

 

The Manchester Ship Canal Railway itself had a Peckett W6, number 77. Seen here, linked to an image on an ebay listing:

Again, it looks pretty similar at first glance. My impression is that the loco is sitting lower than the E class model, perhaps the wheels are smaller?

The MSC Railways book says that the wheel diameter of No.77 was 3'3" and the wheelbase 5'6". This loco looks altogether a bit shorter than the model, but that might just be a false impression from the angle of the photo.

 

So, what would be the differences between an E and a W5, or indeed a W6?

I haven't been able to find definitive dimensions for an E class online, but maybe someone who has a Minerva model could confirm the wheel diameter, wheelbase and length over bufferbeams?

 

Can I justify a Minerva Peckett as a representation of either of these locos?

 

Cheers,

Mol

[doilum]

I trust you have seen the guide to Pecketts on the Martin Bane website. A Google search for Pecketts locomotives will take you there.

[Mol_PMB]

15 minutes ago, doilum said:

I trust you have seen the guide to Pecketts on the Martin Bane website. A Google search for Pecketts locomotives will take you there.

Many thanks. I had looked at some pages on that site, though now I have looked again it is more comprehensive than I had realised.

However, I have not yet found the answer to my question there. The locomotive catalogue reproduced seems to refer to classes by numbers rather than letters. 

Perhaps I am missing something?

 

regards,

Mol

[doilum]

Sorry I can't help you further. Pecketts were a temporary diversion whilst I was building Ackton Hall no3. After much reading I only ended up realising  how complex the history was and went back to the relative simplicity of the standard Hunslets. Hopefully this will stir one of the real Pecketts cognoscenti into entightening us!

[Mol_PMB]

I've been through the catalogue again and cross-referenced with a list of locos described as E class.

https://www.martynbane.co.uk/peckett/catalogue2018/album/index.html#page72.jpg

https://www.davidlosmith.co.uk/Peckett-E-Class.htm
It appears that Peckett 1464 was an E class; it has 15"x21" cylinders, 3'7" diameter wheels, and a wheelbase of 6'6".

I also found this page, which gives key dimensions for each of the preserved classes, and agrees with the above dimensions for the E class:

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/peckett-sons/

The following key dimensions are given for the W classes:

W4 class are 14"x20", 3'2.5" dia, 5'6" wheelbase

W5 class are 14"x20", 3'2.5" dia, 5'6" wheelbase

W6 class are 14"x22", 3'2.5" dia, 5'6" wheelbase

W7 class are 14"x22", 3'2.5" dia, 5'6" wheelbase

From an article about the locos at CWS Irlam, the cylinder diameter and wheel size are given for classes W4, W5, W7, and the MSC Railways book gives more comprehensive details for their W6.

They agree within half an inch or so within the values above.

 

So it appears that the W classes had a wheelbase a foot shorter than the E, and wheels 4.5" smaller diameter.

This drawing of Peckett 1687 is a W6 class, the dimensions seem to largely agree with the MSC 77 which was also a W6:

https://www.martynbane.co.uk/peckett/drawings/drawings.html

 

What I haven't yet determined is the overall length of an E class. I'm guessing that with a longer wheelbase, the whole loco would have been longer too.

If someone with a Minerva model could measure the length over bufferbeams, that would help me to understand the length discrepancy between the E and the W.

If it's still relatively small, I might be able to overlook it; after all it's very hard to tell the difference between photos of the real thing so it would be the same for a model.

 

Incidentally the CWS Margarine Works Peckett can be seen in use in these two aerial photos; if you log in you can zoom right in and even read the wording on some of the wagons:

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW031040

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW031038

 

Cheers,

Mol

[Marshall5]

Eric Underhill produced an excellent kit for a W6 Peckett many years ago. The range passed to ABS/Zero Zephyrs and after Adrian Swain's death is now sold by CSP https://cspmodels.com/abante/index.php?rt=product/product&path=70&product_id=301

FWIW there was a bit of overlap between the W6 & W7's.  Back in the 80's I owned P1990/40 which was a W6 but had a W7 chimney from new.

Agenoria/Ragstone Models do a kit for a W4 which is probably easier to convert to a W5. 

Cheers,

Ray.

[Ruston]

If you want to model a W5 in 7mm then the best starting point is the Agenoria kit for the W4. It is the later W4 with the top of the buffer beam flush with the top of the running plate, and the later cab, as on the W5. The W4 and W5 shared the same wheelbase, wheel diameter, cylinder dimensions and overall size. The only visual differences are in the shape of the rear of the frames, a different pattern of cab steps, and that the steam dome is set further back on the W5.

 

The W6 has the same wheel dia. etc. but is longer, wider in boiler, tank and cab, and doesn't have smokebox wing plates

 

The E is a different beast altogether. Much larger in every respect.

 

P.S. there may be other visual and technical differences between the W4 and 5, but I still think the Agenoria kit is the best starting point.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Ruston
To add P.S.

[Ruston]

Here's my Agenoria W4.

[03060]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

 

The E is a different beast altogether. Much larger in every respect.

 

 

Not an expert but I agree with Dave very much on this point, I love Pecketts but my idea of one is of a small, characterful loco such as the W4 and decided against the E when Minerva brought it out, which I'm sure is a very fine model but it was definately a much bigger looking loco, possibly more suited to a large colliery at the top of a Welsh valley or suchlike.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[Warspite]

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

What I haven't yet determined is the overall length of an E class. I'm guessing that with a longer wheelbase, the whole loco would have been longer too.

If someone with a Minerva model could measure the length over bufferbeams, that would help me to understand the length discrepancy between the E and the W.

If it's still relatively small, I might be able to overlook it; after all it's very hard to tell the difference between photos of the real thing so it would be the same for a model.

 

If you are still interested in the dimensions of the Minerva Peckett, I've just measured mine:

 

Buffer to buffer: 170mm = 24' 5"

Bufferbeam to bufferbeam: 150mm = 21' 5"

Wheelbase: 45.5mm = 6' 6"

Wheel size: 25mm = 3' 7"

The wheelbase and wheel size match those you quoted for 1464.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Stephen

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks Stephen, that’s really helpful. So the E class is longer overall than the W, but not by much more than the increase in the wheelbase compared to the W varieties. 

However, as 03060 and Ruston note, there are other dimensional differences between the various classes to complicate matters. They may all look the same at first glance but they’re not!

 

Many thanks also to Marshall5 and Ruston for the details of the kits for the W4/5 and W6. They do look very good, rather tempting! 

 

Thanks again to everyone for the information and inspiration!

mol

[Mike 84C]

Hey Mol!, you need no Peckett temptations, there's a takeaway kit of bits down in BL that needs your ministrations. Rather good FRco photies you posted, got a little touch of "de je vue".    

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, Mike 84C said:

Hey Mol!, you need no Peckett temptations, there's a takeaway kit of bits down in BL that needs your ministrations. Rather good FRco photies you posted, got a little touch of "de je vue".    

Very true! One of the reasons for slow progress on the train set is that I’ve been spending so much time at the Chinese Takeaway...