Accurascale hst?

[Henners84]

Bit of a risk (competing with Hornby) but I wonder whether accurascale could pull off an hst? There are plenty of variations which could be modelled very well and current pricing on Hornby models suggests there is plenty of demand. I personally think the Hornby hst lags the market now in its detail and I think the market could benefit from greater supply given the flipper market that has developed on ebay

[Legend]

I think there is scope there . Its Hornbys cash cow way over priced . Accurascale I'm sure could bring it in at better price point .  But would people part with existing HSTs and upgrade?  Its a bit like the new Bachmann 47 . I suspect the old one is good enough for many .

 

How about a 313/314/315/507/508 instead .  Of all manufacturers Accurascale have best chance of releasing this at price point acceptable to us . 

[Henners84]

Do you think there will be a large enough market there? I thought there would be more interest for a class 89 (I really want an 89!) but that seems to be sticking. 

 

Accurascale should be able to compete on price on an hst with Hornby. Although I'm sure Hornby could fight back by reducing their prices to fight back (margin must be very high for Hornby on them). 

 

Would still love to see a quality hst. I'm sure there'll be lots of interest and a number of people do seem to collect more than one. I personally think accurascale are more likely to produce a better quality product than Hornby even if Hornby decide to retool. Then there is the benefit of producing the mk3 coaches that can be sold separately. Even if Oxford could get their colour match more accurate I struggle to see a reason to buy from Oxford even if their detail is better than Hornby. The reason is that I could never run an Oxford mk3 with a Hornby hst power car set because they will not match. Then having loco hauled mk3s from Oxford will not match the mk3s on my hst which will highlight the detail differences between the sets

[atom3624]

I have a Virgin Super Detail 8WD HST and love it - all of the 'goodies' as well - doors, fan, etc - I like that sort of thing.

 

A/S would do a brilliant job and really shake up Hornby in the process.

If we're looking at attacking a 'cash cow', how about doing 'theme and variations' of Flying Scotsman - that would certainly put the cat amongst the pigeons!!

 

Al.

[wombatofludham]

Personally I think Accurascale might see a 31 or a 50 as a better target as the HST would not be worth the effort without a full suite of decent Mk3 coaches, and whilst the TSO/TFO share a common bodyshell, and the TGS would need a second set of tools, the multitude of variations in the catering cars plus interior details would add up to a fair chunk of investment in toolings.  The Hornby HST is a nice model, adapts to DCC sound easily but is let down by the Mk3 stock which is not to the same standard.

That said, they are iconic and have carried a huge range of colour schemes.

[frobisher]

An HST opens so many cans of worms though.

 

Putting to one side that Hornby are clearly looking at retooling their existing HST MK3s in the wake of the "Sliding Door" variants (and the risk of going head to head there), exactly what should AS tool up to start with?

 

Go Classic as introduced? "Just" do the non-CDL versions to start with? "Just" do complete sets?

 

Every time you answer the question a "but" appears...

[frobisher]

6 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

The Hornby HST is a nice model, adapts to DCC sound easily but is let down by the Mk3 stock which is not to the same standard.

 

Hornby might now have the makings of a solution on that front now that they own Oxford outright (they'll need to tool new underframes to sort out "that" issue on the Oxford MK3s as well (though if they were canny, the sliding doors' ones might already be compatible or adaptable) as new roof vent variants for the HST vehicles) and of course put a close coupling mechanism on the power cars...

 

If I were AS, I'd be looking at different opportunities with more managable risk.

[Henners84]

Hadn't realised Hornby had bought Oxford. Agree that there is lots of risk here and the thread is maybe at the aspirational end of what I'd like to see vs what might be the most sensible. I'd certainly welcome an accurascale class 50...

[Islesy]

53 minutes ago, frobisher said:

Putting to one side that Hornby are clearly looking at retooling their existing HST MK3s in the wake of the "Sliding Door" variants

Sorry to burst your bubble there @frobisher, but to date there are absolute no plans at Hornby to update the Mk3 tooling for the HST stock, which is a combination of Lima and Hornby tooling. I did the Mk3SDs as a one off project at Hornby and the original idea was to combine with the Oxford tooling, but within five minutes it was obvious that that couldn't happen, as everything below the body is out of scale and with the wrong angles - they really are woeful (the Oxford measurements were wrongly scaled at 1:76, not 1:76.2, which resulted in some stunning mismatches). The other thing to remember is that although the Mk3SD under frame is absolutely correct, the cabinets would still need to be changed, as there were a number of very specific changes made as part of the Wabtec upgrade.

Plans at H may have changed, and there may be other sharks in the water by now, but the Mk3s are fair game in both HST and locomotive hauled versions in my opinion (and that is my opinion, not an Accurascale statement )

[RozM]

I think A/S producing the iconic HST is most definitely a commercially viable option judging by the way they present their products to market. The number of livery options and varying specifications of the power cars is extremely large, then add in perhaps the iconic Mk3 coaches. I think the Hornby product is ok, but believe A/S could produce the definitive model, if their Deltics, Class 92s and Class 37s are anything to go by.

 

I also agree that the Class 31 and Class 50 locos are potential targets for A/S. Ironically, all three currently produced by Hornby. As Bachmann have just demonstrated with their new Class 47 project, A/S are causing some of these manufacturers to up their game. Great news for us modellers.

 

Fran mentioned back in March they were working on 'more than two new locos' and it sounded like it included another steam loco so hopefully after the Deltics are released we will get some exciting announcement...

[frobisher]

Well I suppose I should have said it gave the clear impression of an attempt to do an end run around at the other HST MK3's at a later date even if that wasn't how it eventually went.

 

 

 

37 minutes ago, Islesy said:

I did the Mk3SDs as a one off project at Hornby and the original idea was to combine with the Oxford tooling, but within five minutes it was obvious that that couldn't happen, as everything below the body is out of scale and with the wrong angles - they really are woeful (the Oxford measurements were wrongly scaled at 1:76, not 1:76.2, which resulted in some stunning mismatches).

 

Eeek! I knew the underframe issues were bad, but not that bad.

 

42 minutes ago, Islesy said:

Plans at H may have changed, and there may be other sharks in the water by now, but the Mk3s are fair game in both HST and locomotive hauled versions in my opinion (and that is my opinion, not an Accurascale statement )

 

 

In light of what you said, the risk vs Hornby is somewhat reduced, though it may be somewhat foolhardy to go in Day 1 with sliding door stock for any other manufacturer.  It would definitely have to be a policy of pick your targets carefully and grow the range off of the initial (hopefully) successes.

 

[IRC]

I think I’d be absolutely flabbergasted if Accurascale chose the HST at this stage of their development, although delighted as well. As a late 80’s modeller who is returning to the hobby after 30+ years sabbatical, trying to get hold of a Swallow (non buffered) or Executive livery one without paying silly money is difficult.

For me, trying to model that time period, there’s one obvious choice; an up to date class 31 is that choice and specifically a bog standard, BR blue, class 31/4, which is conspicuous by its absence.

[Clive Mortimore]

I don't think a diesel is their next model. After doing all the work on the Manor I think they have got bitten by the steam bug and will do a Black Five to replace the ageing Hornby model.

 

Either that or they will take my suggestion from last year of a shunting horse seriously.

                                                       

[atom3624]

A decent Black 5 or 8F would be great.

I still think it would be interesting to see what an A/S FS would be like!

Al.

[E100]

Personally I don't see Accurascale doing a HST just yet. Whilst the Hornby HST power cars are expensive they aren't a bad model per say. It's not exactly a railroad item but stranger things have happened. I think this may be on a long list and wouldn't be surprised if they do it in 5 years if there isn't any sign of Hornby doing it. 

 

It's probably a challenging project on the logistics front from the perspective of getting the right ratio of coaches to power cars. People will only buy one if they can buy the other generally and getting these correct in the right liveries would be really difficult to do IMO such that they don't end up with a load of stock sitting in a shed until they can do the next batch in that livery. The exceptions maybe the Scotrail and GWR castle formations where they could reasonably sell them as sets.

[E100]

8 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

A decent Black 5 or 8F would be great.

I still think it would be interesting to see what an A/S FS would be like!

Al.

Agreed that the Black 5 of 8F should be high on the list.

[G-BOAF]

4 hours ago, Islesy said:

Sorry to burst your bubble there @frobisher, but to date there are absolute no plans at Hornby to update the Mk3 tooling for the HST stock, which is a combination of Lima and Hornby tooling. I did the Mk3SDs as a one off project at Hornby and the original idea was to combine with the Oxford tooling, but within five minutes it was obvious that that couldn't happen, as everything below the body is out of scale and with the wrong angles - they really are woeful (the Oxford measurements were wrongly scaled at 1:76, not 1:76.2, which resulted in some stunning mismatches). The other thing to remember is that although the Mk3SD under frame is absolutely correct, the cabinets would still need to be changed, as there were a number of very specific changes made as part of the Wabtec upgrade.

Plans at H may have changed, and there may be other sharks in the water by now, but the Mk3s are fair game in both HST and locomotive hauled versions in my opinion (and that is my opinion, not an Accurascale statement )

 

Shame to hear the Oxford Mk3s are so out. I thought it was just the skirting.

Was the 'Oxford' Terrier at least 1:76.2?

 

Surely with the Hornby mk3s all that is needed is a slide or new tool for the 'outer side' of chassis to be tooled up with cabinet modifications, and then a new body shell (I'm guessin the SD interiors could be used, disabled toilet aside). Bogies and other elements would also be usable as is. So effecitvely new body shell and half a new chassis tool....

 

Aisde from the Mk3s ,forr me the biggest remaining flaw in the Hornby HSTs is the lack of close coupling on the inner ends of the Power Cars. This is a a must for a corridor connection - I really don't see why this was not done, given that most other Hornby D&E locos (e.g. Class 50 onwards) have this feature, (in many cases without having a corridor or buffing plate to actually require it), yet the very 'loco' that really needs it didn't have it. At very least it should have been introduced when the SD Mk3s were introduced.

[Covkid]

4 hours ago, Islesy said:

Sorry to burst your bubble there @frobisher, but to date there are absolute no plans at Hornby to update the Mk3 tooling for the HST stock, which is a combination of Lima and Hornby tooling. I did the Mk3SDs as a one off project at Hornby and the original idea was to combine with the Oxford tooling, but within five minutes it was obvious that that couldn't happen, as everything below the body is out of scale and with the wrong angles - they really are woeful (the Oxford measurements were wrongly scaled at 1:76, not 1:76.2, which resulted in some stunning mismatches). The other thing to remember is that although the Mk3SD under frame is absolutely correct, the cabinets would still need to be changed, as there were a number of very specific changes made as part of the Wabtec upgrade.

Plans at H may have changed, and there may be other sharks in the water by now, but the Mk3s are fair game in both HST and locomotive hauled versions in my opinion (and that is my opinion, not an Accurascale statement )

 

Frankly,  I think people need to consider very carefully what the benefit would be to Accurascale for this mammoth proposal. Have to admit that I am not the greatest fan of HSTs, but they do provide a fantastic ride for the passengers - peaceful and totally bereft of noise and vibrations through the carpets. Look at what they are though, and how they got to 2021.  Just as an example, look at the XC HST fleet.  There are five sets in the fleet which run in 2+7 formation, with a few trailers from when they were ordered as 2+8.  Arriva ordered these refurbished HST sets in 2007 and a number of redundant LHCS neded to be converted at that time.  Therefore, at the last count each one of XC's five HSTs was / is formed of a mix of ex HST and ex LHCS trailers, owned by two different ROSCOs. All the five catering vehicles 45001-45005 are a unique ex LHCS design    

 

The last formation information is

XC01 41193 45001 42342 42097 42377 42380 44021

XC02 41194 45002 42???   42037 42234 42371 44072 

XC03 41195 45003 42370 42378 42290 42376 44052

XC04 41026 45004 42375 42369 42051 42366 44012

XC05 41035 45005 42373 42368 42374 42379 44017

 

XC02 was an exam set at this time hence 42??? but 19 of those vehicles listed above are ex LHCS.

 

The point of this is Accurascale are known to strive to be as acccurate as possible, so even to represent the five XC sets tbey would have an absolute load of investment to make in tooling to enter the marketplace alongside Lima, Jouef, Hornby and Oxford. 

[Henners84]

This was started as more an aspirational thread written by a customer who loves what accurascale does, rather than suggesting this would an incredible business opportunity for them. 

However, if there is an opportunity for competition in the hst space, surely now is the time...? 

1. Hornbys product is tired and I expect various people would appreciate an update. Downsides to me are (in this order)... Close coupling is poor (particularly on power cars), coaches very much lack detail, appearance quite plastic like. 

2. Hornby have undersupplied the market leading to large secondhand prices on ebay. 

3. Currently HSTs are in their twilight period in operation. We've seen lots of special liveries and tributes from train companies the last few years as they were being phased out of mainline service but also the same will come again when eventually (although I assume reasonably soon) be phased out of more local service also. 

4. It appears many people buy more than one set (check out the guys on YouTube who seem to have multiple sets) 

5. Given the average age of people in our hobby, the 'fashion' for modeling (aside from the pre grouping spike) I suspect is in BR blue right now (there certainly seems to be a lot of interest in this era). I suspect that those are the trains the 'average' modeller remembers from their childhood. Going forwards I suspect the next big trend will be in sectorisation and into privatisation as modellers build what they recall from their youth. If this is correct, a good hst product should sell very well for a large amount of time as we are only at the beginning of hst in modelling circles. 

6. The above applies to mk3 coaches as well as hst sets. Investment in mk3 tooling may prove quite cost effective in terms of other products available. Possibly there could be other spin offs eg mk3 based nse EMUs and other products? 

Maybe wishful thinking from me but there could be benefit in accurascale taking a look into this if they have not already. 

 

[BR Blue]

I would also link to run a fully matching set with a TGS that matches the other coaches and ideally have a Restaurant car that has roof vents.  

 

Finally the capitals key is usually found on the left hand side of the keyboard, very handy when typing HST.

[TravisM]

I’m a huge fan of Accurascale but I do have a few worries that they may overstretch themselves trying to accommodate modellers wants and wishes.

 

I think Accurascale have enough on their plate presently, so requests for a HST, all it’s variations might be the straw that breaks the camels back and we’ll all be disappointed.  I’ve always said that Accurascale could churn out Class 37’s in multiple varieties for years to come and never run out of ideas.

[Henners84]

34 minutes ago, BR Blue said:

I would also link to run a fully matching set with a TGS that matches the other coaches and ideally have a Restaurant car that has roof vents.  

 

Finally the capitals key is usually found on the left hand side of the keyboard, very handy when typing HST.

Forgot that the tgs doesn't match the rest of the rake. Not bothered about caps as convinced the meaning is understood whether caps or not

[Monkersson]

57 minutes ago, Henners84 said:

This was started as more an aspirational thread written by a customer who loves what accurascale does, rather than suggesting this would an incredible business opportunity for them. 

However, if there is an opportunity for competition in the hst space, surely now is the time...? 

1. Hornbys product is tired and I expect various people would appreciate an update. Downsides to me are (in this order)... Close coupling is poor (particularly on power cars), coaches very much lack detail, appearance quite plastic like. 

2. Hornby have undersupplied the market leading to large secondhand prices on ebay. 

3. Currently HSTs are in their twilight period in operation. We've seen lots of special liveries and tributes from train companies the last few years as they were being phased out of mainline service but also the same will come again when eventually (although I assume reasonably soon) be phased out of more local service also. 

4. It appears many people buy more than one set (check out the guys on YouTube who seem to have multiple sets) 

5. Given the average age of people in our hobby, the 'fashion' for modeling (aside from the pre grouping spike) I suspect is in BR blue right now (there certainly seems to be a lot of interest in this era). I suspect that those are the trains the 'average' modeller remembers from their childhood. Going forwards I suspect the next big trend will be in sectorisation and into privatisation as modellers build what they recall from their youth. If this is correct, a good hst product should sell very well for a large amount of time as we are only at the beginning of hst in modelling circles. 

6. The above applies to mk3 coaches as well as hst sets. Investment in mk3 tooling may prove quite cost effective in terms of other products available. Possibly there could be other spin offs eg mk3 based nse EMUs and other products? 

Maybe wishful thinking from me but there could be benefit in accurascale taking a look into this if they have not already. 

 

I've no doubt Accurascale would do a great job of the HST, but what leaps forward can they make to Hornby's rendition, coaches aside?

 

The only improvements I could see would be slightly finer mouldings, better bogies and underframe.  Thats about it really, would be a nicer model but not the leap forward that the 37/55/92 are?  This isn't an attack on Accurascale's abilitiies.  The power cars don't seem to have been festooned with a myriad of detail differences that you find in a fleet of stand alone locomotives of that era.

 

The lack of close coupling is something you could sort out yourself.

 

People may bleat on about Hornby's HST being a cash cow, why shouldn't it be?  If it brings in profit for Hornby then great, they need the revenue to survive.  

[The Ghost of IKB]

Isnt there already a thread for discussing suggestions for new models?

If we all decide to start a seperate thread for our individual favourite model theyd be at least 100 new topics by this time tomorrow, and all of them would be filled with pointless speculation and arguement. This should be combined into the other thread

 

[AY Mod]

8 minutes ago, The Ghost of IKB said:

Isnt there already a thread for discussing suggestions for new models?

 

Correct.